Hub Dynamos in Australia

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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby ghettro » Mon May 30, 2011 2:16 pm

The other reason I think dynamos are pretty rare here is because they are difficult to install. In countries where they are commonplace they are almost always factory fitted. Battery lights prevail because you can just strap them on.
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by BNA » Tue May 31, 2011 8:29 am

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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby querulous1991 » Tue May 31, 2011 8:29 am

hay,

i just bort and built up a dynamo hub with the supernova e3 on my roadie. does the job vey nicely.
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby sayapria » Tue May 31, 2011 10:28 am

Thank you all for the informative replies, it saved me a lot of research. The question now is to spend the money and get something, I have to weigh this against using my normal lighting using rechargeable batteries. I am sure it is much cheaper to use when you think about the outlay for a HUB. The problem goes back to total life cost and it seems to me that really the high cost makes the whole idea not economical specially when you buy a bike with HUBS which you have to disregard and buy new HUB for the DYNAMO. The solution is for the Bike Factories to have them installed this way you are saving the cost of the old HUB you need to disregard and makes the proposal very economical, I am assuming based on the cost of normal hubs and Dynamo Hubs that the extra cost is about $20 to $30 more to fit a dynamo hub at the factory instead of a standard hub.

Any thought about this?
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby ghettro » Tue May 31, 2011 12:00 pm

I actually picked up an OEM Shimano dynamo hub for very cheap. The lower end nexus dynamo hubs sell for about $50AU retail, so I would assume wholesale they are probably half that, add some basic front and rear LED lights and it's not a whole lot more.

I don't think it's so much a cost thing, in fact I would be willing to bet that the a lot of people looking to buy a bike for transport would be easily willing to pay a hundred or two more if it meant lights were built in and you never needed to charge it. People are inherently lazy.
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby il padrone » Tue May 31, 2011 5:45 pm

sayapria wrote:The problem goes back to total life cost and it seems to me that really the high cost makes the whole idea not economical specially when you buy a bike with HUBS which you have to disregard and buy new HUB for the DYNAMO.

I think you could be over-analysing the lighting question and using too much tight-ar$e economics. Cyclists can sometimes be good at this in Australia because they think of a bike as a recreational extra, rather than essential transport.

What would you be likely to pay for just one motorcar headlight?
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby Aushiker » Tue May 31, 2011 7:11 pm

Baalzamon wrote:
eeksll wrote:the price of a dynamo setup is still quite pricey.

I commute everyday and I consider it a nice to have.


Ah but the luxury of NOT having to charge batteries, or worry about batteries going flat on a ride with failing light.


But your dyno can fail no? :) Still need a backup, but agree a dyno setup does appeal.

Pete what rim/wheel did you use?

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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby il padrone » Tue May 31, 2011 8:29 pm

Aushiker wrote:But your dyno can fail no? :) Still need a backup, but agree a dyno setup does appeal.

I guess that is a technical possibility, but the quality of the Schmidt SON28 is pretty reknowned. Car lights can fail too (actually a lot more likely IME with the Falcon BA) but people don't usually carry a backup. I am not running a back-up. Even with the old Sanyo Dynapower on the road bike for Audax rides I only carry a battery LED spare to satisfy the Audax lighting rule.

I have not had a dynamo fail over many years of use. I have blown the odd halogen bulb in the past, but don't use them now. My son had a B&M LED headlight fail (something came loose internally and is rattling about). All other LED lights I've used have been fault-free. So far.....

Aushiker wrote:Pete what rim/wheel did you use?

SON28 hub with a Rigida Andra 30 CSS rim and Sapim stainless steel spokes, Rohloff with the same rim and spokes for the rear. What you might describe as bombproof :wink:
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby Xplora » Tue May 31, 2011 9:27 pm

il padrone wrote:
sayapria wrote:The problem goes back to total life cost and it seems to me that really the high cost makes the whole idea not economical specially when you buy a bike with HUBS which you have to disregard and buy new HUB for the DYNAMO.

I think you could be over-analysing the lighting question and using too much tight-ar$e economics. Cyclists can sometimes be good at this in Australia because they think of a bike as a recreational extra, rather than essential transport.

What would you be likely to pay for just one motorcar headlight?

+1 You haven't lived until you've had to buy a new headlight for a modern car. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ The bike headlights are cheap, even when they are SuperE3promegalightfantastic models 8)
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby Aushiker » Tue May 31, 2011 10:06 pm

il padrone wrote:
Aushiker wrote:But your dyno can fail no? :) Still need a backup, but agree a dyno setup does appeal.

I guess that is a technical possibility, but the quality of the Schmidt SON28 is pretty reknowned.


Sorry I wasn't being serious .. just taking the mickey out of Baalzamon who had a failure :)

SON28 hub with a Rigida Andra 30 CSS rim and Sapim stainless steel spokes, Rohloff with the same rim and spokes for the rear. What you might describe as bombproof :wink:


Thanks. I was thinking of a setup for the commuter so the Regida is probably overkill. Also Bike24.net don't have them listed or I cannot find them. Maybe a 32 spoke Mavic Open Pro would do the trick? How does one work out the spokes? Is it easy to do the calculation based on the rim and hub details?

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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby il padrone » Tue May 31, 2011 11:26 pm

Aushiker wrote:Thanks. I was thinking of a setup for the commuter so the Regida is probably overkill. Also Bike24.net don't have them listed or I cannot find them. Maybe a 32 spoke Mavic Open Pro would do the trick? How does one work out the spokes? Is it easy to do the calculation based on the rim and hub details?

I guess the Rigida Andra is more suited as an expedition touring rim. The CSS (carbide supersonic) treatment is extremely durable, but does require Swisstop blue pads or Koolstop green. Normal brake pads would be shredded by the hard rim surface. Story is apparently they have virtually zero wear for ~20,000kms and the Swisstop pads last for about 20-24,000kms as well. Rigida do make a lighter rim (Grizzly) in the CSS version.

The Andras have some unique features for rim life

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The thinning of the rim wall at the internal channel is their rim wear gauge - you'll notice that once the rim cracks through at the thin point the integrity of the tyre mount is still maintained. Also they have internally thickened spoke holes (no ferrules) and they can be obtained with holes specially drilled for the Rohloff hub's wider hub flanges.

If you can't find them at bike24, St John Street Cycles sell them. Cost me $227 for the pair of Andras, delivered.

I'm sure Mavic Open Pro or Open Sport would be fine for commuting, but will have a shorter lifespan. I don't know about spoke lengths, I took the easy route and got my LBS to build the wheels.
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby Baalzamon » Tue May 31, 2011 11:38 pm

Aushiker wrote:
il padrone wrote:
Aushiker wrote:But your dyno can fail no? :) Still need a backup, but agree a dyno setup does appeal.

I guess that is a technical possibility, but the quality of the Schmidt SON28 is pretty reknowned.


Sorry I wasn't being serious .. just taking the mickey out of Baalzamon who had a failure :)

SON28 hub with a Rigida Andra 30 CSS rim and Sapim stainless steel spokes, Rohloff with the same rim and spokes for the rear. What you might describe as bombproof :wink:


Thanks. I was thinking of a setup for the commuter so the Regida is probably overkill. Also Bike24.net don't have them listed or I cannot find them. Maybe a 32 spoke Mavic Open Pro would do the trick? How does one work out the spokes? Is it easy to do the calculation based on the rim and hub details?

Andrew


My dynamo failure was down to incorrect lacing into the rim. I too have a rigida andra CSS rim with the Son28 dynamo. Used 256mm spokes on it.

To work out spoke lengths, it is easy to do based upon rim and hub details. Always good to use more than one spoke calculator and have them agreeing.
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby rifraf » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:44 pm

Baalzamon wrote:My dynamo failure was down to incorrect lacing into the rim. I too have a rigida andra CSS rim with the Son28 dynamo. Used 256mm spokes on it.

Hiya, could you please explain a little more about this?
My sondelux is (very slowly) on its way over from starbike.
I'm new to my locale and am unfamiliar with the standards of my LBS whom I will be relying on
to build up the wheel.
I have no knowledge of wheel building myself and just spotted your above comment.
Could you tell me what to instruct the shop with regards to correct lacing?
If it makes any difference my wheel is 20" 406 size running high pressure tyres.
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby Baalzamon » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:33 pm

Rim logos on the right hand side, power connector on the hub on right hand side.
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby rifraf » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:38 pm

Baalzamon wrote:Rim logos on the right hand side, power connector on the hub on right hand side.

Thanks heaps :)
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby Aushiker » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:44 pm

Hi

Assuming the tax return plays out as per normal, I think I will pull the trigger on a dyno setup for the Surly LHT. I am looking at building the dyno into my existing Alex rim for now anyway.

For lights I have pretty much decided on the Supernova E3 Tail Light (rack mount) which I assume will go straight on to the Tubus and a E3 Pro on the front. I am not sure which E3 Pro to go with but: the Terraflux or the Iris (symmetrical lens)? I don't think the E3 Triple is necessary for mainly commuting duties and the odd night tour ride. Thoughts?

My second question what is the best choice in dyno to power all this? Also will probably get an E-Werk or Super-i-Cable to make use of the dyno power on tour during the day. So suggestions on the dyno? One suggestion is the Shimano DH-3N80 as being a better option than the SON. BTW is the SONDelux the SON 28 mentioned here?

Thanks
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby rifraf » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:42 am

Aushiker wrote:Hi

Assuming the tax return plays out as per normal, I think I will pull the trigger on a dyno setup for the Surly LHT. I am looking at building the dyno into my existing Alex rim for now anyway.

Good idea if your rims still have plenty of life!

For lights I have pretty much decided on the Supernova E3 Tail Light (rack mount) which I assume will go straight on to the Tubus and a E3 Pro on the front. I am not sure which E3 Pro to go with but: the Terraflux or the Iris (symmetrical lens)? I don't think the E3 Triple is necessary for mainly commuting duties and the odd night tour ride. Thoughts?

I'd consider seeing all three in action before parting with your bucks so there wont be any buyers remorse afterwards. However all three are well thought of by lots of owners so I dont think you can go too wrong.

My second question what is the best choice in dyno to power all this? Also will probably get an E-Werk or Super-i-Cable to make use of the dyno power on tour during the day. So suggestions on the dyno? One suggestion is the Shimano DH-3N80 as being a better option than the SON. BTW is the SONDelux the SON 28 mentioned here?

Thanks
Andrew

I'm not sure there is a right or wrong answer to which dynamo hub.
Consider whether or not you want a front disk brake (maybe for your next bike build if not for this one).
The Shimano you mention is not disk compatible.
Shimano do other hubs that are (Lots of reports of happy customers for the Shimano dynamo hubs.).
If weight is a consideration then the Sondelux is the weenie as far as I'm aware.
I believe the Son28 has the most output but at a small increase in weight and perhaps an unnoticeable increment of drag over the Sondelux.
Its been around for a long time and has many happy owners.
The Son products have a five year waranty (this sold me).
Dont rush to get the E-Werk or similar until you've spoken to a few owners as its a lot of expense for something
that carrying/buying a few batteries might be the answer.
You need to be in the saddle for a lot of hours at a time to really take advantage of one is my reasoning for
not taking the plunge despite my recent attempts at retail therapy.
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby il padrone » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:57 pm

I really think you'll get a better light for less money with the B&M IQ Cyo. I have both the E3 and Cyo and despite the E3 claiming higher lumens, the Cyo looks brighter on the road, lighting up a very bright useful area. Same for the rear B&M. I like the Seculite, which fits to the rear mudguard hence always very visible even carrying an overhanging load. The only real advantage of the E3 is that it is more robust (but lights generally don't suffer to much bashing about) and the led is upgradeable (but it's a costly freight charge all the way to Germany). Also the E3 has a nicer wiring package, but the price difference is a lot to pay for easy wiring.

As for the hub dynamo, some people claim that unless your mileage is quite high the SON is less economical than the Shimano.I decided that despite this, I did not want to need to replace a worn out hub dynamo. The SON28 runs very nicely - so much that I run it day and night, because I can 8) . I have never noticed any drag increase from having the lights switched on versus off.
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby Baalzamon » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:04 pm

Hi Andrew

You are welcome to have a test ride on either of my 2 dynamo equipped bikes to see how the son28 handles. Or you can just borrow the wheel and see how it handles, I have both 700c and 26" wheels with a Son28 in them.
The Shimano hubs don't come with built in over-voltage protection like the Son's do. I think the Son would suit you more as you are a high mileage cyclist
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby Aushiker » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:05 am

il padrone wrote:I really think you'll get a better light for less money with the B&M IQ Cyo. I have both the E3 and Cyo and despite the E3 claiming higher lumens, the Cyo looks brighter on the road, lighting up a very bright useful area. Same for the rear B&M. I like the Seculite, which fits to the rear mudguard hence always very visible even carrying an overhanging load. The only real advantage of the E3 is that it is more robust (but lights generally don't suffer to much bashing about) and the led is upgradeable (but it's a costly freight charge all the way to Germany). Also the E3 has a nicer wiring package, but the price difference is a lot to pay for easy wiring.

As for the hub dynamo, some people claim that unless your mileage is quite high the SON is less economical than the Shimano.I decided that despite this, I did not want to need to replace a worn out hub dynamo. The SON28 runs very nicely - so much that I run it day and night, because I can 8) . I have never noticed any drag increase from having the lights switched on versus off.


Thanks for the advice. Are you running the Cyo with sensor? I assume you have the 60 lumens version as well?

SON 28 it is then :)

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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby Aushiker » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:06 am

Baalzamon wrote:Hi Andrew

You are welcome to have a test ride on either of my 2 dynamo equipped bikes to see how the son28 handles. Or you can just borrow the wheel and see how it handles, I have both 700c and 26" wheels with a Son28 in them.
The Shimano hubs don't come with built in over-voltage protection like the Son's do. I think the Son would suit you more as you are a high mileage cyclist


Thanks. Will try and do that some time soon.

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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby il padrone » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:47 am

Aushiker wrote: Are you running the Cyo with sensor?

I'm currently running the Supernova E3 on my tourer. I bought the set (front and rear) when I was getting the kit for the Thorn. One other advantage is that it does have a more penetratiing long-distance beam - better for night-time country roads :?: . Not 100% convinced it is the best but I'll stick with it. The Cyo is now on my wife's bike and yes, it is sensor operated. I will eventually fit another Cyo I have onto my roadster commuter.

Aushiker wrote:I assume you have the 60 lumens version as well?

Yes.
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby Aushiker » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:15 pm

Hi

On the subject of the dyno, I forgot that I had kept a discussion from the Surly list. One of the comments made was:

Unless you're intending to use the hub to drive electronic items along with a light, the Son 28 is pretty much obsolete these days, thanks to LED headlights. The Son 20 or 20R work equally well with an E2 Edelux or Cyo, have less drag, are lighter in weight, and of comparable strength.

Schmidt has done extensive testing on the 20R and is claiming that it is as least as durable and long lasting as the 28--a bunch of European expedition bike builders have switched to the 20R, based on their discussions with Schmidt. If builders are putting the 20R on bikes for world touring, it's probably more than adequate for everything else.

The 28 and 20, by the way, can be disassembled without removing the spokes from the wheel, whereas the 20R needs to be unbuilt. This would seem a disadvantage, but apparently the need for a hub rebuild on the 20R is expected to be so rare that the wheel is likely to be worn out well before the hub needs a rebuild.

Another difference--the 20R has a hub flange distance of 50mm, whereas the 28 has a hub flange distance of 60mm. Jan Heine feels that this may weaken the 20R under certain circumstances; Schmidt feels that even at 50mm, the hub strength significantly exceeds any stresses likely to occur under even extreme use. Schmidt is probably correct. Tandem rear hubs have been built with 50mm flange width that haven't failed.


Interesting comments on the SON 20.

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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby rifraf » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:28 pm

Aushiker wrote:Hi

BTW is the SONDelux the SON 28 mentioned here?

Thanks
Andrew

Hi Andrew,
just incase it wasnt made clear, the Sondelux is a re-badged Son20R designed originally for smaller
(20") wheels.
They could make it lighter and smaller as the 20" wheels rotated faster making for higher output.
When using 26" or 700 rims and halogen bulbs the output of the Sondelux was such that
the bulbs didn't run very bright at very slow speeds.
Now led lights are common and dont suffer this symptom the Sondelux is being used more and more
by other owners of other rim sizes as its lighter weight and lower drag is appreciated without the problems
apparent with the halogen usage.
Owners with the E-Werk say the delux works fine charging batteries and running a gps.
Hope I've made this coherent.
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby rifraf » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:34 pm

A little addition from Peter White Cycles:
"In January, 2010, Schmidt is changing the name of the SON20R to SONdelux. Skip this paragraph if you aren't interested in German bicycle lighting regulations. ;-) The reason for the name change is a bit complicated. German law regulating bicycle lighting is very strict. A dynamo powered headlight must reach a certain brightness at a certain minimum speed. If you use a hub designed for 20" wheels to make a wheel with a 700c rim, that wheel will be rotating at a slower RPM at a given speed than the same hub in a 20" wheel, so the hub's output will be lower. With a halogen bulb headlight, the light would not reach the minimum required brightness until you were going faster than the law requires. But with LED headlights such as the Schmidt Edelux, Busch & Müller CYO and others, this isn't a problem. You can use a hub designed for 20" wheels in a 700c wheel and the light will be very bright at low speeds. Previously, it was illegal for Schmidt to sell the SON20R in Germany for use in 700c wheels. But the law has been changed. So now, Schmidt can sell the SON20R for use with 700c rims, as long as the wheel is used to power certain LED headlights that produce high output with very little power. So there's no longer any need to call the hub a "SON20R", implying it's only suitable for 20" and smaller wheels.

There is no difference between hubs labeled SON20R and SONdelux. only the name has changed. During 2010, we will be shipping hubs with both names, until our stock of hubs labeled SON20R runs out. Since as of February 2010 Schmidt still has some inventory of hub shells labeled SON20R, it could be a while before we ship the last hub labeled SON20R."
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Re: Hub Dynamos in Australia

Postby just4tehhalibut » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:42 am

I have built up two wheels this year with SON hubs, used the leftover bits and B&M sidewall generator for a third bike. The fiddly parts of the business were getting the spokes and choosing the headlight. All up very cheap to do, but then I bought from overseas mainly. I went to Starbikes and Evans Cycles for the bulk. I used the Peter White website for info, they won't sell anything here. Could have tried Velo Orange.

First bike was with the B&M sidewall generator, I choose a headlight with standlight and reflector. There were so many choices! Busch & Müller Lumotec IQ Cyo R N plus with near field illumination (175QRNDi)http://www.starbike.com/php/product_info.php?lang=en&pid=11496 . I had to learn what the QRNDi meant in order to pick the model. This worked out to be okay, a 40 lux light okay for city commuting. Then I tried a SON hub, tossed the sidewall dynamo off the commuter and onto the Surly Big Dummy. Lots of work as ordinary brackets didn't fit, found something at Evans Cycles that worked, eventually. Then decided that the SON hub worked really well, wanted to upgrade the Big Dummy before I took it down south for a Bike Vic event, bought another hub but relooked at the headlights, chose the version without a reflector (Busch & Müller Lumotec IQ Cyo N plus without reflector - 175QNDi). The German lights are well designed, none of that light burning into the retinas of oncoming cyclists, it's all directed forward in a nice shaft and the 60 lux version without a reflector also puts out some decent sidelighting for those country roads that the Dummy was about to travel. Rewiring was no prob, I went to the B&M website and read the online manuals. Didn't need to learn to read German. For the commuter bike I now have the headlight with no taillight, just upgraded to a 3W bulb. For the Big Dummy and the third bike with the leftovers I have wired in B&M's Seculite Plus diode rear light on the rear mudguard so that the headlight controls the tail, both have standlights for if I stop. Simple. The biggest hassle really is getting all the bits together.

I note that St Kilda and Abbotsford Cycles both sell hub dynamos however I suspect that these come through the Australian dealer, Cheeky Monkey, at a good markup. I have seen some complete, off-the-shelf bikes sold in AU with hub generators and Cube is one that might be worth trying. CRC used to sell these but have just limited this brand (as with a lot of other stuff like Specialized, Mavic, Topeak, etc), the only Cube that they'll sell is old stock under 'Cube 2010' and of this there's only the Cube Central model, with Shimano hub. If your LBS can get these in check out the Cube Delhi and Kathmandu models. Dahon sell folders with Shimano dynamo hubs, the Speed TR, Ciao!P7, IOS, a few other models that can come with the front hub as an option, plus they can match these up with their Biologic bits like the Reecharge unit. I think that you can also get a Brompton folder with either Shimano or SON front hub, but why would you buy Brompton when every accessory has to be bought through the authorised dealer? I know of only one LBS in Perth that had a dynamo hub, they're also trying to flog a Vivente Randonneur with Shimano hub, another set up bike worth looking at. There is no LBS here that'll set up a hub dynamo or wiring, you either do it yourself (and it becomes easy) or buy complete (and that usually means the not so good Shimano hub). Have fun looking.

P.S the SON hub + B&M light on the cargo bike are superbe. Never going to get caught commuting with a flat headlight battery again, either.
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