What is the point of the motor assistance?

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:39 pm

Joeblake wrote:
Hangdog98 wrote:.

There is a very strong movement to stop cycleway construction and tear up existing ones because of under-use. Then what?


Do you have any substantive evidence for this claim? (And please, don't just supply a link and expect somebody else to do your research for you.)
Joe

You're kidding Joe, right? Way out west in WA you might not get the TV coverage that 95% of Australians get, but the whole subject of tearing up cyclepaths has been the stock and trade of talkback radio for 2 years. The fierce battle between the Sydney Lord Mayor and the anti-cycling lobby groups spilled over into the NSW State election. Barry O'Farrell (the Premier of NSW) supported the destruction of bike paths in his election campaign. The danger isn't the bogan on the electric Huffy or Betty on her 500W step-thru but being killed by a lunatic truck driver whipped into an anti-cycling frenzy by Ray Hadley on 2GB.

I thought everybody knew this but I was wrong. Though I'm not going to deliever substantive evidence for this claim nor do I run a cycling lobby appreciation course. You need to get out of your cave and do some reading of your own to catch up or just ignore me.

The point of motor assistance is get more bums on bikes. These bums may not be as fit as you, as fast as you, as wealthy as you, as dedicated as you. have suffered through as many metric centuries as you, eaten as many power-bars as you, bought as many pro jerseys as you, watched as many live telecasts of the tour on SBS while spinning on their fluid trainer as you, participated in the cycling forums as much as you or know what the B tension adjuster does on a derailleur... but these arbitrary restrictions people want to put on others enjoyment of the pathways of travel around our great nation is just being a fitness elitist hiding behind the veil of non-existant safety concerns.

ColinOldnCranky, my advice to you would be to unsubscribe from this thread rather than close it. I'm not done thanks.
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by BNA » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:03 pm

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Rhubarb » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:03 pm

Electric bikes are ok. I object to the petrol powered ones I see on bike paths though. Petrol motor = on the road only !!!
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby cachexian » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:24 pm

+1 for the battle against Sydney's cycleways.

I don't have any evidence to back it up either but it is common knowledge in Sydney.

200w is enough to be a great assistance for me but I weigh 65kg and I pedal pretty hard.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:56 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:You're kidding Joe, right?


No, if I was kidding, I'd put a kidding smiley face.

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The danger isn't the bogan on the electric Huffy or Betty on her 500W step-thru but being killed by a lunatic truck driver whipped into an anti-cycling frenzy by Ray Hadley on 2GB.

I thought everybody knew this but I was wrong. Though I'm not going to deliever substantive evidence for this claim nor do I run a cycling lobby appreciation course. You need to get out of your cave and do some reading of your own to catch up or just ignore me.


It may come as a shock to you but (a) there are other places in the world except Sydney and (b) there are people who don't listen to talk back radio and can make their own minds up.

You need to get out of your cave and do some reading of your own to catch up or just ignore me.


Why?

Given that this seems to be in your turf, and it seems to be upsetting you, why don't you do something constructive about it?

What you're ranting about seems to have nothing to do with motor assistance. It seems to be about New South Wales politics. There's a New South Wales thread. Why not take your own advice which you gave to Colin and unsubscribe from this thread and continue this discussion over there?



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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:05 am

I agree Joe, I've heard there are literally dozens of cyclists who live outside Sydney and Melbourne.
Do you have anything to offer the actual discussion?
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:51 am

Hangdog98 wrote:ColinOldnCranky, my advice to you would be to unsubscribe from this thread rather than close it. I'm not done thanks.

The point that I am making is that as no-one is making any new points, in favour or otherwise.

And as the same goes for your post, I would say that, as far content is concerned, you are done. You just haven't yet realised that saying the same thing again and and again will not change anyone or anything.

As I am not yet as cycle-capable as I could be, then I will keep coming back for no other reason than that I am bored and occasionally someone comes up with something witty.

Besides, I now sense an Alan Jones bashing exercise coming and I would not want to miss out on that! :mrgreen:

Appended later: Actually, there has been something added at last, and it is your fresh tangent Hangdog - the issue of tearing up cycle paths in Sydney. So p'haps you are indeed not yet done. And if others posters do take up arguing on that then we could very well move to bashing Alan Jones - quite a worthwhile pastime imho.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:03 am

Hangdog98 wrote:Do you have anything to offer the actual discussion?


Res ipsa loquitur

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:52 pm

Ah yes, Alan Jones bashing, if only it weren't necessary. I like to include Ray Hadley (his co-conspirator) in the axis of evil as he winds up the blue T-Shirt wearing crowd into a frenzy of violence against people on bicycles.

Here's my segway. By limiting the use of cycleways to people who are know they are capable of riding 10+ km to work and back under their own steam we limit the number of people using the cycleways. The Alan Jones' assertions that the cycleways are a waste of money because they are under-used has gained support because, well let's face it, more people should be using them. Why don't they use them? Because they don't believe they can schlep into town and back on a bicycle. The best way, I reckon, to get these folks onto the cycleways is to allow them to ride electric assist bikes that will take them home if their legs (or their arse) get tired. It's all about perception. I know I can ride 100km in a session but people I know will say that's insane and "wouldn't do that without a motor".

The point of motor assistance is that it's a great way to get more people using cycleways and to ensure their continued development. The limiting factor is aways going to be battery capacity anyway as those things really only get you about 20km before they fizzle out and our newbie cyclist then learns to do a bit of pedalling, and the seed is sewn!

I see a time when Alan Jones will have to give up his anti cycling tirades and seek gratification once again in the airport toilets.
Hey how about we get Clover to name the King St cycleway "Struggle Street". :P

On the subject of closing threads, in my view, one should only close a thread when the forum has stopped registering new members. To the person who Googles electric bikes and stumbles up upon this discussion today, the discussion is new and exciting and they bring new and relevant content. If the content is old to you, it doesn't matter because it will give some bored member a chance to google some Latin and post it as a valid argument. I only close forums on my site when Godwin's Law of Nazi analogies has been breached or the discussion turns nasty.

Joe... To you I say Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet! Which means "I speak for the things themselves" or "available in three colours", or "Pick vestri pugna sapienter", depending on how much I've had to drink.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:Joe... To you I say Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet! Which means "I speak for the things themselves" or "available in three colours", or "Pick vestri pugna sapienter", depending on how much I've had to drink.



Feel better now? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:22 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:Here's my segway. By limiting the use of cycleways to people who are know they are capable of riding 10+ km to work and back under their own steam we limit the number of people using the cycleways.


So how does riding a Segway on a cycleway encourage people to exercise by pedaling? :?

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What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Comedian » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:18 pm

On reflection i'm kind of ok with big Betty having 500w as long as the assistance only works in proportion to pedal effort (Betty has to expend say... 100w to get the 500w) and the assistance cuts out completely at 25kph.

How does that sound? :)

Just yesterday I saw this bike flying towards me at a huge rate of knots. As the bike got closer I saw that it was piloted by a tiny young female who wasn't pedaling. I reckon if you want more than 200 it has to be strictly governerned.
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:21 pm

Yes that sounds fair, but in the words of the great warrior poet, Jeremy Clarkson... there's a problem. You see the Police don't have the skills, time or equipment to measure an eBike's output. One of the great secrets in the eBike world is that they're not really 200W or 300W or Wattever. As a previous member alluded to, the actual Wattage of the motor where the rubber meets the road is determined by the controller and the battery pack. 200W would be the rated power of the motor but in electric motor terms that means it's usually good for 800W with the odd burst at low loads to 1000W. Watts equals Volts multiplied by Amps. Most ebikes have a 36 volt battery pack and a chinese controller that is good for 30 Amps. (36V x 30A = 1080W :shock: ). Luckily they're so poorly put together that they operate well below their proper efficiency and the actual rear wheel output is usually below 200W. However, the good operators, particularly those using the bike's gearing to maintain high efficiency can create excellent mile munchers with a 200W rated motor the size of a coffee cup capable of 45kph all day long.

So, is there any point in creating a maximum motor size when actual power to the ground won't be measured or enforced?

I say YES to electric and NO to petrol assist and YES to a maximum speed of 45kph which is what I can do without a motor but at least this way, when Betty and I go for a ride, she can keep up with me and remain engaged in the process. Later we'll go for coffee and discuss Nietzsche... or not...whatever.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:47 pm

Hey guys, I was not serious on closing the thread. It was just my convoluted way of complaining that all we are doing is going over the same old stuff with the same old arguments and that it was time for something new to be put into the argument. We had got to the stage where someone new to the thread would state something already said many times and then those of us who have been here already would respond with the same tired arguments we had used before.

On increasing users on cycleways and cycle lanes to protect them from being gutted, it seems to me that while this has been a common complaint by motorists and shock jocks and others, those same places have got the numbers a short time later -they just seem to take a month or so to get the traffic. Or in other cases the paths were small disjointed segments of a bigger plan which will only pick up as the bits get joined up.(Sound familiar to Sydneysiders waiting for the full 200km?)

The first situation will not get up on the basis of e-bikes anyway as the uptake of ebikes is not proving to be fast. So we live with a short period of complaints and then they get full.

On the second disjointed, disjointed and similar, ebike riders would presumably ignore them for the same reason as do cyclists.

And at th is time what do ebikers add to the numbers. After quite a few years of being around (at the same price as they are now) 1%, 2%, less even? I support ebikes, indeed even looked at buying some for our vehicle fleet under out travelsmart initiative. And if I could get my wife to seriously use one I'd get one. But not as a cheap and unregulated pedal assisted scooter, that's my take and that is the reason that many are not happy to see them with enough power such that we get a whole lot of taypet21 type riders around. (Look up my earlier links to see this jerk.)

And as someone else has imtimated, this arguement about taking road space for bike lanes is, so far, largely an Alan Jones induced Sydney thing of recent vintage. (So far, hopefully it stays that way. And with his dismal public meeting that no-one turned up to even Alan will forget it and move on to something else.)
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Comedian » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:57 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:Yes that sounds fair, but in the words of the great warrior poet, Jeremy Clarkson... there's a problem. You see the Police don't have the skills, time or equipment to measure an eBike's output. One of the great secrets in the eBike world is that they're not really 200W or 300W or Wattever.


There are examples of that throughout society. They place the impetus on the citizen. Sure, you might ride for 10 years without being caught. Even if you do you might get a slap on the wrist. However if (heaven forbid) you hit a child and they are injured then you could well be in BIG trouble.

Drink driving is the same. The reality is given the amount of drivers it is very lightly policed. Yet, the impetus is on you to not drive drunk. If you do and crash then you're in all sorts of bother.

The same thing can apply to electric bikes. If you have 1000w and have circumvented the speed limiter.. and you hit that kid you could loose everything you own in a civil matter and be thrown into gaol by the police on manslaughter charges.

You decide what you want to do. :D
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:17 pm

Hangdog98 wrote: Most ebikes have a 36 volt battery pack and a chinese controller that is good for 30 Amps. (36V x 30A = 1080W :shock: ). Luckily they're so poorly put together that they operate well below their proper efficiency and the actual rear wheel output is usually below 200W. However, the good operators, particularly those using the bike's gearing to maintain high efficiency can create excellent mile munchers with a 200W rated motor the size of a coffee cup capable of 45kph all day long.


You seem to have little practical experience with electric motors. The controller should have a greater wattage capacity than the motor it controls, otherwise the controller will burn out if too much power is drawn (in the same way the power supply for a computer should have more capacity than the greatest load expected). If your example of 1080 watts of power is drawn by a motor rated at 200/400 watts, then almost guarantee the motor will burn out. The un-cheap motors have thermistor protection to stop this happening, so there's no point trying to jigger the controller.

And your 45 km/h on 200 watts is a bit of a myth, particularly on a naked upright bike, as you seem to be neglecting drag. It may be possible to gear the motor to turn quickly enough, but the slightest headwind or incline will have the bike dropping back to about 20 or so km/h unless the rider pedals pretty hard. My (un-faired) recumbent trike with a 26" drive wheel and a 200/400 watt motor will reach 24 km/h without my needing to give pedal assistance. And as any recumbent rider will tell you, the smaller frontal area of a 'bent makes them far more efficient in this area, so the same amount of power will push it faster than an upright machine, if the gearing permits, or go further on the same amount of charge.

It sounds like you need an electric motorcycle, not an electric assist bicycle.*

Joe

*Yes Colin, I know, same old points again. :wink:
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby cachexian » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:16 pm

I think he was talking about a chain drive motor (cyclone) rather than hub. Certainly capable of greater speed than hub.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:42 am

Joe, It's tedious to keep explaining incorrect assumptions, but I didn't suggest the geared assist (yes cachexian you are spot on. I was talking about cyclone and eLation) on a upright as being the 45kph bike but rather the cruising speed possible with the faster of the many options we may use, including 'bent bikes and those normal bikes with an aero position, and yes with muscular assistance. Of course a townie ridden by a naked woman with a large hat is going to have greater drag than a handsome man on a recumbent with or without his pocket protector provided he doesn't have an erection from looking at the woman on the Townie
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Also, I did make an effort to mention the mis-match of components available from Chinese eBay sellers and the loss in performance of said components. I think it's also true that rated power on a DC motor is about 25% of the maximum the motor can be pushed to, though as I took pains to mention the increased performance was an "odd burst at low loads to 1000W" I thought it was unnecessary to state that the consequence of sustained running at this power would burn out the motor. That's why I used the word "burst". I think you'll also find that the rated power of the standard 500W and 1000W motors on offer differ only by the sticker that conveniently matches the maximum output of the country they're meant to be sold in. Again, the power output is regulated by the controller, not the motor, which may burn out if you overcook it. The point I laboured to make was that the Police and most of the owners wouldn't be able to tell the real rated or maximum power of their eBike motor nor know the capacity of the controller other than that which appears on the instructions. Which will, of course, say "female horse stuffed with wax iBike of Wattes 200 power for windy enjoyment".

comedian, I think that the accused would be, at worst, charged with something more along the lines of 'Negligent act causing death' though the only type of negligence the Crown could prove would be that the 1000W Huffy rider knowingly installed a battery/controller combination that allowed him to go as fast as a fit cyclist. Had he fitted a jet pack from a surface to air missile then we may have something. Now I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that contributory negligence wouldn't be applied in a civil suit against our 1000 Watt rider either because Res ipsa loquitur isn't a doctrine and has lost much of its power in contributory negligence cases in Australia unless they were taking action against the eBike kit manufacturer (or surface to air missile supplier). I'd suggest that no-one would even test the bike other than looking at the sticker on the motor saying 200W and leave it at that. These sorts of legal ambiguities are why it's better to come up with a maximum speed consistent with other users of the cycle paths rather than legislate an unenforceable arbitrary Watt limit. We have the technology, laws and tools to measure speed and I think we should go that way.

Joe, what do you reckon, you're a lawyer aren't you?
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:59 am

Hangdog98 wrote:Joe, what do you reckon, you're a lawyer aren't you?


I'm not here to offer you free legal advice.

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby cachexian » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:43 am

Ha... unless of course he had a tail wind and had attached a sail to said erection :D

With my Bafang (EVS kit) the limiting factor to maximum power supplied to the motor is the nylon planetary gears in the hub. Others (posted on Endless Sphere) have overvolted and over amped it and melted these gears at around 1000W.

In my entire kit (with 36v LiPo battery and 15A controller) the limiting factor to total power is indeed the controller. It puts out a max of 15A (at stall and full throttle). The capacitors in the controller (whilst they do have a margin of error) are not rated to take much more than the peak voltage of my battery (which is 42v).
But with my kit, I'd suspect that the current losses due to resistance in all the thin wires and crimped connections would mean that, as you say, the actual current and voltage at the motor is less than my cycle analyst says is coming out of the battery.

I reckon that in all likelihood the laws will be enforced at point of sale rather than on the road. Cops can check your speed at a speed trap, they can ensure that your ebike "looks" like an ebike and that you are pedalling but I doubt that they will be carrying around a multimeter. I recently read of a gentleman in Australia on ES who was fined for having an illegal Ebike. The police picked him out because he was not pedalling.

I would imagine that if the police had a suspicion of a more powerful ebike than allowed they probably just fine you. They would know that the rider would know the output of their bike and that if the rider wishes to challenge the fine they would then have the onus to prove that it is a legal ebike. Ultimately they probably have the power to confiscate it. Then they would be able to test it to discover its true power. Let's hope that it doesn't come to this. The aforementioned Australian just sucked it up and paid the fine - he knew he was doing the wrong thing.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:27 am

Joeblake wrote:
Hangdog98 wrote:Joe, what do you reckon, you're a lawyer aren't you?


I'm not here to offer you free legal advice.
Joe


But Joe, your other advice is normally so free, plentiful and unsolicited :(
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:08 am

cachexian wrote:The police picked him out because he was not pedalling. if the rider wishes to challenge the fine they would then have the onus to prove that it is a legal ebike. Then they would be able to test it to discover its true power. Let's hope that it doesn't come to this. The aforementioned Australian just sucked it up and paid the fine - he knew he was doing the wrong thing.

I was recently told, by what I beleive to be a reliable source, that the requirement for Pedalelec sensors hasn't actually been legislated yet. This wouldn't stop some Police from writing a ticket for it nor stop someone from paying it, nor stop State revenue from accepting it, but I didn't think it was "illegal" yet. :shock:
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:12 am

Hangdog98 wrote:[I think you'll also find that the rated power of the standard 500W and 1000W motors on offer differ only by the sticker that conveniently matches the maximum output of the country they're meant to be sold in.


I think you'll find there's a lot more involved than you realise, but if you wish to believe that, I won't try to disillusion you.

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:15 am

Hangdog98 wrote:
Joeblake wrote:
Hangdog98 wrote:Joe, what do you reckon, you're a lawyer aren't you?


I'm not here to offer you free legal advice.
Joe


But Joe, your other advice is normally so free, plentiful and unsolicited :(


Which you are free to ignore.

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:07 pm

Joeblake wrote:
Which you are free to ignore.

Joe

Are you breaking up with me?
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby cachexian » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:27 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:
cachexian wrote:The police picked him out because he was not pedalling. if the rider wishes to challenge the fine they would then have the onus to prove that it is a legal ebike. Then they would be able to test it to discover its true power. Let's hope that it doesn't come to this. The aforementioned Australian just sucked it up and paid the fine - he knew he was doing the wrong thing.

I was recently told, by what I beleive to be a reliable source, that the requirement for Pedalelec sensors hasn't actually been legislated yet. This wouldn't stop some Police from writing a ticket for it nor stop someone from paying it, nor stop State revenue from accepting it, but I didn't think it was "illegal" yet. :shock:


No. I don't think so but I think that it just gave them reasonable grounds for suspicion.
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