Show me THE light!

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Show me THE light!

Postby The Walrus » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:45 pm

Lights! Christ almighty this shouldn't be so hard!

Before anyone complains about another light thread let me say that I looked through most of them and still am no clearer about what to get!

I'd love the dynamo option but the set up cost seems steep, I'd love to be convinced otherwise but not hopeful! I love the convenience of always there, no batteries and who doesn't like to be green :mrgreen:

Cheap sets for $50-100 are exactly that, cheap sets...been there, done that and they are crap. I tried to reignite the old ones and its about as bright as your average member of 'Gen Y'

Rechargeable sets could be the go. Ay Up seems to be the trendy option but being trendy isn't my thing (it used to be :cry: ) and I want functionality.

I trawled through the '900 Lumen Ebay Lights' thread and at page two I was convinced, at page 5 less so, then I found this

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mountain-Bike-MTE-Cree-LED-900-Lumen-Rechargeable-Light-/380255550629?pt=AU_Sport_Cycling_Accessories&hash=item5888ff3ca5

...and now I'm clueless!
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by BNA » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:47 pm

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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby twizzle » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:47 pm

Ay-ups V4 (intermediates on the bars, narrow on the helmet). One of the few lights you can set up so they don't blind other road users by accident. I'm also not into 'trendy', but nothing else came close in terms of form factor and capability.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby R12RT » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:03 pm

Ay-Ups may be trendy. But they work extremely well.

I have just started using the lights and I am very inpressed. They are expensive though.

I started down the road looking for cheap lights but gave up.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:05 pm

For a lower cost, very good quality dynamo light set up

B&M 6 dynamo

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plus the new B&M Lumotec lyt with standlight.

Image


plus a B&M Toplight Flat Plus tail light with standlight.

Image


No wheel rebuild required and total cost (incl shipping) of 83.73 euro - about $A115. Another 20 euro will get you the B&M IQ Cyo which is a lot brighter ~200 lumens.
Last edited by il padrone on Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby whitey » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:08 pm

The Walrus wrote:Lights! Christ almighty this shouldn't be so hard!]
Rechargeable sets could be the go. Ay Up seems to be the trendy option but being trendy isn't my thing (it used to be :cry: ) and I want functionality.
!


They arent trendy, they are popular because they work well. Find me an unhappy Ay Up user......
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby TimW » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:12 pm

"Poor Man pays twice".


I'll be buying Ayups in 3 weeks time.

All the research i have been doing keeps leading me back to Ayups.
The three people i have spoken to in the last week about them, who use them have convinced me as well.

Being Trendy has nothing to do with it.

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Show me THE light!

Postby The Walrus » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:09 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I think trend has lots to do with it, but trends can be for good reasons.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not after a cheap option and I believe you get what you pay for but when it starts creeping into the area of $500 it's getting a bit rich for me...call me tight if you will. I guess $350 is a rough budget!

If I'm going the dynamo option it's hub or nothing. Ayups will cost minimum of $250 so what dynamo 'hub' options are there that compare?
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:17 pm

Some people say that unless you're doing > 10,000kms per year a Schmidt dynohub is overkill and the Shimano Nexus hub will do the job. It is certainly cheaper.

Probably $60-70 more than the sidewall dynamo, so with an IQ Cyo and the Toplight Flat, would probably come out at around $200. But this is buying on-line from Bike24, not locally. By the way, the IQ Cyo is certainly as bright as the single Ayup. It is a great lightset - really bright and ideal for the 'always-ready' situation. Suits me well, I can't be bothered faffing about with recharging - been there before.

[edit] Just did a price check for you. To be exact - $A194 delivered to you from Germany (bike24)

- Shimano Deore LX DH-T660-3N Sport-Hub Dynamo
- B&M IQ Cyo Senso Plus
- B&M Toplight Flat S Plus
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby The Walrus » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:28 pm

Thanks ilP

Sorry to appear confused, but just to clarify...are you saying $194 delivered for everything needed?

- Shimano Deore LX DH-T660-3N Sport-Hub Dynamo
- B&M IQ Cyo Senso Plus
- B&M Toplight Flat S Plus

So assuming that is correct, additional costs would be fitting?
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby Rhubarb » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:31 pm

As I posted in another thread ....

"After about 12 months, my magicshine 900 lumen bike light has died. For once its not the light or the battery but I think its the connector on the light side. For $77 AUD I'm replacing it with the new 1000 lumen version.

I wanted to get Ayups, I really did. For what I was looking at it would have been $250 which realistically means $60 per year over 5 years. I estimate this is what I will spend replacing magicshines every 12 to 18 months, so in my eyes, they are both the same price.

My issue with the Ayups is they just aren't bright enough without getting 2 sets, and I can't be bothered mucking around with the helmet ones as well on everyday commuting. The new Ayups can be configured 40% brighter, which I assume takes them up to about 550 lumens. Still not as bright as the 1000 lumen MS light. Even accounting for the Chinese lumen exchange rate, which probably means they are really only 700-800, they are still brighter on the road.

I will look at them again in 12 to 24 months when I forecast my MS will again succombe to the rigours of daily all weather use."
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby CommuRider » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:33 pm

....and they say women are indecisive.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby The Walrus » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:37 pm

CommuRider wrote:....and they say women are indecisive.


You should have been party to the bike buying process! :D
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby The Walrus » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:40 pm

Rhubarb wrote:As I posted in another thread ....

"After about 12 months, my magicshine 900 lumen bike light has died. For once its not the light or the battery but I think its the connector on the light side. For $77 AUD I'm replacing it with the new 1000 lumen version.

I wanted to get Ayups, I really did. For what I was looking at it would have been $250 which realistically means $60 per year over 5 years. I estimate this is what I will spend replacing magicshines every 12 to 18 months, so in my eyes, they are both the same price.

My issue with the Ayups is they just aren't bright enough without getting 2 sets, and I can't be bothered mucking around with the helmet ones as well on everyday commuting. The new Ayups can be configured 40% brighter, which I assume takes them up to about 550 lumens. Still not as bright as the 1000 lumen MS light. Even accounting for the Chinese lumen exchange rate, which probably means they are really only 700-800, they are still brighter on the road.

I will look at them again in 12 to 24 months when I forecast my MS will again succombe to the rigours of daily all weather use."


I did see your post Rhubarb ( I did read the entire thread) and at that price its hard to go past that option, even if it is on a 12 month replacement plan! Still an option but then again so is a 900 lumen torch with handlebar fitting!
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby CommuRider » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:47 pm

The Walrus wrote:
CommuRider wrote:....and they say women are indecisive.


You should have been party to the bike buying process! :D


Haven't you figured it out already? Get the best and brightest! I did look at dynamos but for the price they asked for I could get 10,000 lumens and be a genuine glow in the dark UFO.

Currently my 900 lumens does me well and at the time I purchased it, had the best output. But now it's been superceded by other super lumens. So buy the best for now but bike tech as it is, 6 months down the track you will suffer from lumen envy. :P

Do you want to stay in the dark for the next 6 months?
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:50 pm

The Walrus wrote:Thanks ilP

Sorry to appear confused, but just to clarify...are you saying $194 delivered for everything needed?

- Shimano Deore LX DH-T660-3N Sport-Hub Dynamo
- B&M IQ Cyo Senso Plus
- B&M Toplight Flat S Plus

So assuming that is correct, additional costs would be fitting?

The hub dynamo will need to be built into your wheel of course so that will add about $70-$80, then that should be the full cost. Fitting is something you should be able to do yourself. Wiresnips/peelers, some cable-ties and shrink-wrap tubing and you'll get all the wiring with the lights. Use the double-pole cable and cable-tie it to your frame. It's pretty easy.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby wombatK » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:03 pm

The Walrus wrote:I trawled through the '900 Lumen Ebay Lights' thread and at page two I was convinced, at page 5 less so, then I found this

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mountain-Bike-MTE-Cree-LED-900-Lumen-Rechargeable-Light-/380255550629?pt=AU_Sport_Cycling_Accessories&hash=item5888ff3ca5

...and now I'm clueless!

Yep, clueless is pretty spot on. So I'll help you with some clues. I have exactly that torch that you've linked (but got it from DX).

It has a P7 LED, which is made by Seoul Semi-conductor (SSC). So the advert that you are reading and the URL is making a FALSE claim when it describes it as a P7 Cree and/or Cree LED. It's pretty clueless to buy from someone who would make such a FALSE, if not deceptive claim. Why ? Read on...

The first MTE DX delivered had one of the 4 elements of the P7 DOA. It took over 3 months to get a replacement from DX. While the replacement is rated as 900 lumen, as indicated in the other thread, that's the best you'll ever get if you are really really lucky. The one I got was good for about 600 lumen - even with 4 elements working. As pointed out by someone else in another thread, LED's are "binned" when manufactured according to how close they get to the theoretical max output, and the ones being used in the torches look very much like the ones from the "reject" bin.

The Cree LED's in the Ayups are a single-element LED. The reason that SSC use a 4 element LED is they haven't got the
technological tricks that Cree use to make their single element LED's. Some manufacturers are copycats, not innovators, and poor ones at that.

My single Ayup set (intermediate beam) does a better job than the MTE P7 and the MagicShines, and lasts a lot longer on a battery charge, and fails gracefully. The MTE's P7 just dies totally, like the MagicShines.

Next big negative - that bracket shown in the advert is also available from DX. It fits only a 25 mm bar, but does not grip very well (IIRC has a cheap and nasty plastic thread). The MTE P7 has a very heavy head, and will tend to rotate around the bars and point at the ground. Also hard to mount it with rubber or wrist bands, because of the unbalanced heavy head.

As for the magicshines, yep, I've tried one of them too. I really wanted to give the P7 another chance, in case I was unlucky with the MTE. But the first magicshine arrived DOA too, and took nearly 4 months to get a replacement sorted. On the road, it's still no better than my Ayups and runs so damned hot I don't expect to see it last (case temperature around the torch unit was 65 deg after about 10 minutes running).

The reason these things are cheap is because there is very little quality control - they are cheap and nasty. You can be lucky - Rhubarb is very happy to buy a magicshine every year. But ask yourself can you afford the hassle of the bad luck I've had (50% failure rate) ?

Ayups are popular because they work. They are reliable and durable. You won't have to buy another set in a year or two's time, unless you want them for your wife's bike etc.,.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:29 pm

The Walrus wrote:I trawled through the '900 Lumen Ebay Lights' thread and at page two I was convinced, at page 5 less so, then I found this

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mountain-Bike-MTE-Cree-LED-900-Lumen-Rechargeable-Light-/380255550629?pt=AU_Sport_Cycling_Accessories&hash=item5888ff3ca5

...and now I'm clueless!

Whoahh!

$114 :shock:

Well, I know that LED technology has moved on, but I bought two of a similar type of torch from Deal Extreme about 3-4 years ago. They are Ultrafire C2 3W Cree LED torches. No doubt the lumens brightness is lower than this '900 lumens' job, but they are very bright - maybe 400 lumens. The thing is they were the best Cree LEDs about then and cost me ~ $24 each :?

Don't buy that light Walrus, it's not worth it.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:35 pm

If you don't want to go the dyno option it's gotta be AyUp. Not to be trendy, to be (reliably) seen.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby The Walrus » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:46 am

wombatK wrote:
The Walrus wrote:I trawled through the '900 Lumen Ebay Lights' thread and at page two I was convinced, at page 5 less so, then I found this

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mountain-Bike-MTE-Cree-LED-900-Lumen-Rechargeable-Light-/380255550629?pt=AU_Sport_Cycling_Accessories&hash=item5888ff3ca5

...and now I'm clueless!

Yep, clueless is pretty spot on. So I'll help you with some clues. I have exactly that torch that you've linked (but got it from DX).

It has a P7 LED, which is made by Seoul Semi-conductor (SSC). So the advert that you are reading and the URL is making a FALSE claim when it describes it as a P7 Cree and/or Cree LED. It's pretty clueless to buy from someone who would make such a FALSE, if not deceptive claim. Why ? Read on...

The first MTE DX delivered had one of the 4 elements of the P7 DOA. It took over 3 months to get a replacement from DX. While the replacement is rated as 900 lumen, as indicated in the other thread, that's the best you'll ever get if you are really really lucky. The one I got was good for about 600 lumen - even with 4 elements working. As pointed out by someone else in another thread, LED's are "binned" when manufactured according to how close they get to the theoretical max output, and the ones being used in the torches look very much like the ones from the "reject" bin.

The Cree LED's in the Ayups are a single-element LED. The reason that SSC use a 4 element LED is they haven't got the
technological tricks that Cree use to make their single element LED's. Some manufacturers are copycats, not innovators, and poor ones at that.

My single Ayup set (intermediate beam) does a better job than the MTE P7 and the MagicShines, and lasts a lot longer on a battery charge, and fails gracefully. The MTE's P7 just dies totally, like the MagicShines.

Next big negative - that bracket shown in the advert is also available from DX. It fits only a 25 mm bar, but does not grip very well (IIRC has a cheap and nasty plastic thread). The MTE P7 has a very heavy head, and will tend to rotate around the bars and point at the ground. Also hard to mount it with rubber or wrist bands, because of the unbalanced heavy head.

As for the magicshines, yep, I've tried one of them too. I really wanted to give the P7 another chance, in case I was unlucky with the MTE. But the first magicshine arrived DOA too, and took nearly 4 months to get a replacement sorted. On the road, it's still no better than my Ayups and runs so damned hot I don't expect to see it last (case temperature around the torch unit was 65 deg after about 10 minutes running).

The reason these things are cheap is because there is very little quality control - they are cheap and nasty. You can be lucky - Rhubarb is very happy to buy a magicshine every year. But ask yourself can you afford the hassle of the bad luck I've had (50% failure rate) ?

Ayups are popular because they work. They are reliable and durable. You won't have to buy another set in a year or two's time, unless you want them for your wife's bike etc.,.


Interesting comments Wombat. Are you saying that the above problems apply to 'all' of these 900 lumen lights? What I mean by that is the thread dedicated to that kind of light was mainly talking about avoiding paying $200 at the LBS for the same light. Is it fair to say that the reason you pay $200 rather than sub $100 online, for what essentially appears to be the same light, is for the reasons you have outlined, or are the $200 versions much the same?
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby wombatK » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:55 am

I can't tell you about the $200 version. Cellbikes have a $99 "clearance special" and another for $169 (both currently
out of stock). Your guess is as good as mine as to whether they are made better. They look the same, but
you could tell yourself they might be made in a different factory with better quality control if you really want to
take the risk.

Part of what you buy when you buy Ayups is the peace of mind that comes from a reputable brand. If you buy
el-cheapo chinese rip-offs, you aren't paying for that; and without the quality control and R & D put in to the reputable
brand, nobody can tell you whether they are "all like that".
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby goneriding » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:16 am

I just bought the 1,200 lumen rechargeable from Cell ($139). Does it actually output 1,200 lumens? No idea. Is it bright enough? Absolutely.

I can't comment on what happens as the charge gets low (i.e. graceful or dramatic death) and I can't comment on durability of the light through various weather conditions. I am still on the first charge from last Friday and am still going strong with the light running at half strength most of the time.

Cons
I don't like the strobe as it is way too bright.
There weren't any included instructions on charging etc (if I can work it out, anyone can). Minor.
The cycling from bright -> half -> strobe is unidirectional and the light has to go off to get back to bright. Minor.

Pros
The full beam is awesome for the odd unlit roads I commute/train on.
The handlebar mount is okay and stable (I've mounted the light under the handlebar).
The half beam is more than adequate for most urban roads.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby The Walrus » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:46 am

il padrone wrote:
The Walrus wrote:Thanks ilP

Sorry to appear confused, but just to clarify...are you saying $194 delivered for everything needed?

- Shimano Deore LX DH-T660-3N Sport-Hub Dynamo
- B&M IQ Cyo Senso Plus
- B&M Toplight Flat S Plus

So assuming that is correct, additional costs would be fitting?

The hub dynamo will need to be built into your wheel of course so that will add about $70-$80, then that should be the full cost. Fitting is something you should be able to do yourself. Wiresnips/peelers, some cable-ties and shrink-wrap tubing and you'll get all the wiring with the lights. Use the double-pole cable and cable-tie it to your frame. It's pretty easy.


Based on this kind of price I could get a dynamo system for under $300, which is around the starting price of the Ayups. Am I missing something because it makes me wonder why you would go with a rechargeable option over this set up?
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby Oxford » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:55 am

The Walrus wrote:Based on this kind of price I could get a dynamo system for under $300, which is around the starting price of the Ayups. Am I missing something because it makes me wonder why you would go with a rechargeable option over this set up?

some of us own more than one bike and occasionally ride/commute on different bikes.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby il padrone » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:17 am

The Walrus wrote:Based on this kind of price I could get a dynamo system for under $300, which is around the starting price of the Ayups. Am I missing something because it makes me wonder why you would go with a rechargeable option over this set up?

Some people prefer to be able to remove their lights - for security and/or to strip their bike back for daylight rides. Personally I prefer the security of a bolted-on system, and the ever-ready nature of the dynamo lights.


Some years ago, when I had payed a couple of hundred dollars for car maintenance (a regular thing), I thought about the comparison of car lights. Would I baulk at paying for a new car headlight? Certainly not, even if it cost $200. And are my bike lights important for my safety? Yes, very much. So since then I have equipped all three of my main riding bikes with dynamo lights, and also our tandem. It has cost some money but in the overall scope of things it's not that much. We use these bikes and ride them, day or night.
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Re: Show me THE light!

Postby Ross » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:57 am

The Walrus wrote:
Some years ago, when I had payed a couple of hundred dollars for car maintenance (a regular thing), I thought about the comparison of car lights. Would I baulk at paying for a new car headlight? Certainly not, even if it cost $200.


You obviously haven't priced car headlights lately, you can add an extra zero on the end of your price (at least) for a HID version from a Euro marque.

Do the dynamo lights have some sort of backup charging for when you stop at lights?
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