The Black Beast returns

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Postby Mulger bill » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:37 pm

europa wrote:Maybe I should convert her to a fixed gear and be done with it :shock:

Richard


With a backpack full o' books and an apple for the teacher? Naaah, don't wanna be reading a "My knee reconstruction" thread. :P

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by BNA » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:39 pm

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Postby heavymetal » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:39 pm

Might be easier. I've learnt a lot recently with trying to sort out the mess with my FD. The new one comes with several fittings for the clamp so that it will fit any sized down tube.

After hunting around through all sorts of parts lists, I ended up with the specific one that looks like it's going to fit and work except the lower water cage bolt hole is in the way.

There is no way I'm losing the water cage, so I have to fabricate something. However this FD cage doesn't twist or distort.

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Postby Kid_Carbine » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:43 am

That would be giving up.
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Postby Kalgrm » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:51 pm

What about a nine speed then? No front derailleur to worry about.
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Postby europa » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:02 pm

You lot are dodging the question - is that dr I showed the one I should be ordering? Please.

Fitting a carrier to the Europa is looking better all the time ... but then I'd have to tow the tag-along and the dog's trailer with a fixie.

**sob** I'm trying to escape the clutches of the Sow's Ear **howl**

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Postby Hotdog » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:25 pm

europa wrote:You lot are dodging the question - is that dr I showed the one I should be ordering? Please.

This has reminded me of a parody of a cycling forum technical question thread, but try as I might I just can't find the damn thing to post a link.

It's very good, but it won't help you with your derailleur issue either :roll:
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Postby Bnej » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:20 pm

I have a question: If you unhook the cable with your deraileur attached, and the shims in place, does it line up with the lowest gear?

Also: This is a cheap part - why not just as your LBS for something that will fit and work? - then if it doesn't, you're not stuck with it!

I was going to suggest an X.9 FD, but I don't know if they make them with a thin enough clamp diameter.
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Postby europa » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:32 pm

Bnej wrote:Also: This is a cheap part - why not just as your LBS for something that will fit and work? - then if it doesn't, you're not stuck with it!


I tried that, they didn't have the right dr ... as explained earlier.

The link I posted earlier is to a dr on Chainreaction which I can order to do the job. Maybe another one is the right one, if so, which one?

Jeez you lot. I'm asking for some advice. If it's the wrong bloody part say so, if it's the right one, I'd appreciated someone saying so.

It's not only the new blokes that need help sometimes.

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Postby Kalgrm » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:49 pm

I think you'll find that the conspicuous silence and the diversionary tactics are highlighting the fact that we don't know the answer to your question! :)
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Postby europa » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:52 pm

Kalgrm wrote:I think you'll find that the conspicuous silence and the diversionary tactics are highlighting the fact that we don't know the answer to your question! :)


Which is what I suspected ... however.

What the stuff is it with mtb gear? Seriously, it's easier to order a coffee in a yankee coffee shop than it is to buy basic mtb bits. Surely there's no genuine reason for that (marketing isn't a genuine reason).

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Postby Kalgrm » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:09 pm

europa wrote:What the stuff is it with mtb gear? Seriously, it's easier to order a coffee in a yankee coffee shop than it is to buy basic mtb bits. Surely there's no genuine reason for that (marketing isn't a genuine reason).

In a word: Shimano.

It seems like every year they come up with a new "standard" for the industry to fawn over. And why do they do it? You got it: marketing. They need to make things stronger, lighter and better (oh, and more more likely to sell ....) than the previous model.

For example, look at their BBs and cranksets. I think we are up to HollowTech III now, and none of them will work with the previous incarnations. The first HollowTech cranks came out only about 4 years ago ( ? ) and they wouldn't fit on the previous standard square taper BBs.

Back to your problem: my first thought was that the tube diameter of your seat tube would be somewhat thinner than a MTB seat tube. That alone would mean your clamp would be sitting a few mm too far left unless shims were applied equally all around the tube before clamping.

Current Shimano FDs often have both top pull and bottom pull on the same unit.

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Postby Kalgrm » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:10 pm

PS - will the FD from the Sow's Ear fit the Black Beast?
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Postby Mulger bill » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:44 pm

Hotdog wrote:
europa wrote:You lot are dodging the question - is that dr I showed the one I should be ordering? Please.

This has reminded me of a parody of a cycling forum technical question thread, but try as I might I just can't find the damn thing to post a link.

It's very good, but it won't help you with your derailleur issue either :roll:


Methinks it's the one I posted in the Humour thread, third post down...

Sorry Richard, without a good look I'm stumped. :oops:

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Postby europa » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:09 pm

Kalgrm wrote:PS - will the FD from the Sow's Ear fit the Black Beast?


I hope to dispose of that bike complete. Besides, the front dr on that is unbranded Shimano from quite a few years ago.

These new drs that they sell for multiple seat tube sizes - what's the story there? My mechanic isn't an idiot or a mony balony, yet he seemed to think, like I did, that shimming wasn't enough, you needed to buy the right unit.

I'm beginning to agree with him that the only sensible move is to trash the entire bike and buy an new one. Great thinking that.

How the hell do you upgrade parts if you can't work out what to buy in the first place? Do you upgrade by buying a new bike?

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Postby Bnej » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:10 pm

europa wrote:What the stuff is it with mtb gear? Seriously, it's easier to order a coffee in a yankee coffee shop than it is to buy basic mtb bits. Surely there's no genuine reason for that (marketing isn't a genuine reason).


It's actually easy to get MTB bits for a mountain bike. ;) A modern mountain bike anyway...

Just another idea: Are you using your touring bike road crankset, or an MTB crankset? I know MTBs tend to have wider pedal spacing, maybe there's a difference in how far the chainrings are offset from the BB too?
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Postby mikeg » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:05 am

What are:

Seat Tube Diameter?

Shifters model?

# teeth on large Chain Ring?

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Postby thomas_cho » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:43 am

Get a 2mm spacer and put that on the drive side at the BB. This will adjust your chainline out by 2mm.

Look at a Shimano road triple and a MTB triple, the spacing is not very different. If there is any difference we are talking abt mm ... not the amount that you are talking about, ie 1 click of the MTB shifting 2 chainrings.

That is more likely due to the cable tension, and the starting position of the crankset in relation to the FD.

Just to be clear so far ... are you still using a top pull FD in a bottom pull setup?

FWIW, I do have the FD you linked, and used it on my Mongoose tourer with the 48T MTB crankset. But I am using bar end shifters and friction shift the front. However, the FD will shift across the range of the crankset no problems. As I had shared with you previously, my initial problems were getting it to shift to the large chainring properly, the FD just didnt shift far enuf. My solution was to adjust the chainline, by removing a 2mm spacer from the drive side to the non-drive side. I am using a MTB external bearing crankset tho.

Also ... I always try not to cut the FD cable until after a week of road testing the installation. I curl it up, and tuck away the excess. I would suggest getting some spare cables and start again.
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Postby europa » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:59 am

Where would you get the 2mm spacer Thomas and what do you ask for? Talking bb spacers earned me some funny looks in the lbs.

I do all limit screw adjustments with a very very slack cable, just pulling the cable by hand to move the dr across.

The dr needs to be a bottom pull.
Tube diameter is 31.8mm
Large ring is a 48 tooth (which I've discovered is limiting - most mtb drs are 44 tooth)
The shifter is a Deore.

If I buy a new dr, I'll buy a DeoreLX, the current dr is Deore.

Interesting about your chainline issues Thomas. Mines the older style, cartridge bb, not an external bearing. There still shouldn't be these issues.

Seeing the dr is the wrong diam for the tube, I'll buy one to fit properly (although padding it works), then go from there. I'll order the I linked to. Be nice to imagine I won't have any problems with it.

Thanks lads.

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Postby mikeg » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:38 am

Try a FD-RD453 in 31.8mm clamp - is for 50 tooth big ring triple for flat bar

FD-R453-F


if you use a 9 speed flat-bar shifters you will get the trim feature on the LH shifter.

SL-R440-9

Shimano compatibility charts


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Postby thomas_cho » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:24 pm

europa wrote:Where would you get the 2mm spacer Thomas and what do you ask for? Talking bb spacers earned me some funny looks in the lbs.

I do all limit screw adjustments with a very very slack cable, just pulling the cable by hand to move the dr across.

The dr needs to be a bottom pull.
Tube diameter is 31.8mm
Large ring is a 48 tooth (which I've discovered is limiting - most mtb drs are 44 tooth)
The shifter is a Deore.

If I buy a new dr, I'll buy a DeoreLX, the current dr is Deore.

Interesting about your chainline issues Thomas. Mines the older style, cartridge bb, not an external bearing. There still shouldn't be these issues.

Seeing the dr is the wrong diam for the tube, I'll buy one to fit properly (although padding it works), then go from there. I'll order the I linked to. Be nice to imagine I won't have any problems with it.

Thanks lads.

Richard


Okay here is a link to a shimano pdf document. Check out part no.8 ... Also its not something new. When I purchased my colnago master x frame, it came with an octalink (italian thread) BB, and there was a spacer on the drive side.

I got a 48T Chainring, and have tried a LX FD (your link) as well as a 105 triple, and both have worked just as well. Just to make things even more complicated I was using a 10 spd chain, and even then the 9 spd FD functioned very well.

The "issue" i think is with the BB size you got. For roadies, there are just two sizes 109mm for double, 118mm for triple, for MTB there are 3 lengths, 113,118,121! Highly confusing ... I couldnt find much info on shimano websites either.

That was the main reason I went external bearings when deciding on the parts to get from chainreaction for my Mongoose randonneur. I just didnt know which BB length to get!

Sorry I cannot be more helpful than that. If you were here in Canberra, I would love to have a go and help you out with the spacer thing.
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Postby europa » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:45 pm

Righto. Thanks for all that.

The plan will be to buy the dr I linked to, plus a spacer or two (depending on cost and availability).

Of course, the cheap option is to put up with what I've got or to buy a new cable and have another play with the 105 dr.

Decisions. I'll try to ride the beast a few times this week to see how quickly I need to make some changes.

Thanks for the help lads.

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Postby Kid_Carbine » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:21 pm

europa wrote:Where would you get the 2mm spacer Thomas and what do you ask for? Talking bb spacers earned me some funny looks in the lbs.

Thanks lads.

Richard

Well it's time that your LBS got with the program & took a look at page 22 of the 2006/07 Velocity catalogue. Velocity call them "Freewheel Spacers"
Let me quote'

"These handy spacers can be used between bottom bracket shells & cups or between clusters & hubs making them great for correcting chainline problems.
Sold in bags of 10"

Velocity catalogue PDF file link

I first found them with Sturmey Archer hubs from about 1950 when they switched to splined sprockets. They were used to allow the hub's sprocket to be adjusted for chainline correction but were wonderfull for spacing freewheels on regular hubs too.

Edited to correct cockup in the text.
Last edited by Kid_Carbine on Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby europa » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:12 pm

Image

Had the first real run with her today - McLaren Vale to Willunga. 15km round trip towing the lass.

Gee that bike's smooth, she really rides well.

The front dr changed from middle to large okay, but on the middle restricts me to only the middle 7 cogs which is unacceptable on a bike being used this way - I guess I can ignore scraping dr cages for short periods, but it's still not what I'm used to.

The ghastly Bontrager Block of Wood of a saddle is history. I'm resisting the urge to pull the thing off now.

The bars and bar ends are very comfy. Although the bar ends don't change your position on the bike, you can rest the ball of your hand on the tail of the bar end and the palm of your hand on the extension which is far more comfortable than just gripping the bar.

The brand new Deore brake levers continue to be cheap rubbish. Maybe I should have bought higher level levers but it amazes me that simple brake levers can be crook. They did seem better at the end of the ride so maybe some use will wear off the burrs in the bearings and I'll forgive them.

The old shifters work a treat, though only being able to go down one gear at a time kept catching me out at road crossings - I'm used to being able to go down two or three gears at a time and don't start changing down early enough. Apart from that though, the shifts were crisp and clean on the back (LX dr there) and quite acceptable on the front.

The biggest disappointment, though not a surprise, was the bar height. 5km into the ride and I'm getting that tingling in the fingers of my right hand. They never got got to full numb but the break in the middle and the bar ends helped there. Sadly though, I got a pain in my shoulder, probably part of where the collarbone was dislocated 15 years ago to start this problem. I've never had that pain before though (yes yes, I'll be getting it looked at, already set that in motion). Interestingly, I didn't have a problem with the left hand which suggests that without the dicky shoulder, the set up is about right.

This does mean that the bar height will have to change. I did consider trying the adjustable neck (longer and with a higher possible angle) but think I'll just go straight back to the neck extender and be done with it.

The wider mtb bars worked well with the tag-along and that's a relief - the drop bars just weren't wide enough to control the 'rear wheel steering'. As it is we belted along at a grand old pace with full control. Sadly, both the lad and I left our computers at home so we don't know how fast we were going but it was a much faster trip than we'd normally do with the Sow's Ear and tag-along.

So, a mix of positive and negative. The old girl lives and will live well, but the soap opera continues. The 'cheap rebuild' has now cost so much I'll be buying new and putting good bits on her from here on in - besides I'm sick of farting about. Seeing I have to buy a saddle, I'll probably finalise my research and buy a new front dr at the same time, unless someone comes up with a suitably old looking Brooks.

Please look in your sheds. I know some of you have old Brooks saddles lying around and I would prefer the tatty look to the new look for when she's chained to a fence at Uni.

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Postby heavymetal » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:17 pm

europa wrote:The biggest disappointment, though not a surprise, was the bar height. 5km into the ride and I'm getting that tingling in the fingers of my right hand. They never got got to full numb but the break in the middle and the bar ends helped there. Sadly though, I got a pain in my shoulder, probably part of where the collarbone was dislocated 15 years ago to start this problem. I've never had that pain before though (yes yes, I'll be getting it looked at, already set that in motion). Interestingly, I didn't have a problem with the left hand which suggests that without the dicky shoulder, the set up is about right.


As you know I have a dicky right hand on MTBs. A trick I do is to undo the stem bolts slightly and put the steering slightly off centre. As long as you don't look at the handlebars and front wheel you will never notice. I put a handlebar bag on so I couldn't see the wheel :D

I found this helps the right hand problem, but I just don't get on with flat bars.

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Postby europa » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:23 pm

It may not help me Kev as I get the same problem only far less pronounced on the bent and when driving the car. It's certainly worth looking at as a fine tuning exercise when I get the bars closer to the right height though ... or do you find it makes a dramatic difference? It's a pity you can't loosen the neck and allow the bars to find their own place like you can a saddle.

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