proposed new law worse than the old

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:40 pm

I put my "bored" smiley up not because I found the maths boring, but rather lack of relevance.

The only sentence I found in the whole post which seemed of relevance to this thread, ie the law, was this one. (I'm ignoring helmets because that discussion belongs elsewhere.)

kris27 wrote:The only reasonable regulation seems to be the SPEED LIMIT - say 40 km/h, this is pretty fast for bicycle.
You may ask, why just speed limit? - Answer is very simple, no one has to argue about technical specs. of an electric motors, gears and what ever might be complicated technical peculiarities.



Kris, are you putting your position on the legislation, or is it just an exercise in physics math?

You say 40 km/h is pretty fast. Okay. Then what? Are you in favour of a higher one, lower one, against e-assistance?

I think you've done the reverse of what my teachers warned against. You've given us the detail of your working out but not supplied the answer. :wink: :lol:

Joe
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by BNA » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:16 pm

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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby zaphod373 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:16 pm

the powered cycles in my area do 60kph, and they dont like using the brakes, as it takes time to return to full speed, they travel same speed as cars, yet zip on to wrong side of road and footpaths, and are friggin dangerous idiots. They are also very loud :D
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby kris27 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:55 pm

What I am trying to say - One can not fight with laws of physics. There for the laws, rules, regulations ...... should be sensible, based on some kind technical and/or scientific facts.
The power of ~ 470 W ( around 470 - this is not a pharmacy ) and this is without any friction, simply shows that 250 W is just not on.

The new legislation for e_bikes, should simply consider just speed limit, without any technical motor specs. I said 40 k/h which I consider adequate, so we can debate this.

My self I found that my average speed is 12-14 k/h, maximum speed I ever made it was ~ 32 k/h and this with motor OFF.
Motor, it is linear motor, on my bike spins the wheel ( unloaded, I mean wheel is not touching a thing ) at maximum of 250 rpm. So in theory I can get on 26" wheels, speed around 30 k/h. If motor is ON - if I exceed 250 rpm, controller turns on to "recharge" so motor actually becomes a generator, and you can feel this ... gets quite hard to pedal.

Have a nice riding day .......
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:42 pm

kris27 wrote:The new legislation for e_bikes, should simply consider just speed limit, without any technical motor specs. I said 40 k/h which I consider adequate, so we can debate this.



40 km/h is FAR too fast on a cycle path mixing with pedestrians.

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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:02 pm

kris27 wrote:What I am trying to say - One can not fight with laws of physics. There for the laws, rules, regulations ...... should be sensible, based on some kind technical and/or scientific facts.


No, laws should not be based on some kind of technical and/or scientific facts. The science should not be IGNORED, but neither should it be the sole desideratum.

Practicality and a look at the greatest good for the greatest number should also be put into the mix.

Motor, it is linear motor, on my bike spins the wheel ( unloaded, I mean wheel is not touching a thing ) at maximum of 250 rpm. So in theory I can get on 26" wheels, speed around 30 k/h. If motor is ON - if I exceed 250 rpm, controller turns on to "recharge" so motor actually becomes a generator, and you can feel this ... gets quite hard to pedal.


My trikes have both got Heinzemann 200/400 watt motors. This motor (from memory) is governed to 193 rpm. This means on one trike with a 16" drive wheel it maxes out at 16 km/h and with the 26" wheel it maxes at 24 km/h. However, unlike your example, if I exceed this speed is does NOT become "hard to pedal". It simply ceases to drive the wheel. Thus there is no impediment for me to go faster than the max motor speed, as would appear in your example. So if I understand your example (and please correct me if you think I am wrong) the more POWERFUL the motor, the more drag it will generate at over-speed. Thus it would seem that your motor governs your speed to 30 km/h, unless it is not under power. So why bother with a more powerful motor?

Secondly, one of the rather feeble arguments that electric vehicles (of any type) come up against is "Oh, it's not really green, is it? I mean, you're still getting CO2 pollution from the power station to charge your batteries." And "Your batteries have a lot of embedded pollution in their manufacture, so your e-vehicle isn't that green, is it?"

So the more powerful your motor, the bigger batteries you will require, and the more power you will need to draw from the grid to recharge.

Thus the arguments noted above have a grain of truth - under certain circumstances.

In order to counter these, (and for other reasons, such as lower cost and greater flexibility) I built my electric system to be able to run entirely off the sun, using photovoltaic panels on board.

Image

These are new panels (about 3 weeks old), which replaced large, less efficient ones I fitted last year.

Even at this time of year, the ammeter tells me that they are pushing just a smidge under .3 amps into the batteries (at 28 volts - causing the regulator to cut in). When summer time comes I'm hoping for about .4-.5 amps.

Quite literally I simply leave my trike in the sun, and its batteries are always charged. Because I only use the motor as it is meant to be used (ie to assist me away from a stop or to climb a hill - NOT to provide constant drive ) then I never have a "flat battery". And because of this I don't need to carry such large batteries, hence the whole outfit is lighter, and uses less material.

Though I haven't yet tried it out fully (I'm waiting for summer) I suspect that my new PV panels will enable me to travel further faster than I would with your BIGGER motor and batteries, since I have little or no need to worry about conserving power.

Your physics may be correct, but you're not applying common sense.

Joe
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:14 pm

Joeblake wrote:Even at this time of year, the ammeter tells me that they are pushing just a smidge under .3 amps into the batteries (at 28 volts - causing the regulator to cut in). When summer time comes I'm hoping for about .4-.5 amps.



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: Just went for a quick ride to the local shopping centre, and noticed that the ammeter at one stage of the journey was showing .4 amps. And that was with light cloud cover. Looking good for summertime.

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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby kris27 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:05 pm

Joeblake wrote:
kris27 wrote:The new legislation for e_bikes, should simply consider just speed limit, without any technical motor specs. I said 40 k/h which I consider adequate, so we can debate this.



40 km/h is FAR too fast on a cycle path mixing with pedestrians.

Joe


We have "moron" drivers, pedestrians and naturally bicycle riders. Some one driving at 40 on foot path must an i....t for sure.
Myself, around shopping centers I get of the bike, it is just to dangerous even at 5k/h thanks to moron pedestrians. Otherwise the foot path is empty, like 1 person per 2 km distance (this seems to be high traffic :lol: ). Going at speed of 20-25 k/h on the nice foot path seems to be safe, most of time the reasonable speed around 15 k/h due to state of the foot path.
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby kris27 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:05 am

Joeblake wrote:
kris27 wrote:What I am trying to say - One can not fight with laws of physics. There for the laws, rules, regulations ...... should be sensible, based on some kind technical and/or scientific facts.


Gee, you got the super-duper motors. I just have made in RC front wheel (pancake motor).
Ha, "going green" .... well, to make a bicycle it takes a lot of energy. But riding the E_vehicle is by far much cleaner than burning the products from oils.
In EU where the battery charging points are very common these days, and FREE recharge, the parking stations, parking lots have big solar power plants. In California the e_car charging points are every where and free. I saw, in Honk Kong shopping and other parking stations FREE car battery power points ( but e_bikes require driving license - :shock: and you do not see them, while on main land China 80% of bicycles sold are e_bikes. This is not funny - estimated 3000 bicycle factories, no one knows exact).

Bigger motor (Watts) higher speed - this is not really true. Even "traditional" motors can be made constant RPM, where linear motors are inherently constant RPM. By saying this - the torque of electric motor is almost infinity, so it will "suck" heaps of current until reaches the specified RPM, it is almost like a short circuit. The e_cars have enormous acceleration so my my e_bike (spins the wheel to often - on wet or sand is just crazy). Had to become familiar with "throttle".

More motor power - this is what we need. As I said originally - 470 W ( 500W ) is almost a minimum, If we take friction say 100 N - we would need around 720 W to climb 10 degrees hill at 10 k/h. So, this is at constant RPM, but more torque is required so more "juice" is taken from battery.
Bigger battery ( more Ah )-> greater range.
In my case, 24V 15Ah gives me around 50k on reasonable flat terrain. So far I found the best range is at constant speed on flat terrain.

Is time for cafe - have a nice e_ride.

Kris
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby cachexian » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:06 am

Hi Kris,

You need to factor in rider input power into your calculations.

I can ride up a 10degree slope at 8kph on my own and at about 18kph with the assistance of the 200W S. Bafang front hub. (and I'd be REALLY surprised if I am putting in 270N). I don't think the 200W motor could drag me up the hill on its own. I tried it once to see but it started making dreadful noises so I stopped the test.

I get about 85km off my 10aH 36volt battery.

The solution is to PEDAL. On that note...I just received my SPD shoes and cleats from Wiggle! Should make the ebike pedalling easier! Very excited. :D

C.
Scott Sub 40 with 200W, 36v Ezee geared front hub motor
and...
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:15 pm

kris27 wrote:well, to make a bicycle it takes a lot of energy.


Compared to what?

A pair of shoes?

In EU where the battery charging points are very common these days, and FREE recharge, the parking stations, parking lots have big solar power plants. In California the e_car charging points are every where and free. I saw, in Honk Kong shopping and other parking stations FREE car battery power points


That's for cars. The relevance to e-assisted bicycles?

cachexian wrote:The solution is to PEDAL. On that note...I just received my SPD shoes and cleats from Wiggle! Should make the ebike pedalling easier! Very excited. :D


What voltage do they run on? Can they be fitted with photovoltaic panels? :wink: :mrgreen:

Joe
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby cachexian » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:25 pm

Joeblake wrote:
cachexian wrote:The solution is to PEDAL. On that note...I just received my SPD shoes and cleats from Wiggle! Should make the ebike pedalling easier! Very excited. :D


What voltage do they run on? Can they be fitted with photovoltaic panels? :wink: :mrgreen:

Joe



Ha. Don't know. Magic I think...They are red and sparkly. I will just click my heels three times and say "work sweet work" and I'll be there in a jiffy! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:47 pm

Well, if the humble bikini can have photoelectrics, why not the shoe?

Image

http://www.gizmag.com/solar-bikini-goes ... ion/18920/

8)

Joe
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:56 pm

COMPLETELY OT - but ...

For the Redneck Greenie...

Image

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Joe
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby zaphod373 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:10 pm

Joeblake wrote:Well, if the humble bikini can have photoelectrics, why not the shoe?

Image

http://www.gizmag.com/solar-bikini-goes ... ion/18920/

8)

Joe


increases ipod life and decreases yours
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250w slower than 200w ebike legislation

Postby alan101 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:15 pm

250w slower than 200w ebike legislation

I took an EU 250w/25kmh speed limited 36v ebike drive wheel to a shop, wanting a throttle controller. It was tested against my 200w ebike motor wheel in a set of forks in a vice, with no load to motor. The 200w unit's 15A controller and 10Ah Li-ion battery was used with both wheels (bypassing the pedalec controller given with the 250w unit). My 3y old 200w motor ran to 28kmh, and the 250w unit ran 27kmh. I have a factory provided dynochart of the 250w unit's power takeup, which maxes at 10.4A; so the 15A controller is not inhibiting either motor. Both are Bafang manufactured motors.

The explanation was given that it's how the motor is built, the controller and battery together that govern how fast the motor wheel will drive. The Li-ion battery and controller were a constant in this test, so apparently the 250w motor wheel was 1kmh slower than the 200w wheel by design.

Incidentally, I get 45kmh out my pushbike without much trouble. I am capable of moderating my speed to suit riding conditions, or I wouldn't have made it to retirment age. Eg. Riders have a brain which the 25kmh state control legislation school tends to ignore.

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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:12 pm

I guess the real test between the two motors would show up ascending a hill. ie which goes up the same hill faster (unassisted).

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Re: 250w slower than 200w ebike legislation

Postby kris27 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:00 pm

alan101 wrote:250w slower than 200w ebike legislation

I took an EU 250w/25kmh speed limited 36v ebike drive wheel to a shop, wanting a throttle controller. It was tested against my 200w ebike motor wheel in a set of forks in a vice, with no load to motor. The 200w unit's 15A controller and 10Ah Li-ion battery was used with both wheels (bypassing the pedalec controller given with the 250w unit).

The explanation was given that it's how the motor is built, the controller and battery together that govern how fast the motor wheel will drive.

Incidentally, I get 45kmh out my pushbike without much trouble. I am capable of moderating my speed to suit riding conditions, or I wouldn't have made it to retirment age. Eg. Riders have a brain which the 25kmh state control legislation school tends to ignore.


At 36V 10AH you have 360 watthours of power available. It can be readily calculated how much range you can get out of this setup. The speed is govern by the controller, in case of in hub motor which most likely is linear motor, the number of pulses/second determines the speed ( or RPM of wheel ). Person that knows a bit of electronics can alter this quite easy. It is irrelevant of the motor power. I have printed circuit board drill with 12V 2W ( DC current ) motor running at 5000 RPM.
Getting 45kmh out of pushbike - look at Tour de France, 28 inch wheels, super light bikes, super fast wheels/tyres averaging 40kmh most of the time. This is beyond my physical capability these days. :-(

Energy to make a bicycle - dig the ore, dig the coal, transport it, melt metals, make tubes, screws, bolts ....??? ... wonder if ever I can save this energy by riding the bicycle or e_bike.

In Denmark, Sweden and some other EU countries I saw, besides the free tyre pumping points in the parks, solar driven e_bike charge points. My sis told me that they have now in local shopping centre e_bike charge points (free).

Riders have brains, you can see this every day. More alert than any pedestrian who are texting while crossing the streets or driving cars.

I still support the notion that the speed limit for e_bikes should be the point of legislation - 40km/h ??? but not the motor power.

Where is Summer ??? I am freezing. Happy riding.
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:10 pm

Joeblake wrote:I guess the real test between the two motors would show up ascending a hill. ie which goes up the same hill faster (unassisted).

Joe



Of course you also have to factor in the occasional strong headwhinge that recurs.

:lol:

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Why ebikes may not need speed limiting

Postby alan101 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:06 pm

Ebike motor characteristics and speed limiting Introduction. Ken has an electronics engineer background, but currently works in IT. He doesn't have an ebike, although has considered having one previously. He's dispassionate about the 25kmh pedalec cut-off question, and did this to look at ebike motor characteristics.

We had earlier interacted thus. (Ken) Re.'Brushless motors which are a bit after my time as they rely heavily on electronic control. Basically their power peaks at half their absolute maximum speed whilst torque is maximum at stalling speed. I'm interested to see if there is an optimum for both speed on the flat and climbing. I suspect not, so you need to design for one or the other.'.

(Alan) 'My Suzho Bafang brushless hub motor uses somewhere around 1:14 gear reduction in the hub (3 nylon planetary gears). Gearing lets the motor rev high, but give torque at wheel speed. It makes a noise like 'a tram starting off' below 26.5 kmh, and then is happily in it's torque range around 27-32kmh and really does nothing (beyond it's torque curve) >34kmh. There is an electronic controller in my rack soft pack in front of the battery, which thumb throttle controls'.

Ken's treatise was then developed: Interesting that you mention a torque curve. As I understand it, a DC Motor (brushed or brushless) has a linear torque vs rpm "curve". Max torque occurs at stall and zero torque at maximum rpm. This is the same with our human legs by the way.

So there is a power curve where maximum power occurs at 1/2 max rpm and half max torque. If I recall right its due to the back EMF produced in the windings - a voltage that is generated that opposes the battery voltage and reduces the current and therefore the torque (since torque is proportional to current).

The power curve is an inverted parabola so what you are calling as a torque range is really a power range. This has interesting implications regarding speed limiting because as you go faster you need more power but the DC motor starts to lose power above 1/2 max rpm. Note: I'm assuming the electronic controller for a brushless DC motor does not do anything fancy to overcome this (e.g. by tweaking the voltage)

Context. The rpm figures used below are at the hub of bike wheel, so after any gearing internal to the motor. Broad parameters are motor doing eg 5400 rpm and wheel 360rpm using a 1:14 planetary reduction gear in the hub motor assembly.

Assuming a 250W hub motor on a 26inch wheel, then 60 wheel rpm translates to 7km/h. So you could design your motor to have peak power at about 300 wheel rpm which allows a 100kg rider+bike to cruise on the flat at 36km/h. This would basically be its top speed (except downhill) since any faster requires more power but you are already at peak. But going uphill would be an issue because a 4% grade at that speed requires some 630W and 8% requires over 1000W.

You could instead design peak power to occur at 180 wheel rpm or 22km/h (so max rpm is 360). At 300 wheel rpm you would be getting (I think) around 140W - not enough. At 270 wheel rpm you get 190W which would keep you going at 32km/h which then becomes your top speed on the flat. On a 4% grade at 180 wheel rpm you are still short of the 307W you need (without pedalling) and well short of the 540W you need for 8%.

So as you can see, as you design more for climbing hills you reduce your top speed on the flat. So speed limiting circuitry is really unnecessary - its an inbuilt characteristic of the motor unless you have specifically designed it for speed on the flat and no climbing ability.
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby cachexian » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:36 am

Here's an interesting idea...

Design a bike with twin 200W motors and a clever controller that switches power between the motors as maximum speed is reached in the one.

Say a rear hub that is geared low to provide excellent and efficient hill climbing ability and a front hub that is geared to rotate fast to provide assistance at higher speeds. This would then mean that you could have the best of both worlds.

The controller would have to be designed so that it transferred power between the motors depending on wheel rotation speed ensuring a maximum of 200W at all times.

Suzhuo Bafang Motor weight is around 3kg so it would not be a massive weight penalty I'd think.

Can those clever electrical engineering types suggest that it would be possible to design such an electronic controller?

C
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby KenGS » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:45 pm

I suspect it would be easier to connect the motor to the drive chain so you can use the gears.
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby cachexian » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:54 pm

I dare say that's true but then you have all the disadvantages of a chain drive system. I just was wondering if a dual hub drive system set up was feasible. No doubt it's unlikely to be cost effective...
Oh well, just an idea.
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:04 pm

OT Again ...


No solution to a problem is so complicated that when looked at correctly, it can't be made even more complicated.

:lol: :lol:

Image
Image
http://www.gizmag.com/ecortina-hybrid-e ... cle/19211/

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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:10 pm

“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.”

Albert Einstein


Image
:lol: :lol:

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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Comedian » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:32 pm

stolennomenclature wrote:
Its just a thought but - if the authorities allowed more powerful motors on electric bicycles, they would'nt need to ride on bike paths - they could ride on the road with the other fast traffic. :)


So why don't they just buy an electric scooter again? These vehicles are specifically designed for this.

I've only skimmed a few posts but it seems like the same old thing. Someone wants an electric motorbike that they don't have to register and can ride on bicycle infrastructure - most likely while claiming it's one less car. :shock: The reality is they can go within the regulations or get an electric mobility scooter or electric scooter. There is no need for an electric motorbike to masquerade as a push bike and I don't think it helps. IMHO :shock:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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