Help with training - fitness and endurance

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Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Bec26 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:03 pm

Hi everyone

I'm after some advice.

I've recently dipped my toe in and got myself a cheapy starter bike (Hybrid 8 speed Mongoose) - bought well before the TDF hahaha :D

Have been going on a few weekend rides with my daughter approx 15-18km long to ease back in.

Now wanting to get a bit more serious about it. So, some vitals 48yo male 87kgs 175cms tall. Want to ride for fitness and weight loss with a goal of getting into the Sydney Spring Ride in Oct.

So suggestions/advice warmly welcomed

Cheers
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by BNA » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:40 pm

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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Daccordi Rider » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:40 pm

Hi, good to see you dip the toe. Best way to start is what is called base
miles. A distance you can handle done with a good cadence. Builds up your "tank" and also burns calories. Don't worry about strength and pushing big gears until you can ride say 90 mins with a cadence over 90. Then look for hills or doing repeats of stronger shorter efforts. Hope this helps and good luck.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:29 pm

Bec26 wrote:So suggestions/advice warmly welcomed

1. Ride as frequently as possible, at least 4 times per week. 5 or 6 per week is better. Even if it means 30-45 minutes on a home trainer to get an extra session. Frequency is really important to improving fitness.

2. Add 15-minutes per week to your total riding time until you have no more ride time available.

3. Then begin to make one day/week harder by choosing hillier routes.

4. Get your diet sorted. Just cut out one or two of the things you don't need, don't attempt wholesale changes unless it's really bad. Cycling is much much more enjoyable at 77kg than 87kg.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Bec26 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:13 pm

Thanks for the replies!!! :D

Daccordi Rider wrote: A distance you can handle done with a good cadence. Builds up your "tank" and also burns calories. Don't worry about strength and pushing big gears until you can ride say 90 mins with a cadence over 90. Then look for hills or doing repeats of stronger shorter efforts. Hope this helps and good luck.


@Daccordi Rider, how do I measure my cadence? Count it out in my head or somehow estimate?

:?:

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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:35 pm

Bec26 wrote:@Daccordi Rider, how do I measure my cadence? Count it out in my head or somehow estimate?

Don't concern yourself with it.

Just ride with reasonable effort and select a gear that feels good for you. The cadence isn't overly relevant*. It's effort and regular/frequent riding that matters far more.

* it will matter more on climbs if you don't have a gear small enough to ride at a comfortable rate - but that's a gearing issue.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Daccordi Rider » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:14 pm

I find a cycle computer with cadence very helpful but also agree with Alex, it is not the be all. Consistancy is #1 but feel like you are on top of the gear, not struggling to turn over if you know what I mean.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Bec26 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:31 am

Daccordi Rider wrote: Consistancy is #1 but feel like you are on top of the gear, not struggling to turn over if you know what I mean.


Thanks for this! I have been trying to push to hard in higher gears and wearing out fast :shock:

Yesterday, stayed in mid range gear, just kept a nice rhythm going and was at 16kph on a crit track for 8 laps. That's a much better result than last time, crashed and burned after four by trying too hard :oops:

It's getting easier, thanks to both of you! :P
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Daccordi Rider » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:31 pm

Great to hear. You can sneak down the cassette as your endurance builds up. Spinning sure beats grinding!
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby you cannot be sirrus » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:02 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Bec26 wrote:@Daccordi Rider, how do I measure my cadence? Count it out in my head or somehow estimate?

Don't concern yourself with it.

Just ride with reasonable effort and select a gear that feels good for you. The cadence isn't overly relevant*. It's effort and regular/frequent riding that matters far more.

* it will matter more on climbs if you don't have a gear small enough to ride at a comfortable rate - but that's a gearing issue.


I followed this advice a couple of months ago, (I was getting too wrapped up in cadence) and my riding has improved by a huge amount. I find that pushing a higher gear at a lower cadence works better for me than spinning but each to their own I guess.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby AndyTheMan » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:13 pm

[/quote].... Cycling is much much more enjoyable at 77kg than 87kg.[/quote]

But I'm 92kg... :(
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Dr Hackenbush » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:41 pm

Hi I thought I might continue this thread as my question is the same.

I had a serious car accident in 1993 where I was hit by a drunk driver. Believe it or not but the operations have finally stopped (for now)
I was a hulking 6"2 95kg fit person who was actively ski racing at 100mph+ when I had the accident so I was fit with very strong legs.
Up until recently I was able to join my thumb and first finger in a circle around my thighs, it's a little better now but I haven't taken a measurement. The point is that I'm probably as unfit as it is possible to get without being morbidly obese. I had been riding an exercise bike with the physios at hospital but that is oh so boring.

So I purchased a bike. :mrgreen:
The only issue I have with a road bike is falling off. If I do I'm likely to end up in hospital again, but you have to live right. :wink:
All that means to me is that I must be sensible, stay out of traffic, no offroad riding etc.

What I really want to know is where do I start? I live in the hills outside Perth (Chittering Valley) and I have 2 hills outside my driveway and one of them is enormous that my V8 car struggles with. There is no way I can ride the big one (heck I can't even walk up it) the smaller one I can tackle but it really hurts. Should I put the bike in the car and go and find some flat road? I've had 2 rides on the road so far (too much rain) with the longest I've managed being 5km before the legs burnt out due to the hills.
Another problem I'm finding is that my right leg is the damaged one and it seems my left leg is doing most of the work as it's the leg that wears out first. However I'm left footed so that may play a role being the dominant leg. :?:
I've managed to get onto the bike everday so far, if it rains I just use the magnetic trainer thingy.
I have no ambition to race, I only want to get fit and strong again. I ride on my own as I don't know of any other cyclists in my town.

PS I'm 43 for four more weeks and I'm currently 61kg about 20kg under my ideal weight.
My bike is an Avanti Cadent, I chose carbon to maximise the comfort as I'm on painkillers for the rest of my life.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby maDKient » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:14 pm

Dr Hackenbush wrote:Hi I thought I might continue this thread as my question is the same.

I had a serious car accident in 1993 where I was hit by a drunk driver. Believe it or not but the operations have finally stopped (for now)
I was a hulking 6"2 95kg fit person who was actively ski racing at 100mph+ when I had the accident so I was fit with very strong legs.
Up until recently I was able to join my thumb and first finger in a circle around my thighs, it's a little better now but I haven't taken a measurement. The point is that I'm probably as unfit as it is possible to get without being morbidly obese. I had been riding an exercise bike with the physios at hospital but that is oh so boring.

So I purchased a bike. :mrgreen:
The only issue I have with a road bike is falling off. If I do I'm likely to end up in hospital again, but you have to live right. :wink:
All that means to me is that I must be sensible, stay out of traffic, no offroad riding etc.

What I really want to know is where do I start? I live in the hills outside Perth (Chittering Valley) and I have 2 hills outside my driveway and one of them is enormous that my V8 car struggles with. There is no way I can ride the big one (heck I can't even walk up it) the smaller one I can tackle but it really hurts. Should I put the bike in the car and go and find some flat road? I've had 2 rides on the road so far (too much rain) with the longest I've managed being 5km before the legs burnt out due to the hills.
Another problem I'm finding is that my right leg is the damaged one and it seems my left leg is doing most of the work as it's the leg that wears out first. However I'm left footed so that may play a role being the dominant leg. :?:
I've managed to get onto the bike everday so far, if it rains I just use the magnetic trainer thingy.
I have no ambition to race, I only want to get fit and strong again. I ride on my own as I don't know of any other cyclists in my town.

PS I'm 43 for four more weeks and I'm currently 61kg about 20kg under my ideal weight.
My bike is an Avanti Cadent, I chose carbon to maximise the comfort as I'm on painkillers for the rest of my life.


Fooking drunk drivers!

First off, kudos for trying to get fit again and doing something positive for your health. I would have thought that the inactivity after the accident would have made you gain weight rather than lose it. I know which direction my weight would be going without exercise.

I'm no medico whizz but I guess what I would say is to take it easy at first. Don't worry about the hills for now and focus more on being able to ride for either a set time or distance that is manageable and build from there. Throw in some moderate climbs in there if you'd wish or if you're legs are up for it. Any riding outdoors will surely beat the stationary bike lol.

As for the leg imbalance, perhaps gym sessions with focus on building your right legs through resistance training? Maybe some physios or PTs can shed some light on how to correct it.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Dr Hackenbush » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:54 pm

Hi maDKient, thanks for your reply.

I'm at a point where I have worn out the physios and doctors, they get you up out of bed and walking again then you're pretty much on your own.
I have got the most out of resistance training/swimming, it's time for me to start doing the hard yards. I think the imbalance is more of a technique thing (strongest leg?) or it might also be shortening of the leg. The surgeon threw 2.5cm of my leg bones into the rubbish bin.

Weight loss is simple, for me it was all muscle wastage.
I have learnt some big lessons about weight over the last few years. My advice is don't worry about the scales as muscle has the most mass so muscly people are naturally going to be heavy, it's more about body shape and excess fat/fluids. If you have excess weight to shed then exercise will do it but your actual weight might even go up due to muscle building. If you really want to lose it go riding in those old rubber raincoats or similar, sweating will get rid of excess fat quick smart.
I'm attempting to gain weight (20kg) by gaining muscle mass.
I think the mirror test is far better than scales. Do you look good, fit, taught and terrific in front of the mirror?.. I don't. :lol:

Anyway back onto bikes. So I should be riding on the flat to get a reasonable baseline before I tackle some hills?
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby triangle » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:25 pm

Dr Hackenbush wrote:Anyway back onto bikes. So I should be riding on the flat to get a reasonable baseline before I tackle some hills?


Ride whatever suits you and will enable you to spend the most time on your bike. If the hills are too much for you at the moment, forget them for now and go somewhere you can ride on the flats. There is no shame in driving your bike to terrain that suits your current level of fitness. Later, when you have ridden more and you are fitter and stronger, try the hills again. If you still can't do them, keep riding where you can. Then try the hills again. One day you will crack them and you will feel so incredibly good about yourself :-)

A little bit about a relevant recent experience I had - started riding in mid January this year (I live in the hills, too, near Mundaring), sticking to the flattest routes I could find. On the 1st March, having ridden perhaps 500kms in total, I thought I would tackle a hilly route (36kms) through Stoneville and Parkerville. It was murder. I had to dismount three times on steep gradients and ended with an average speed of 21km/h. I tried the same route again on 1st April, having cycled another 800kms or so in the intervening four weeks, and had to dismount twice, completing with an average of 24.1km/h. Two weeks ago, having ridden another 2500kms since my last attempt with plenty of 60km rides through hilly areas around where I live, I rode the same route again, not dismounting once and completing with an average speed of 28km/h. It was easy this time and I could have gone back for a second run if I had the time. All that riding on flat terrain and then progressing to hillier routes as I got fitter paid off :-) Same will apply to you.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Chuck » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:48 pm

triangle wrote:
Dr Hackenbush wrote:Anyway back onto bikes. So I should be riding on the flat to get a reasonable baseline before I tackle some hills?


Ride whatever suits you and will enable you to spend the most time on your bike. If the hills are too much for you at the moment, forget them for now and go somewhere you can ride on the flats. There is no shame in driving your bike to terrain that suits your current level of fitness. Later, when you have ridden more and you are fitter and stronger, try the hills again. If you still can't do them, keep riding where you can. Then try the hills again. One day you will crack them and you will feel so incredibly good about yourself :-)


+1 :)

Have you had a bike fit Dr H ? Given your unfortunate history and the fact that one leg is shorter than the other I think that a proper fit would help enormously comfort wise. As others have said just build and continue building at a rate your body is comfortable with, the upside of cycling is huge :D Good luck with it.

triangle wrote:A little bit about a relevant recent experience I had - started riding in mid January this year (I live in the hills, too, near Mundaring), sticking to the flattest routes I could find. On the 1st March, having ridden perhaps 500kms in total, I thought I would tackle a hilly route (36kms) through Stoneville and Parkerville. It was murder. I had to dismount three times on steep gradients and ended with an average speed of 21km/h. I tried the same route again on 1st April, having cycled another 800kms or so in the intervening four weeks, and had to dismount twice, completing with an average of 24.1km/h. Two weeks ago, having ridden another 2500kms since my last attempt with plenty of 60km rides through hilly areas around where I live, I rode the same route again, not dismounting once and completing with an average speed of 28km/h. It was easy this time and I could have gone back for a second run if I had the time. All that riding on flat terrain and then progressing to hillier routes as I got fitter paid off :-) Same will apply to you.


Nice one 8)
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Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby maDKient » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:31 pm

Dr Hackenbush wrote:Hi maDKient, thanks for your reply.

I'm at a point where I have worn out the physios and doctors, they get you up out of bed and walking again then you're pretty much on your own.
I have got the most out of resistance training/swimming, it's time for me to start doing the hard yards. I think the imbalance is more of a technique thing (strongest leg?) or it might also be shortening of the leg. The surgeon threw 2.5cm of my leg bones into the rubbish bin.

Weight loss is simple, for me it was all muscle wastage.
I have learnt some big lessons about weight over the last few years. My advice is don't worry about the scales as muscle has the most mass so muscly people are naturally going to be heavy, it's more about body shape and excess fat/fluids. If you have excess weight to shed then exercise will do it but your actual weight might even go up due to muscle building. If you really want to lose it go riding in those old rubber raincoats or similar, sweating will get rid of excess fat quick smart.
I'm attempting to gain weight (20kg) by gaining muscle mass.
I think the mirror test is far better than scales. Do you look good, fit, taught and terrific in front of the mirror?.. I don't. :lol:

Anyway back onto bikes. So I should be riding on the flat to get a reasonable baseline before I tackle some hills?


No worries Doc.

If one of your legs is truly shorter than the other a bike fit as somebody has already suggested is essential. It'll be a shame that all your enthusiasm will go to waste if you're not able to enjoy your rides.

It could be a technique thing as you mentioned. If that is the case then try to rectify it mentally and focus on distributing the load equally into both legs.

Again there's no shame in tackling something easier before challenging yourself with hills. Admittedly I'm doing the same ATM. I myself took a long layoff so all I'm focusing on is getting kms under my belt. Then i can think about hills later. Once you'll get 'bike fit' by all means make your rides more challenging.

Lol, I myself have the opposite problem to you - 20kg overweight. So no I don't look all taut and trim. I know what you mean about the mirror assessment though. Scales only tell you so much. Unfortunately my mirror tells me I'm fat haha.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Dr Hackenbush » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:47 am

triangle wrote:
Dr Hackenbush wrote:Anyway back onto bikes. So I should be riding on the flat to get a reasonable baseline before I tackle some hills?


Ride whatever suits you and will enable you to spend the most time on your bike. If the hills are too much for you at the moment, forget them for now and go somewhere you can ride on the flats. There is no shame in driving your bike to terrain that suits your current level of fitness. Later, when you have ridden more and you are fitter and stronger, try the hills again. If you still can't do them, keep riding where you can. Then try the hills again. One day you will crack them and you will feel so incredibly good about yourself :-)

A little bit about a relevant recent experience I had - started riding in mid January this year (I live in the hills, too, near Mundaring), sticking to the flattest routes I could find. On the 1st March, having ridden perhaps 500kms in total, I thought I would tackle a hilly route (36kms) through Stoneville and Parkerville. It was murder. I had to dismount three times on steep gradients and ended with an average speed of 21km/h. I tried the same route again on 1st April, having cycled another 800kms or so in the intervening four weeks, and had to dismount twice, completing with an average of 24.1km/h. Two weeks ago, having ridden another 2500kms since my last attempt with plenty of 60km rides through hilly areas around where I live, I rode the same route again, not dismounting once and completing with an average speed of 28km/h. It was easy this time and I could have gone back for a second run if I had the time. All that riding on flat terrain and then progressing to hillier routes as I got fitter paid off :-) Same will apply to you.

That sounds like good advice.
I went for my daily ride after my last post here and boy what an adventure. I went to the same spot as my last ride as I did that comfortably. I'd spent the last 2 days on the trainer as we had a lot of rain up here, anyway today around 300m from my finishing point my legs (thighs) literally gave out. I was at the point where I really struggled to get one revolution and I stupidly let my heart rule my head and forced myself to the finish. That was a big mistake, luckily getting home was all downhill so I could just coast but when I got home I was quite ill, falling over a couple of times and just feeling generally unwell. So I took myself off to bed and slept for 6 hours. I'm at a loss as to why today was so hard, my speed was similar and I did feel ok until I hit that wall. I think I need to keep an eye on what gear I'm in as it's possible I was pushing a far too high gear.
Tomorrow I'm going to put the bike in the car and head down to the Gt Northern Highway and play chicken with the road trains, they have recently widened a 5km section that is flat and now has a big shoulder that I can ride in and hopefully avoid the trucks.
Motivation shouldn't be an issue, when I was first in my wheelchair I couldn't push it 500m at the end I used to go on 25-30km adventures. Anything can be achieved with enough training and determination. My current short term goal is to make it to the Bindoon Bakery where I can celebrate with one of their seriously good vanilla slices.
I've been thinking more about the leg shortening (the bike was fitted by Wards Cycles in Morley) and I'm thinking I might get some cleats as I'm currently on flat pedals and I can get the physios to build the right shoe up by 25mm. It is only an inch at the end of the day.

The really important bit for me is that my leg is holding up and I'm not getting any extra bone pain at all.

Should I be worrying about cadence at this point? Just guesstimating but I think I'm down around 60 which is too low but will that come up with the fitness or is it something I need to concentrate on?
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Dr Hackenbush » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:55 pm

I was back on the bike again today after the debacle of the other day.
This time I put the bike in the car and went to the flat roads. I managed to do 20k's without a problem. The difference is amazing.
Thanks for the advice guys, greatly appreciated. Now I need a mirror so I can see the road trains coming.
Anyone know of a good mirror?
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby triangle » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:11 pm

Dr Hackenbush wrote:I was back on the bike again today after the debacle of the other day.
This time I put the bike in the car and went to the flat roads. I managed to do 20k's without a problem. The difference is amazing.
Thanks for the advice guys, greatly appreciated. Now I need a mirror so I can see the road trains coming.
Anyone know of a good mirror?


Good job, mate :-) Don't worry about your cadence .. in time you'll naturally find what suits you. Just ride for now and ride lots. It is really that simple. No idea on a mirror, I am afraid - search the 'Buying a bike/parts' forum ...
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby diggo19 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:34 pm

step 1. ride as hard as you can for as long as your legs can take it..
step 2. rest for 30s

repeat.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby London Boy » Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:16 pm

Dr Hackenbush wrote:That sounds like good advice.
I went for my daily ride after my last post here and boy what an adventure. I went to the same spot as my last ride as I did that comfortably. I'd spent the last 2 days on the trainer as we had a lot of rain up here, anyway today around 300m from my finishing point my legs (thighs) literally gave out.
Should I be worrying about cadence at this point? Just guesstimating but I think I'm down around 60 which is too low but will that come up with the fitness or is it something I need to concentrate on?

That bonk... were you adequately fed and hydrated? Lack of food or water can stop you in your tracks, especially if you're riding reasonably hard.

Also, cadence - high is good. You can produce more power for longer at higher rpm, up to a limit where it becomes difficult to maintain the cadence in any gear. I aim for around 95, which is fine for me. Others go lower, some higher. It's down to whatever works best for you. Ulrich was down in the 70's, while Armstrong rode pretty constantly at 110. Both won the tour.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby andie7 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:50 am

For mirror, mirrycle is a good choice.

And for the training tips, I believe the most excellent ones have been mentioned already. If I may just add this,the intervals, which I believe offers a huge fitness return for a comparatively small time investment. Even 20- to 30-second micro-intervals have been shown to increase V02 max, burn fat, and improve endurance.
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Re: Help with training - fitness and endurance

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:45 am

London Boy wrote:Ulrich was down in the 70's, while Armstrong rode pretty constantly at 110.

That's a myth.
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