Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby martinjs » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:09 pm

GraemeL wrote:I think as adults, we should have the right to choose.

Graeme


But here's the real question, to choose what? I've heard this statement time and time again, but not just when it comes to MHLs but other choices such as: not wearing safety belts, not wearing motor cycle helmets, the right to smoke and such, where do we draw the line? and who decides?

Even in the other discussion regarding driving 4wd's in the city and having bull bars fitted, the right to bare arms, where does it end?

Not that simple when all the questions are asked is it?

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by BNA » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:38 am

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The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby Comedian » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:38 am

martinjs wrote:
GraemeL wrote:I think as adults, we should have the right to choose.

Graeme


But here's the real question, to choose what? I've heard this statement time and time again, but not just when it comes to MHLs but other choices such as: not wearing safety belts, not wearing motor cycle helmets, the right to smoke and such, where do we draw the line? and who decides?

Even in the other discussion regarding driving 4wd's in the city and having bull bars fitted, the right to bare arms, where does it end?

Not that simple when all the questions are asked is it?

Martin

It is a statement of fact that if it were mandated that we had to wear helmets in cars we would save far more lives than are killed by bicycle use in total each year.

However, it's my opinion that if the persons drafting the law think it's a good idea it will be done. MHL for cars would be immensely unpopular so it ain't going to happen despite to societal benefit.

If you rounded up every bike rider and convinced them to vote one way or another we wouldn't even register as a political swing. So, by being a minority we have no say :(
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby snydas22 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:15 am

Can anyone help me find an australian dealer who sells the Casco Warp track sprint helmets or any brand that make that style(track sprint skull cap) of helmet?
Cheers any advice would be helpful as i want to be able to use this helmet in Aus but i can only find Uk or japanese, USA etc and im sure they wont pass Aus standards.Snydas22
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:10 am

snydas22 wrote:Can anyone help me find an australian dealer who sells the Casco Warp track sprint helmets or any brand that make that style(track sprint skull cap) of helmet?
Cheers any advice would be helpful as i want to be able to use this helmet in Aus but i can only find Uk or japanese, USA etc and im sure they wont pass Aus standards.Snydas22

If you're planning on using this for track racing, it's my understanding that Australian Standards and compulsory helmet laws don't apply, only whatever rules that Cyclesport Australia and the race organisers might set.
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:12 pm

il padrone wrote:
snydas22 wrote:Can anyone help me find an australian dealer who sells the Casco Warp track sprint helmets or any brand that make that style(track sprint skull cap) of helmet?
Cheers any advice would be helpful as i want to be able to use this helmet in Aus but i can only find Uk or japanese, USA etc and im sure they wont pass Aus standards.Snydas22

If you're planning on using this for track racing, it's my understanding that Australian Standards and compulsory helmet laws don't apply, only whatever rules that Cyclesport Australia and the race organisers might set.


Cycling Australia say you have to wear an Australian Standards approved helmet. I wear my normal helmet on the road and on the track.

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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:34 pm

So are these fancy, slim-line TT helmets AS approved? I'd be amazed that they have enough volume for impact absorption.

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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby twizzle » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:55 am

GraemeL wrote:I think as adults, we should have the right to choose.

Graeme


Yeah - that's what Americans say about guns, and look at where it got them.
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby human909 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:27 pm

twizzle wrote:
GraemeL wrote:I think as adults, we should have the right to choose.

Graeme


Yeah - that's what Americans say about guns, and look at where it got them.


Guns, in particular handguns are DESIGNED to harm/kill people. Helmets are designed to protect people I struggle to see how you can make such a comparison.
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby damhooligan » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:03 pm

human909 wrote:
twizzle wrote:
GraemeL wrote:I think as adults, we should have the right to choose.

Graeme


Yeah - that's what Americans say about guns, and look at where it got them.


Guns, in particular handguns are DESIGNED to harm/kill people. Helmets are designed to protect people I struggle to see how you can make such a comparison.


but but but ; Guns are designed to harm those that wanna harm you, so they are there, just like helmets to protect yourself.

And if you say guns are only deadly if they are used wrong, well so are helmets. (example)


But yeah , helmets and guns are very different, and not really the same thing.
So that comparison is not a good one..
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby Aushiker » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:08 pm

damhooligan wrote:So that comparison is not a good one..


The comment/example was about adults making choices so I would have thought a very relevant and appropriate example.

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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby damhooligan » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:39 pm

Aushiker wrote:
damhooligan wrote:So that comparison is not a good one..


The comment/example was about adults making choices so I would have thought a very relevant and appropriate example.

Andrew


No , it's not about 'just' adults making choices.
It is also what they are making choices about.
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby Aushiker » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:54 pm

damhooligan wrote:
Aushiker wrote:
damhooligan wrote:So that comparison is not a good one..


The comment/example was about adults making choices so I would have thought a very relevant and appropriate example.

Andrew


No , it's not about 'just' adults making choices.
It is also what they are making choices about.


Yep ... sorry but not sure what you point is ...

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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby damhooligan » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:17 pm

Aushiker wrote:
damhooligan wrote:
Aushiker wrote:
The comment/example was about adults making choices so I would have thought a very relevant and appropriate example.

Andrew


No , it's not about 'just' adults making choices.
It is also what they are making choices about.


Yep ... sorry but not sure what you point is ...

Andrew


O.k., i try again.. :D

adults making choices about guns
adults making choices about helmets
adults making choices about strawberries
adults making choices about lemonade
adults making choices about (insert word of choice...)

The above all have in common 'adults making choices' , but because the reason of making the choice is different , none of the above are the same,
so imho you can't compare them with each other.

Hope that helps getting my thought across, if not, wel then I give up.. :D
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:20 pm

Maybe because a bad choice with one item may lead to harm to oneself. With the other, a bad choice will lead to harm to another. :roll:
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby notwal » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:22 am

Naaa. I prefer a good conscientious, socially minded, informed, and accountable government to make my decisions for me.
If I wasn't compelled to wear a helmet I probably wouldn't. I would probably live dangerously and enjoy the wind in my hair and a weight off my neck, but no, I would have been killed 23 years ago.

MHLs are not onerous. I'm glad we've got them. It's too easy to make the choice to be fatally wrong for trivial reasons.
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The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby Comedian » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:05 pm

notwal wrote:Naaa. I prefer a good conscientious, socially minded, informed, and accountable government to make my decisions for me.
If I wasn't compelled to wear a helmet I probably wouldn't. I would probably live dangerously and enjoy the wind in my hair and a weight off my neck, but no, I would have been killed 23 years ago.

MHLs are not onerous. I'm glad we've got them. It's too easy to make the choice to be fatally wrong for trivial reasons.

That's right. We would rather they lead sickly lives up until they die of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease. That's progress for you. :)
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby martinjs » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:10 pm

Comedian wrote:
notwal wrote:Naaa. I prefer a good conscientious, socially minded, informed, and accountable government to make my decisions for me.
If I wasn't compelled to wear a helmet I probably wouldn't. I would probably live dangerously and enjoy the wind in my hair and a weight off my neck, but no, I would have been killed 23 years ago.

MHLs are not onerous. I'm glad we've got them. It's too easy to make the choice to be fatally wrong for trivial reasons.

That's right. We would rather they lead sickly lives up until they die of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease. That's progress for you. :)


They don't need to, they can take 5 seconds of their lives, stick a helmet on their heads and off they go to a better healthier life. If they don't have a bike or helmet a lot of shops do package deales. :D

That was easy, now I'm fit and healthy and wearing a helmet. 8) :wink:

Trouble is it's all about frame of mind and really has nothing to do with the helmet at all. :(

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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby mylesau » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:25 pm

martinjs wrote:Trouble is it's all about frame of mind and really has nothing to do with the helmet at all. :(

Well said!
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby damhooligan » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:55 pm

mylesau wrote:
martinjs wrote:Trouble is it's all about frame of mind and really has nothing to do with the helmet at all. :(

Well said!


Nah, I dissagree.

I have my frame of mine adjusted to it.
I wanna ride my bike, and the law is simple,so i wear a helmet.
Now I am used to riding with a helmet.

But is stil don't like the helmet, and i never wil.
I simply am not convinced the helmet is making cycling safer.

A lot of people simply don't like the helmet, and being forced to wear it if you wanna ride a bike ,is in my opinion wrong.
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:50 pm

There was an ad on the cretiniser last night with a young woman with brain damage from a smokebox crash suggesting no one should buy a smokebox without curtain airbags. Why not go the MHL for cars as well? If it only saves one life it will be worth it...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby mylesau » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:18 pm

I think some of the problems arising from helmet 'discussions' come from the 'discussion' not always being about the helmet or helmet laws.

There are those who think they should have the choice to wear or not to wear a helmet, but that is more about the state of our laws not specifically helmet laws. The example provided earlier about the gun law highlights this. There are many similar laws.

If someone wants the choice to wear or not to wear a helmet, how is that different from someone wanting the choice to wear or not to wear a seatbelt, carry a gun, drive on the wrong side of the road or even to murder someone (yes a bit extreme)? Who or what dictates that the helmet law should be different from all these other enforced laws? The answer, in the end, is that WE do. WE, as a community, have passed a law to wear helmets. Whether I, as an individual, or 'you' (no one in particular) as an individual, agree or disagree that we should wear helmets is irrelevant to the argument. It is what WE agree upon that matters.

From all the helmet 'discussions' I have read and some, participated in, the one common theme is that WE all don't agree. Even about things like the number of people who say they won't ride a bike because they don't want to wear a helmet - canvas some people you know who don't ride bikes - I've yet to find anyone who uses this as a reason for not riding a bike - others indicate that there are many people who do?

Personally I know there are times when I wear a helmet, for example whilst touring on a quiet back county road and even my daily commute which is mostly back roads, that there is little to be gained by wearing the helmet. If I had the choice in these cases I would probably not wear a helmet. However there are other times where I would choose to wear a helmet due to the traffic, or conditions, or where I think setting an example to children is important.

At the end of the day I just wear the helmet and enjoy the ride.

What's my point - I really don't know, is there really any point in the whole helmet discussion?
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby Xplora » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:36 pm

mylesau wrote:WE, as a community, have passed a law to wear helmets.

Political science teaches us that this is not correct. The State has passed a law. Democracy is simply choosing the people who will oppress you. I did not ask for a helmet law. I was not old enough to vote when the helmet law was passed. We, as a community, are too apathetic and too shortsighted to fight against such control - worth remembering that the recent ALP NSW Govt was supposed to be out on its bum 8 years ago except for political suicide by the Libs, with Brogden and Denham, before the last two elections. I refuse to believe that the community is really that involved in the law making process. We are told the results of studies, without serious consideration of the alternatives, and opponents are shouted down rather than given a chance to talk and reason with the public. It has happened with the climate change debate, it will happen with anything that allows politicians to control us.

There are much more important social ills that need addressing before bicycle helmets. The comment that helmets would save lives in cars is the most compelling one I know. Car drivers wouldn't stand for it. And yet - cyclists are forced to use them despite needing them once every 5 years? :?: Liberty is important. :!:
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby mylesau » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:58 pm

Xplora wrote:Liberty is important. :!:

Agree. Which is a much wider discussion than helmet laws.

Apathy is a major problem. Having been around for a while I disagree that we have no say in laws. If it's important enough WE can find our voice. But as you suggest, helmet laws don't really rate.
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby human909 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:07 pm

Laws, in general, remove freedoms. Unless there is a clear and just reason to infringe on a citizens freedom then the law shouldn't be passed. Speeding laws make sense as unsafe driving can infringe on the fundamental rights of others. Helmet laws do not.

Unfortunately, in Australia we most of us have very little concept of freedom and we are more than happy to let our government dictate our lives. Hence more and more we live in a nanny state and politicians do what they do best and force their will on others.

Helmets are not mandatory in hundreds of other more dangerous and risky activities where they could be far more beneficial. Why is cycling singled out? (Probably because when it was passed cycling was seen as a activity mainly for children.)
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Re: The one (and only) HELMET THREAD

Postby Comedian » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:10 pm

martinjs wrote:
They don't need to, they can take 5 seconds of their lives, stick a helmet on their heads and off they go to a better healthier life. If they don't have a bike or helmet a lot of shops do package deales. :D

That was easy, now I'm fit and healthy and wearing a helmet. 8) :wink:

Trouble is it's all about frame of mind and really has nothing to do with the helmet at all. :(

Martin


Yeah.. but you see that's the bit you're missing. You're used to riding with a helmet and as you say it hasn't stopped you. I'm the same, I'm doing 1000k a month - and everyone of them wearing an approved polystyrene hat (APH). Even if given the choice tomorrow probably 90+% of them would still be with a APH.

So that's great - but that's my point. Because you're used to it you don't see the problem. But my point is that there are lots of people out there who it just makes it that little bit too hard, or they don't want their hair to get messed up, or they don't like the sweaty head, or the looks or whatever - but it means they aren't cycling! Personally, I am 100% sure that a repealing of mhl would result in a very significant increase in cycling.

When MHL were introduced there was a massive reduction in cycling. I don't deny that there are other factors, but I still think we'd see a big increase. If we see a big increase in cycling - then that makes it safer for everyone which in turn makes cycling even more attractive.
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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