Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby nitramluap » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:20 pm

trickle wrote:If you have been racing since the late 80's early 90's you should have told Fabio casartelli how useless helmets are and how great a job the human skull does all by it's self


I'm opposed to mandatory helmet laws, not helmets. There is a subtle difference - see if you can spot it. I always wear a helmet racing - more to protect my scalp from lacerations and grazes on the off-chance I fall (I've not fallen off a bicycle since I was 10 years old...and there were no helmets back then - how did all those children survive!?). I understand the physics of what they can and can not protect me from and I ride accordingly.

trickle wrote:Bet his family would love to hear your views!


It is an insult to his family to even suggest that wearing a polystyrene hat would have made any difference. You do realise he was travelling at approximately 80km/h at impact and the senior tour Doctor said a helmet would have made no difference whatsoever. It gives the family far more comfort knowing that no helmet (motorcycle or otherwise) would have made the slightest difference; but feel free to spread the gospel.

Have you even read the AS/NZS2063 Standard for bicycle helmets and the testing procedures (AS/NZS2512) - very similar to the EN1078 standard? I bet you haven't... The testing procedure includes impact test(s) at only 19.5km/h and the helmet has to only not 'fail' (ie. crack) to pass the test.

trickle wrote:And there you go again, defending yourself breaking a law. You are not experienced, just lucky... so far.

There is no such thing as luck, or faeries, or god(s) or leprechauns but feel free to believe.

By the way, the other fellow in the video has a medical certificate to allow him to ride without a helmet - I suppose you have a problem with that? How do you know I don't have one too... :)
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by BNA » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:57 pm

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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby trickle » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:57 pm

You something SOMETHING SOMETHING.

You profess all this knowledge but really you are caught in your own hype.

I'm opposed to mandatory helmet laws, not helmets. There is a subtle difference - see if you can spot it. I always wear a helmet racing - more to protect my scalp from lacerations and grazes on the off-chance I fall (I've not fallen off a bicycle since I was 10 years old...and there were no helmets back then - how did all those children survive!?). I understand the physics of what they can and can not protect me from and I ride accordingly.


You are damned straight I believe that a helmet would have made a difference, regardless of what "the tour doctor" said... why else do you think they are now mandatory on our roads, pro tours club crits etc etc etc? Spose you are right though, motor bike helmets cause more deaths than they do save, bit like seat belts. Damn nuisance those things are, what do I need them for? the windscreen will catch me right? Bit like " I understand the physics of what my mango can protect me from so I ride on the wrong side of the road, tin tops got nothin' on me"

It is an insult to his family to even suggest that wearing a polystyrene hat would have made any difference. You do realise he was travelling at approximately 80km/h at impact and the senior tour Doctor said a helmet would have made no difference whatsoever. It gives the family far more comfort knowing that no helmet (motorcycle or otherwise) would have made the slightest difference; but feel free to spread the gospel.
Have you even read the AS/NZS2063 Standard for bicycle helmets and the testing procedures (AS/NZS2512) - very similar to the EN1078 standard? I bet you haven't... The testing procedure includes impact test(s) at only 19.5km/h and the helmet has to only not 'fail' (ie. crack) to pass the test


SOMETHING
, bet you wore a helmet during your karting days.... even though you know they would never save your knoggin in a crash.
Give me a break helmets AND road rules are there to limit the risk of death and injury not to make things more helpful to you and your hippy beliefs or save you from a bad hair day at the office.

There is no such thing as luck, or faeries, or god(s) or leprechauns but feel free to believe.
By the way, the other fellow in the video has a medical certificate to allow him to ride without a helmet - I suppose you have a problem with that? How do you know I don't have one too...


Something something something
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:36 pm

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G'Day Peoples.

Tone it down and stay on topic or the big stick comes out.
No personal abuse and the hemlet debates can go on in the safety section.

Shaun
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby Rando » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:15 pm

Hey Nitramluap, (whatever that means...)

Incredible video man, such a pleasure to watch.

I had no idea you were expecting a velo mobile.

You didn't answer my question, but showed up with this brilliant video. well done.

Sorry some people got sidetracked and lost the marvelousness.
I suspect unrecognised jealousy is a major cause.

You make my recent attempt at streamlining all the more pertinent. I must try again.
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby John Lewis » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:50 pm

Went off and looked over all the Mango vids. Very interesting indeed. I found the walk around facinating.
I couldn't quite fathom how the suspension worked. Love to have the chance to have a close up look but I'm too far away for that.
Not restarting on helmets but a funny thought struck me. Riding the velo is like having a full body helmet. :D :D .
Seriously though, if you were so unfortunate as to tip over is the shell strong enough to take it and save your hide?
I get the impression it is all carbon so perhapsmore of a problem than fibreglass to do repairs.
Interestingly I saw on the Mango site that its weight is about 25kg. That is about the same weight as my home built DeltaWolf trike.
All the best, Hope this cyclone doesnt cause you more grief.

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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby nitramluap » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:10 pm

John Lewis wrote:Went off and looked over all the Mango vids. Very interesting indeed. I found the walk around facinating.
I couldn't quite fathom how the suspension worked. Love to have the chance to have a close up look but I'm too far away for that.
Not restarting on helmets but a funny thought struck me. Riding the velo is like having a full body helmet. :D :D .
Seriously though, if you were so unfortunate as to tip over is the shell strong enough to take it and save your hide?
I get the impression it is all carbon so perhapsmore of a problem than fibreglass to do repairs.
Interestingly I saw on the Mango site that its weight is about 25kg. That is about the same weight as my home built DeltaWolf trike.
All the best, Hope this cyclone doesnt cause you more grief.

John


Thanks, John.

The shell is predominantly fibreglass but it is strengthened in places with carbon fibre - most noticeably the 'bridge' which hides the steering linkages you can see on the interior. Much of the interior trim is carbon-fibre as well. The join between the top (red section) and bottom (white) of the Mango is a thick and quite rigid 'seam'. The shell is also reinforced just behind the seat with a fibreglass/carbon fibre cross-beam. If it tipped, the shell would certainly prevent any road rash and I could keep my head off the ground but a helmet to prevent a nice graze is a good idea - just in case. It would make a real mess of the body though.

I've not tipped it and I spent the first few days practicing in a empty carpark for hours at a time. I deliberately pushed the limit to get a feel for how it handles in different scenarios - testing braking distances, the point of tipping, etc. - but away from anyone or anything.

Thanks for the wishes regarding the cyclone.

Cheers,
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby nitramluap » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:24 pm

Rando wrote:
Incredible video man, such a pleasure to watch.
I had no idea you were expecting a velo mobile.
You didn't answer my question, but showed up with this brilliant video. well done.

Sorry some people got sidetracked and lost the marvelousness.
I suspect unrecognised jealousy is a major cause.

You make my recent attempt at streamlining all the more pertinent. I must try again.


Thanks Rando.
I'm sure our paths will cross. I'd love to see your Copenhagen Pederson out and about one day too. If you head to the track again in the future with your recumbent, let me know and I'll try and make it (perhaps PM me).

Cheers!
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby nitramluap » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:14 am

Rando wrote:Hey Nitramluap, (whatever that means...)


Hi Rando,

I't just my name backwards - nothing special (although some people feel like Sherlock Holmes when they work it out). I chose it as Paul Martin is such a common name that I can never have that username. It appears too that nitramluap is quite popular so I'm not the only one around any more.

I don't need to hide on the internet, particularly as threats & abuse here are treated as seriously as threats & abuse in real life. I have had someone charged following a personal threat in the past - they behaved slightly differently in real life, in front of the magistrate. In real life he was quite a nice person and yet was abusive online - much like how people change their behaviour when they get behind the wheel of a car...
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby Rando » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:58 am

Hi Paul, yeah I'll let you know if I go out there again.
It was mostly just a vacation exercise for new bike practice, and it worked well.
My commute is more than enough riding in general; I do 40km per day if I do the whole thing, but lately I've taken to driving the dangerous bit and just enjoying the bike path remainder. This is much less stress, but is only 20 km per day.
I like Murrarie because I can forget about traffic and get submerged in the exercise 'zone'. Mornings work well for this, but some afternoons have people going the wrong way and kids with no rules.
My confidence on the recumbent improved a lot from the track practice, and I have relaxed the arms a lot.
I still unclip and sit up for some slow tricky work like zig zag 'gates' and such. That's when the third wheel must be handy...
and slippery paths with leaves still give a bit more adrenalin since a heavy fall under brakes once (off the Dahon).
I ponder some skidpan training...
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby nitramluap » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:18 am

Rando wrote:Hi Paul, yeah I'll let you know if I go out there again.
It was mostly just a vacation exercise for new bike practice, and it worked well.
My commute is more than enough riding in general; I do 40km per day if I do the whole thing, but lately I've taken to driving the dangerous bit and just enjoying the bike path remainder. This is much less stress, but is only 20 km per day.
I like Murrarie because I can forget about traffic and get submerged in the exercise 'zone'. Mornings work well for this, but some afternoons have people going the wrong way and kids with no rules.
My confidence on the recumbent improved a lot from the track practice, and I have relaxed the arms a lot.
I still unclip and sit up for some slow tricky work like zig zag 'gates' and such. That's when the third wheel must be handy...
and slippery paths with leaves still give a bit more adrenalin since a heavy fall under brakes once (off the Dahon).
I ponder some skidpan training...


I prefer riding on the bikeways to the roads as well - much less stressful and generally they are in a better condition (except after the floods...) - I only wish there were more of them and they were better connected!

My ride to work is 20km each way as well but I don't do it in the Mango. I take my upright Gazelle and take my time. It is lovely ride and I'm on the bikeway for all but 1km of the journey.

The third wheel makes an enormous difference, particularly when things get tight - clearly I can stop or ride very, very slowly without falling over. I didn't realise you were riding a recumbent bicycle rather than a trike. I can imagine that would take practice and I can see why you'd prefer to do that on the track! The trike is probably easy to master in comparison!

Cheers,
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby Comedian » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:57 am

nitramluap wrote:
Rando wrote:Hey Nitramluap, (whatever that means...)


Hi Rando,

I't just my name backwards - nothing special (although some people feel like Sherlock Holmes when they work it out). I chose it as Paul Martin is such a common name that I can never have that username. It appears too that nitramluap is quite popular so I'm not the only one around any more.

Lysdexics of the world, UNTIE! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby nitramluap » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:16 am

Comedian wrote:Lysdexics of the world, UNTIE! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


LOL :lol:
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby Rando » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:21 pm

and maybe you heard about the dyslexic insomniac agnostic, who lay awake wondering if there really was a dog... :?
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby RosscoG » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:57 am

Hey Paul,
Passed you the other sat out on the centenary bikeway (going opposite directions not saying that I passed past you!).
Very cool mate!
We talked about it all the way in to the city. "what is the advantage, does it really make that much difference?" was the general questions by the group.
Now I will send them to your vid and ask them the question back ;)
They are still unsure of my bent too though, Q. "is that really comfortable?" A. "Is your couch?"

Made me miss mine even more! (just apart for integrity check and repaint)
I was just another gawking DFer :(

Will give you a hey next time we pass.

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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby nitramluap » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:57 am

RosscoG wrote:Hey Paul,
Passed you the other sat out on the centenary bikeway (going opposite directions not saying that I passed past you!).
Very cool mate!
We talked about it all the way in to the city. "what is the advantage, does it really make that much difference?" was the general questions by the group.
Now I will send them to your vid and ask them the question back ;)
They are still unsure of my bent too though, Q. "is that really comfortable?" A. "Is your couch?"

Made me miss mine even more! (just apart for integrity check and repaint)
I was just another gawking DFer :(

Will give you a hey next time we pass.

Rossco


Hi Rossco,

Definitely say hello the next time we pass (just don't stop me at the bottom of a hill :wink: )

It is clearly a little more effort on the hills - it weighs just under 30kg so I have to move a larger mass - but it is by no means impossible and I'm not much slower than many roadies. I can manage a 10% slope without stopping at about 10km/h but I've not needed to do this for more than 500m. I'll try Mt Coot-tha one day to see how I go for a longer climb.

I find that I can pedal more effectively than on a road bike (particularly on the 'back'/upstroke). However, it is clear that the real difference is aerodynamics. While the frontal area may be similar more than a person on a road bike, the drag coefficient is much, much lower due to the smooth, streamlined body. You really notice this on the flat, slight inclines and most definitely downhill!

I haven't had a change to really work out the numbers but at a cadence of about 150 in top gear, I am doing about 70km/h. At that speed it is very important not to wobble, particularly on a trike as I don't have the gyroscopic stabilising effect of the wheels like an upright. As a result, I generally don't pedal too hard at such speeds, focussing on smooth, gentle steering inputs, balance & obstacle avoidance instead.

RosscoG wrote:Q. "is that really comfortable?" A. "Is your couch?"


Haha. Good response!

I'd be happy to show you the bike in more detail if we cross paths again.

Cheers,

Paul
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby RosscoG » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:30 am

PM me when your going to hit Cootha and I will come along.
I went out and just looked at it a few times before committing. I didn't beat any records, but had a blast.
I have done it several times since. There is some allure to a mountain that I have never felt to just hills before.
The intrepidness was just silly, but came from people saying "have you tried to do Cootha on that thing?". I just took it easy and it was no prob at all.
I went clockwise, which is probably easier on a heavy bike and the rollers across the top are very rewarding on a bent even in that way with the uphill average.
One note/warning I would give is watch the decent! I didn't realise at first that I was over 70 by the first corner before trying to peel off speed and my brakes were cooking by the bottom even using them correctly. I talked to a DFer afterwards and he was surprised I used brakes! "nah, just let it roll, you don't get too fast" Even if I raced him down I would use brakes and I'm sure still win. If I managed the first corner without braking, I would not achieve the second.
I have seen video of a bunch of velomobiles going down some serious mountains (looked like somewhere in the Alps, don't remember) and they had little drogue shoots deployed for control, very good solution in extreme conditions.
How are your brakes set up? and I assume you have wider tyres too? This should avoid excess pressure from heat at least, as it did on mine.
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby nitramluap » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:02 pm

RosscoG wrote:PM me when your going to hit Cootha and I will come along.


Will do.

I was thinking about heading up anti-clockwise but I guess that would mean I'd be hitting greater speeds on the way down... Your recommendation of doing it clockwise is sensible but I'd have to really watch my speed in the corners so as to not tip it.

Distance-wise, Mt Coot-tha is short so I don't think I'd need a small 'chute although I have seen that clip and I think it would be a sensible idea for a long descent (as long as it doesn't get tangled in anything!).

The other thing I'm worried about is the timing. I don't want to be going down at speed if the place is packed with cyclists - could be a bit tight, yet I don't want to do it when it is full of cars, that's even worse!

The brakes are 90mm Sturmey-Archer drum brakes (each front wheel). If I ride them at great speed they will overheat but short bursts of braking is fine (same as a car really). I can remove my wheel covers to aid cooling but if I don't let the speed get away on me early I will be fine. I opted for the drums over the disc brakes as the disc brakes were hydraulic and both brakes were linked the one fluid reservoir (to ensure even braking). The downside to this is obvious - a leak in a hydraulic line means NO brakes at all. The drums also require minimal maintenance and a great no matter what the weather.
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby Comedian » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:25 pm

Rando wrote:and maybe you heard about the dyslexic insomniac agnostic, who lay awake wondering if there really was a dog... :?

I'm a paid up member of DNA - the National Dyslexics Association. :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby Comedian » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:31 pm

nitramluap wrote:I find that I can pedal more effectively than on a road bike (particularly on the 'back'/upstroke). However, it is clear that the real difference is aerodynamics. While the frontal area may be similar more than a person on a road bike, the drag coefficient is much, much lower due to the smooth, streamlined body. You really notice this on the flat, slight inclines and most definitely downhill!

Paul - has anyone tested the mango's drag coefficient? Total frontal area is one thing, but the drag coefficient is another. I suspect the cover would help quite a bit. The Lotus Elite from 1957 was .29 which was a record. If you have a look at one of those the key thing is that all the mechanicals are enclosed and up out of the airstream. It makes them a total bitch to work on but they managed astonishing performance from what was really just an alloy fire pump engine.

Interestingly it's only now that production cars are starting to match the Elite. I see many similarities in the mango in the way they have enclosed things and the airflow separation techniques at the back.
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby nitramluap » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:40 pm

Comedian wrote:Paul - has anyone tested the mango's drag coefficient? Total frontal area is one thing, but the drag coefficient is another. I suspect the cover would help quite a bit. The Lotus Elite from 1957 was .29 which was a record. If you have a look at one of those the key thing is that all the mechanicals are enclosed and up out of the airstream. It makes them a total bitch to work on but they managed astonishing performance from what was really just an alloy fire pump engine.

Interestingly it's only now that production cars are starting to match the Elite. I see many similarities in the mango in the way they have enclosed things and the airflow separation techniques at the back.


Hi Comedian,

Funnily enough, they have:
http://www.velofilie.nl/Wind.htm
It appears the coefficient of drag is 0.3, which is high compared to the Quest velmobile at 0.22! I had not known these figures until your query prompted me to search for them. The frontal area of the Mango is about 0.4m^2

That great blogger in The Netherlands, David Hembrow, has modified the Kreuzotter Calculator to include the Mango as well:
http://www.hembrow.eu/personal/kreuzotter/espeed.htm

That Lotus Elite is amazing.
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby Comedian » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:47 pm

nitramluap wrote:
Comedian wrote:Paul - has anyone tested the mango's drag coefficient? Total frontal area is one thing, but the drag coefficient is another. I suspect the cover would help quite a bit. The Lotus Elite from 1957 was .29 which was a record. If you have a look at one of those the key thing is that all the mechanicals are enclosed and up out of the airstream. It makes them a total bitch to work on but they managed astonishing performance from what was really just an alloy fire pump engine.

Interestingly it's only now that production cars are starting to match the Elite. I see many similarities in the mango in the way they have enclosed things and the airflow separation techniques at the back.


Hi Comedian,

Funnily enough, they have:
http://www.velofilie.nl/Wind.htm
It appears the coefficient of drag is 0.3, which is high compared to the Quest velmobile at 0.22! I had not known these figures until your query prompted me to search for them. The frontal area of the Mango is about 0.4m^2

That great blogger in The Netherlands, David Hembrow, has modified the Kreuzotter Calculator to include the Mango as well:
http://www.hembrow.eu/personal/kreuzotter/espeed.htm

That Lotus Elite is amazing.


The question now is what is the frontal area of the Quest? Because if it has greater frontal area than the mango then it may still have more resistance. I've just looked and it does look very laid down so it's frontal area might be pretty good.

Still, the factors involved are more than just C/D. Weight, rolling resistance, visibility, drivetrain efficiency, comfort etc must be evaluated.
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby nitramluap » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:50 pm

Comedian wrote:Still, the factors involved are more than just C/D. Weight, rolling resistance, visibility, drivetrain efficiency, comfort etc must be evaluated.


I don't suppose you know someone with a wind tunnel? :D
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Thought train...

Postby william » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:43 pm

Hey Paul,

I still like watching that vid. The few I've seen here in Melb have been race prototypes and Ben Goodall's RotoVelo.

One of the employees of Abbotsford Cycles in their Yarraville branch, Mark, has a Rotovelo and offered me a ride. Soooo tempted but declined due to the fact I may not return.
After your video I kicked myself for not taking the opportunity. Still, I go past there nearly everyday and I'm sure the offer would be open. His comments about the ride is the crazy lack of wind resistance and how the speed just builds up. He's got his specked with a Rohlhoff and I, and he, doesn't know what the light in front is but Super Bright.

At the moment he's using it to travel to work from Melb's inner northern suburbs to the western suburbs. A mean feat on its own . It takes him 35 mins in the velo and 1 hour in the car.

He has had no other recumbent experience other than seeing a few from the Audax riders and after seeing a few at the Melbourne bike expo he said he just had to have one.

Anyway, if I get that test ride I'll let you know.

By the way, how was your thought process in deciding on the Velomobile, especially the Mango.

william.
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Re: Thought train...

Postby nitramluap » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:29 pm

william wrote:By the way, how was your thought process in deciding on the Velomobile, especially the Mango.


Thanks for the comments, William.

My thought process, after seeing an image of a Velomobile, was something like, "I want one!".

The long version is here: http://www.sydneycyclist.com/forum/topics/i-bought-another-dutch-bike :)

Cheers,

Paul
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Re: Murrarie track training, Brisbane.

Postby Rando » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:15 pm

and just for the record, I now see it's possible to go and remove posts when the heat of the moment has passed. Useful for those of us with human tendencies. Thanks Trickle. Sure it's not jealousy?
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