proposed new law worse than the old

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby diggler » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:38 am

In the United States, they allow 750 W and a maximum speed of 32km/h. Very generous.
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by BNA » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:43 am

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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby cachexian » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:43 am

That Ecortina bike looks very cool! I wouldn't fancy having to remove that rear wheel to patch an inner tube!!!! :o
And just imagine trying to clean and lube all those chains.
IMO the fewer moving parts in the drive train the better. If they didn't cost around $2500 I'd be a rohloff speed hub man for sure.
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Low weight is key to good performance

Postby alan101 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:21 pm

Comment on a couple of points raised above. The two motor idea shows innovative thinking, but I wouldn't elect that path myself. I upgraded my first ebike (Shogun flat bar alum hybrid, 14kg, 2" fork suspension) by moving the ebike kit over to a Jamis Coda Sport ($750, flat bar steel, 11.8kg, rigid fork) to save 2.2kg and go from 21spd to 27spd at a cost of $750 for the bike. Saving 2.2kg for $750 was a pretty good price to pay. You might save 0.5kg going from Shimano Ultegra to Dura Ace groupset at a cost of +$1000. The better gearing and 2.2kg saving saw me drop my 34.4km commute time to work by 5 mins, to 1'15". Keeping the weight down and fitness up is key to good cycling performance.

It concerns me that this 250w/25kmh EU standard will kill this type of innovation and sportiness, and leave us with a bland vanilla ebike environment. My 200w ebike does 32-34kmh before the motor has nil input, compared with the EU unit doing 23-25kmh when the motor cuts out. Ebikes are relatively heavy, and one won't pedal up the speed beyond motor cutout by more than about 4kmh (for >1km). Despite what Bicycle Victoria, Bicycle Retailers Assn and transport ministers tell us, 'you can still pedal up the speed'! People who say that fairly certainly have never ridden an ebike, and dis-service a sector they purport to represent. There's no known issue with 200w ebike safety in Australia, so why are we going to go backwards with speed limiting?

The A2B ebike is an example of an unsporty rig. I believe it's 35kg, and has big fat tyres for maximum drag, with full suspension to drain energy from pedal strokes. I'd call it slow, heavy, and a slave to fashion. My Jamis Coda Sport ebike is 21kg with lights, bell, ergo bar extensions, pedal straps, a decent saddle and mudguards.

The US doesn't have one ebike standard. In California, they're allowed 1000w ebikes. Turn blinkers and a horn might come into play. Batteries are something of a given, and a 1000w ebike may only travel 20% the distance of a 200w ebike with a chosen battery; although some variable (speed/drag?) probably makes this equation more complicated. So piling on the power is not necessarily a desirable trait, although in moderation gains are possible. I've seen a YouTube video of a Yank with a big motor trying to do an ebike on the cheap, with a big plastic box on the rear rack loaded with SLA batteries. The weight involved would completely annul the rig's sportiness, probably collapse the rack and/or rear wheel within a month, and generally not make for a decent ride. The evolution of batteries in the past decade is what's making ebikes so cool: SLA >NiCad > NiMh> Li-ion. SLA (lead) were just heavy, and NiCads had the memory issue with charging. A Li battery is 40% more powerful than an NiMh at a given weight. A 4kg Li battery is about equal to 16kg SLA in available power. My new 14Ah Li-ion battery ($700) spec says 75km range (flat/calm) with a 200w motor.

Electric mobility scooters got a mention above. In Victoria, they're limited to maximum 10kmh. I talked with EVS about these, and asked if they had NiMh or Li-ion battery options. They don't, the SLA battery counts for ballast to keep them upright! None the less, they can be a boon letting oldies get about. Goes to show though, keep fit and cycle into your old age and you get 3x speed.
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:32 pm

alan101 wrote: It concerns me that this 250w/25kmh EU standard will kill this type of innovation and sportiness to some extent, and leave us with a bland vanilla ebike environment.


I'm not sure where the "sportiness" comes in. Look at the huge fuss that arose when it was (jokingly) suggested that Fabulara had an electric motor in his bike during Paris-Roubaix a couple of years ago.

:lol: :lol:


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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:06 pm

I said before about solutions being complicated ... this whole debate is a very good example of approaching a problem in the wrong way.

The article in Gizmac gives this rationale for the creation of the eCortina:

Electric bicycles, with some exceptions, generally fall into one of two categories: those that can be powered solely by their motor, and those in which the motor is only used to augment the rider's pedaling power (commonly known as "pedelecs," or pedal-electrics). In both cases, they can also simply be pedaled, without any contribution from the motor. California electric vehicle designer Roy Prince, however, decided that he wanted all three - a bike that could be motor-driven, pedal-assisted, or just plain pedaled. The result is his intriguing creation, the eCortina v2 hybrid.


The "solution" is an absolute dog's dinner. The apparent "problem" becomes non-existent when you remove the pedelec control. I've fitted an electric motor with a motorcycle type handlebar throttle. It ticks all the boxes. I can do all three. I just twist the throttle (or not). This gives me a precise control on exactly how much power goes to the driven wheel. What could be simpler? No necessity for multiple chains, mounting brackets for the motor in difficult positions.

No necessity to have two motors with the difficulties involved in sharing the power safely.

The debate should be about the pedelec control, NOT the amount of power. That "problem" can be SIMPLY (and cheaply) solved by getting an e-scooter.

The legislation should be about electric motors assisting the pedal cyclist, NOT about electric powered vehicles.

I wouldn't call the eCortina a total failure. There's no such thing. It can always be used as a bad example, showing how NOT to approach a problem.


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Sportiness

Postby alan101 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:13 pm

I think Fabulara on an ebike in Paris-Roubaix would have been great sport! It was no joke, they started X-raying bikes from that bogus assertion. The common fear, loathing and rejection attitude of orthodox cyclists to ebikers; despite the improbability of the assertion.

Joe, no disrespect to SLA battery users intended. Your rig is great. With a recumbent trike, you spread battery weight across 2 wheels, so less chance of spokes going sproing. I've done wheel rebuilds on both my ebikes, with just a 4kg Li battery; and had both bikes' racks fail. I remedied the rack issue by fabricating 10mm rod steel struts at the axle end, to replace hollow alum.

If one dropped 12kg in battery weight for equal performance, though, you would have a sportier ride. A recumbent has a low centre of gravity; but 12kg up on a normal bike's rack exerts a lot of influence when cornering or hammering over rough bits, apart from extra effort accelerating or stopping.

(general interest) Flecc of UK's Pedalec forum sent me this recently: 'I think the combination of Europe's hills and the restrictive EU legislation is largely what's turned the market to crank drives. Restricted power hub motors are poor on hills compared to crank systems driving through the gears, and the 25 kph top assisted speed means people want free running systems above that for cycling faster without power. Explore the links below and the links within them to see just a part of what's happening here':

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... t%3D410636

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... =&ie=UTF-8

Anyone unsure of the difference between an ebike and e-motorcycle could check this e-motorcycle out:
eSuperSport electric motorcycle: 67hp (50Kw) peak power, 7.7Kw LiFePO4 battery, 120km range, 213kg. US$17,995. 100mph capable.
http://www.gizmag.com/roehr-unveils-esu ... dium=email

And: MotoCzysz, from Portland, Oregon, narrowly missed out on recording the first 100mph lap by an electric bike at the Isle of Man TT Races.
http://www.iomtt.com/News/2010/06/10/Mo ... 10-TT.aspx

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German ebike race

Postby alan101 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:23 pm

Here's a 3-4 min video of a second annual German ebike race, Hybrid Super Cup 2011. A great assortment of ebikes, including recumbents, on the track. It may have run in parallel with the recent bike trade show in Germany. Video is at bottom of linked page. Ebikes aren't sporty?!

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... A73KJu36jg
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Re: Sportiness

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:38 pm

alan101 wrote:Joe, no disrespect to SLA battery users intended. Your rig is great. With a recumbent trike, you spread battery weight across 2 wheels, so less chance of spokes going sproing. I've done wheel rebuilds on both my ebikes, with just a 4kg Li battery; and had both bikes' racks fail. I remedied the rack issue by fabricating 10mm rod steel struts at the axle end, to replace hollow alum.

If one dropped 12kg in battery weight for equal performance, though, you would have a sportier ride. A recumbent has a low centre of gravity; but 12kg up on a normal bike's rack exerts a lot of influence when cornering or hammering over rough bits, apart from extra effort accelerating or stopping.
Alan


Again, you look at the problem from the wrong angle. It's got nothing to do with SLA batteries. I only use them because they are cheap and reliable, and I'm not going to waste money on buying Li-Ions unnecessarily. I can't find smaller batteries that are cheaper than the ones I'm currently using.

By fitting my photovoltaic panels I can reduce the size of the batteries (regardless of what they're made of) because as I ride the batteries are being recharged. The PVs are lighter and cheaper than buying Li-Ion batteries, and will last longer.

The weight of the batteries (hence cost) ONLY becomes a problem if you wish to ride on the motor at all times, and at high speed. If I use the motor to assist me occasionally the range is really governed by terrain (steepness of the hills) and the amount of sunlight.

So in all I can ride as far as I like at absolutely no running cost at an average speed (including riding up Welshpool Road) of about 18-19 km/h. To me, THOSE are the important figures, not what top speed I can reach. It's a meaningless figure.

I never disputed that e-bikes weren't sporty. I just question the relevance of the issue. Can you point to any clause in the proposed legislation that deals with competition or sports?

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Re: Sportiness

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:51 pm

alan101 wrote:Anyone unsure of the difference between an ebike and e-motorcycle could check this e-motorcycle out:
eSuperSport electric motorcycle: 67hp (50Kw) peak power, 7.7Kw LiFePO4 battery, 120km range, 213kg. US$17,995. 100mph capable.
http://www.gizmag.com/roehr-unveils-esu ... dium=email

And: MotoCzysz, from Portland, Oregon, narrowly missed out on recording the first 100mph lap by an electric bike at the Isle of Man TT Races.
http://www.iomtt.com/News/2010/06/10/Mo ... 10-TT.aspx

Alan



Please note at the very top of the thread:
Forum rules

This new section is on trial. If ebikes are not your thing, then just ignore this forum. Not for scooters and 'non pedal' vehicles.


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Re: Sportiness

Postby alan101 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:10 pm

[quote="Joeblake"][quote="alan101"] "The PVs are lighter and cheaper than buying Li-Ion batteries, and will last longer".

Solar panels don't work without a battery to charge. The SLA battery with a solar array is heavier than than a Li-ion battery for equivalent output. For a 34km commute, speed is an important factor and I'd be using my Kawasaki VN800 if I had to spend an extra hour a day commuting. I'm not approaching the problem from the wrong angle, my ebike works fine. Your solar/SLA rig does what you want, and is advanced for being independent of the electricity grid; as well as looking very cool. They say that weight is an advantage for downhill work, too!

I'm not doing promo for e-motorcycles, Joe. Someone made a cheap shot this week at wanting an ebike that goes >25kmh by saying they should get an e-scooter. I put up the e-motorcycle reference to show that there's a world of difference between an ebike and an e-motorcycle. Being electric, I thought it interesting to see how fast and far 2-wheel electric transport is evolving. This forum's ebike genre has been running rather long to be calling it a 'trial'. If you want to be pedantic, I'll hold to the regs though. I won't be installing an SLA battery to my ebike, however.
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Aust Post ebike rollout

Postby alan101 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:19 pm

During the past year, AustPost did a trial of 300 ebikes using EVS (Hallam, Vic) as their supplier and development consultant. From this, they now expect to roll out 1,000 ebikes nationally by 31/12/2011. Obviously, they had an opportunity to finely tune their ideal ebike with the 300 unit trail.

Their rollout ebikes weigh 38kg (without mail), and are using a wheel/motor combination that results in an 18kmh top speed. They have a 36V 200w motor with 10-14Ah Li battery. I was in EVS last week, and they had 4 red AustPost e-trikes (plastic mail box aft, between 2 rear wheels) in for a service from South Australia. Sorry, not recumbent. There can be little doubt that this weight and speed are appropriate for the job of work these rigs are designed for. A postie can expect to pass 1,000 houses in a mail run.

No motorcycle license or rego requirement for casual staff are benefits. I've also heard that this choice was based on saving X amount of carbon pollution, eg reducing AustPost's greenhouse footprint.

Questions. Did they elect a 200w motor because it gives better range than a 250w, or out of pragmatic frustration that fed Dept of Infrastructure need an inordinate amount of time to copy an EU standard? Another Q is, are they denying cyclist posties the chance to crank their legs off everyday, or is this taking motorcycles off the road and using something more efficient?

With an ebike, efficiency doesn't just relate to speed, it also encompasses distance. A 50km range ebike with a 5% efficiency gain stands to travel 2.5km further. Parameters include: friction of tyres on ground, wind resistance and energy input; and perhaps mental stamina. Incidentally with cycling, over 30kmh energy input climbs alarmingly due to wind resistance, which is another reason why a 200-250w ebike doesn't need speed limiting.

An interesting development in battery material. 'Aluminum-Celmet material could boost the range of electric vehicles by 200 percent'. Sumitomo Electric has set up a small-scale production line in Osaka in an effort to accelerate development of Aluminum-Cemet with an eye towards mass production and commercialization for such applications.
http://www.gizmag.com/aluminum-celmet-b ... ity/19246/
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby cachexian » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:39 pm

In defence of Alan - I think that the point he was trying to make was valid - that Ebikes are different from electric motorbikes - and should not be construed as a breach of forum rules.


Alan, Just wondering...when you moved from the Shogun to the Jamis did you have EVS relace the same motor into the 700c wheel? This would probably go to explaining why you have a top speed higher than mine. Perhaps you could start a new thread to discuss it because this is exactly what I was considering doing...
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:51 pm

cachexian wrote:In defence of Alan - I think that the point he was trying to make was valid - that Ebikes are different from electric motorbikes - and should not be construed as a breach of forum rules.




Again ... simply a question of relevance.

This thread is about the law.


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Ebike upgrade, 250w performance, German 500w ebike class

Postby alan101 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:39 pm

Hi Cachexian. I swapped my ebike kit from Shogun to Jamis myself at home without modification, and the 700c motor wheel was common to both bikes. Cable ties were a key ingredient. The Jamis did perform a bit better, and is 2.2kg lighter and I went from 21 speed (Tourney) to 27 spd (Deore). The Tourney frequently over-shot 4th gear on downshifting, and a Deore derailleur didn't fix this; so was the catalyst for my upgrade. If you used a hub motor designed for a small wheel (20, 22, or 26") and put this in a 700c wheel you'd cover more distance for a given rpm (eg go faster). However, I understand that these small hub motors are designed to work in a fairly narrow power band (I'd guess 26-32kmh on my 200w Bafang, with noise <26kmh and no power >34kmh)), so you could end up short on power when hills or headwinds come up, or you get chubby after Xmas dinner. It'd be interesting territory to explore, but I'm not too optimistic - no such thing as a free lunch. It'd be great to hear how anyone's fared with this approach.

I went to China for a holiday last year with an order in for a Bafang 250w hub motor and throttle controller, but the dim Bafang chap I dealt with mucked up the order and pulled something together overnight when I surprised him by arriving on the designated day. I ended up with a pedalec 250 hub motor (not laced) and controller (brake handle motor cutouts and crank sensor, no throttle). Incidentally, Bafang couldn't supply a battery bag or battery. I had this hub motor laced to a Mavic A719 rim at Cecil Walkers (Melb, $210 labour, rim and DT Swiss spokes). My Bafang contact said it would run alright using my original 200w throttle controller, but I spent $A65 extra to have a matched controller; which turned out to be not what I ordered (eg pedalec). It was a Friday and chap left the co that day, and we had next city to visit; so no chance to negotiate swap. This 250w motor runs 1kmh slower than my 200w in a bench test, using common throttle controller and 10AH li-ion battery. It's a disappointment on the road, and I expect to swap back in my 2y old 200w motor. Total cost of experimental 250w motor wheel about $450. Incidentally, a 15Ah throttle controller is about $85 at EVS, although I replaced the thumb throttle 6mo ago for $100 (seen these for $35 online, but had doubts about matching with controller). I can't report on 250w motor benefits in hills, as it's flat around here.

It's the 250w wheel I had in at EVS recently. Their mechanic said my orignal 15Ah controller was not holding back this 10.4A max (Bafang dynochart) 250w motor. EVS had a 20A controller, but the mechanic said this wouldn't make it go faster and just generate more heat (eg inefficient). Final explanation was that the motor/controller/battery are designed together. This pedalec motor is not going to exceed it's design parameter by much, that being a 23-25kmh cutout to the motor (by pedalec crank sensor). I find it manages 27kmh (maybe 28kmh) on the road pedal assisted in my Jamis Coda Sport.

(general interest) Ebike law is up for revision, and something that needs consideration is where the line gets drawn between e-scotters/motorcycle and ebikes. It would be possible to have a concessional moped level ebike class, where >200-250w could be considered. Germany generate 25% of their electricity via renewables (eg solar panels + wind) these days due to the success of their rebate system for green energy (eg gross power produced vs our net - power left after you've used some). Flecc of UK's Pedalec forum said this about the 250w/25kmh EU legislation, 'I think much of the problem is that Europe has set such a comprehensive set of standards that other legislatures see their adoption as a convenient low cost, low hassle option. The more it spreads, the more it's likely too. There is some light within Europe though, since Germany has high speed (40 kph) and higher power (500 watt) classes of e-bike, though they do have extra provisions like registration and compulsory insurance'.

I understand that although the fed Dept of Infrastructure chaps have ridden ebikes, they have little understanding of what they are and how electric vehicles function. I'm not holding my breath that we'll get other than the EU standard, and in my opinion that is taking ebikes backward in Australia. A couple of 75y ebikers I know aren't worried about the 25kmh cutoff, and reckon the extra 50w will be good on hills. For this commuter in the outer suburbs, longer trip time will = hop on the 800cc motorcycle. I do a Beach Rd run on the weekend, and manage an av speed of 29.9kmh over the 50km with my Fuji carbon roadie (no power assist). Funny thing with av speed is, you have to go >30kmh to make up for the time you spent <30kmh; which leaves us where if we can't go >25kmh? Tour de France Stage 16 last night had leaders log an av speed of 46.1kmh over about 170km. Australia is going to peg ebikes to the level of a $100 K-Mart mtb.

The huge advantage which the EU 250w standard brings is access to a lot of world class ebike brands. However, if it's so good why can't it sell on it's merits, and leave me my throttle and no motor cutoff? I'm aware that the proposed 250w ebike standard in Australia was developed to suit retailers, and basically done without consulting ebikers or existing ebike manaufacturers; eg a spit in the eye to some hard working and reputable companies. Keep exporting jobs overseas. The Australian cringe factor: if it's from overseas it must be better. It's also predicated on pedestrians using shared paths, rather than how fast we ride in amongst traffic. Who cycles to work without using the road? Plenty of pedestrians get whacked each year by cars, but are we proposing limiting them to 25kmh? - No way! Small wonder that climate change is an issue with this level of negative inertia in a developed country, referring to 2y+ to copy someone else's (EU, Jap) existing standard.
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Automatic ebike transmission (+ coaster brake)

Postby alan101 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:18 pm

I'm posting this as an example of the type of technology that Australian ebikers miss out on with our current 200w legal limit. I'd regard this as an unnecessary complication, but for the casual user with little comprehension about gear ratios it's probably progressive. Note, 'enhanced riding performance and increased energy efficiency'. Shimano Ultegra groupset are coming out with an electronic derailleur/shifter in 2012, too. Cadel Evans is using a Dura Ace electronic shifter in 2011 TdF, too; having shifted over from Campy in 2010.

Citation:
BAD NAUHEIM, Germany - The JD Group, manufacturer of bicycle components and developer of electric technology for electric bicycles, is announcing a new automatic gear
shifting system in its TranzX PST powered e-bikes. The cyclist can choose between a fully-automatic or semi-automatic mode to effortlessly change gears. At Bike Expo in
Munich which will start next Thursday, July 21st, the bicycle industry will have the chance to get the first glimps of this new of this technology in detail for introduction in model year 2012.

The Automatic Gear Transmission (AGT) is a computer-controlled system for e-bikes which constantly calculates the optimal gear ratio to smoothly shift to the precise gear
necessary to keep the rider at an ideal cadence. Next to that, as the system selects automatically the optimal gear ratio, extensive usage of the battery capacity is avoided.
“AGT is an outstanding innovation that will further boost the e-bike’s acceptance among casual cyclists. By merging this new automatic gearing system with TranzX PST, we are maximizing the potential of e-bikes to their fullest capacity. This is a logical and forwardlooking development that will generate new impulses and opportunities for the e-bike market,” says Johnson Cho, CEO of the JD Group in a press release.

Besides a significantly higher level of driving comfort and enhanced riding performance, the AGT technology above all, increases energy efficiency. This is especially important for e-bikes where undershifting or overshifting results in undermining the electric system’s effectiveness. JD’s automatic transmission allows an optimization of the power ratio, generating higher acceleration speeds and moreover achieving greater riding distances. Without any restrictions, the AGT technology can easily be integrated into TranzX PST powered e-bikes. In particular, the combination of this technology with a coaster brake is an important technical feature and vital benefit for manufacturers catering to casual cyclists.

The Winora Group will be the first to launch e-bike models equipped with JD’s AGT technology during Eurobike 2011. These fully automatic TranzX PST powered e-bikes will
be available to dealers for 2012 under the Winora Comfort Series or under the Hercules Touring Series.
Published (AT) 19-07-2011
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Re: Automatic ebike transmission (+ coaster brake)

Postby diggler » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:05 pm

alan101 wrote:I'm posting this as an example of the type of technology that Australian ebikers miss out on with our current 200w legal limit. I'd regard this as an unnecessary complication, but for the casual user with little comprehension about gear ratios it's probably progressive. Note, 'enhanced riding performance and increased energy efficiency'. Shimano Ultegra groupset are coming out with an electronic derailleur/shifter in 2012, too. Cadel Evans is using a Dura Ace electronic shifter in 2011 TdF, too; having shifted over from Campy in 2010.

Citation:
BAD NAUHEIM, Germany - The JD Group, manufacturer of bicycle components and developer of electric technology for electric bicycles, is announcing a new automatic gear
shifting system in its TranzX PST powered e-bikes. The cyclist can choose between a fully-automatic or semi-automatic mode to effortlessly change gears. At Bike Expo in
Munich which will start next Thursday, July 21st, the bicycle industry will have the chance to get the first glimps of this new of this technology in detail for introduction in model year 2012.

The Automatic Gear Transmission (AGT) is a computer-controlled system for e-bikes which constantly calculates the optimal gear ratio to smoothly shift to the precise gear
necessary to keep the rider at an ideal cadence. Next to that, as the system selects automatically the optimal gear ratio, extensive usage of the battery capacity is avoided.
“AGT is an outstanding innovation that will further boost the e-bike’s acceptance among casual cyclists. By merging this new automatic gearing system with TranzX PST, we are maximizing the potential of e-bikes to their fullest capacity. This is a logical and forwardlooking development that will generate new impulses and opportunities for the e-bike market,” says Johnson Cho, CEO of the JD Group in a press release.

Besides a significantly higher level of driving comfort and enhanced riding performance, the AGT technology above all, increases energy efficiency. This is especially important for e-bikes where undershifting or overshifting results in undermining the electric system’s effectiveness. JD’s automatic transmission allows an optimization of the power ratio, generating higher acceleration speeds and moreover achieving greater riding distances. Without any restrictions, the AGT technology can easily be integrated into TranzX PST powered e-bikes. In particular, the combination of this technology with a coaster brake is an important technical feature and vital benefit for manufacturers catering to casual cyclists.

The Winora Group will be the first to launch e-bike models equipped with JD’s AGT technology during Eurobike 2011. These fully automatic TranzX PST powered e-bikes will
be available to dealers for 2012 under the Winora Comfort Series or under the Hercules Touring Series.
Published (AT) 19-07-2011


re electronic gear shifting - if it is on Cadel Evans' bike, this technology will be available for regular push bikes in Australia won't it?

re the rest of the article, if we have a 250w limit, doesn't that mean anything above that can still be registered as a motor bike and hence become available in Australia?
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Re: Automatic ebike transmission (+ coaster brake)

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:31 pm

diggler wrote:re the rest of the article, if we have a 250w limit, doesn't that mean anything above that can still be registered as a motor bike and hence become available in Australia?


To be registered as road worthy they would then have to comply with all the other requirements, and they are not easy to meet. e-bikes are, in almost all respects, a bike. Outside of the motor they share little else with a scooter or motor bike or car.

It has to be acknowledged that having the lowest end of power allowed will, occasionally or often, reduce the choices available, including gearing.

Of course, one suspects that, with great battery technology and electronics, we will soon have similar technology for regular bikes too. That would certainly get more people riding. It is not only helmets and lack of paths that stop the masses from riding bikes. (Is that what Diggler is referring to?)
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Re: Automatic ebike transmission (+ coaster brake)

Postby diggler » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:09 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
diggler wrote:re the rest of the article, if we have a 250w limit, doesn't that mean anything above that can still be registered as a motor bike and hence become available in Australia?


To be registered as road worthy they would then have to comply with all the other requirements, and they are not easy to meet. e-bikes are, in almost all respects, a bike. Outside of the motor they share little else with a scooter or motor bike or car.

It has to be acknowledged that having the lowest end of power allowed will, occasionally or often, reduce the choices available, including gearing.

Of course, one suspects that, with great battery technology and electronics, we will soon have similar technology for regular bikes too. That would certainly get more people riding. It is not only helmets and lack of paths that stop the masses from riding bikes. (Is that what Diggler is referring to?)


I'm not sure great battery technology and electronics would necessarily get more people riding. Even with the very liberal laws in the US, the streets are hardly filled with electric bikes.
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Dura-Ace Di2 rear derailleur

Postby alan101 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:48 pm

Diggler,

The 'Shimano Dura Ace Di2 7970 10 Speed Rear Derailleur' has been commercially available during the past year.
Digital Integrated Intelligence or Di2: with programmed automatic motion at the touch of a switch the Dura-Ace Di2 rear derailleur is quick, smooth and effortless, making for unmatched drivetrain efficiency. $A594 with free postage from Wiggle (UK), link below.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-dura-ac ... ailleur-1/

Shimano has 6 quality levels of road groupset. Groupsets include: cranks/front sprockets, cassette, front and rear derailleurs, shifters, bottom bracket and sometimes brakes and/or wheels. Second down from Dura Ace is Ultegra, and that's something of a sweet spot for high quality at an affordable price. The electronic Ultegra derailleur will come in at a much more affordable level, with release in 2012, although this linked Di2 surprised me as I thought they were $4000 early last year. You still push a button to shift with these. The higher the groupset, the lighter and better machined - eg different angles on different sprocket teeth and pegs to help lift the chain on shifting. The cranks on Dura Ace and Ultegra are hollow. The brakes use a cam to accentuate brake lever control, are adjustable by a simple lever, and release the wheel without removing any parts.A TdF Specialized ad says that it takes 5w to push 1kg; hence, lose 10kg in body/bike weight, and you've gained the equivalent of 50w power output.

A friend in LA emailed me last week, and had a condescending (or pragmatic) attitude to bikes: "The smog going over that hill would make biking without a mask fool-hearty. Bike lanes should be as far from autos as possible, maybe under ground". They don't have bike lanes next to freeways, and he reckoned the leisure rider gets scared from the sport riders whizzing by; as well as new gen people being online to the exclusion of cycling. I gained the impression that the streets are so filled with cars and the air with smog, that perhaps cycling isn't as much fun there as in Melbourne. It's been implied that not many people use ebikes in Australia, and it's true they're a niche market. However, there are 120mil ebikes and e-scotters in China, up from 60,000 in 1996. Perhaps the Australian client base have been put on the back foot waiting 2y for the more powerful proposed 250w EU ebikes.

To register an ebike, I can envisage needing turn blinkers, a horn, head/tail lights; wear an approved motorcycle helmet; annual registration/insurance fee, and motorcycle drivers license. You can buy a very cheap 250cc Chinese motorcycle in Melbourne, but you can't drive it on the road because it isn't compliant with some physical parameter or other. Eg a Yamaha is made to comply, and the Chinese unit isn't. Not sure where this would leave you with a 500w ebike at the road testing station. Hence, I earlier mentioned need for the proposed new Australian ebike (pedal assisted cycle, PAC))standard to have a concessional moped level class for ebikes that are >250w and faster than a pedalec's 25kmh cutout to motor. At 250w we're talking 0.35hp, you realise?! Phil Liggit commenting 2d ago on the Tour de France mentioned one cyclist puts out 1400w on steep hill climbs.
Last edited by alan101 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:17 pm

Durace, I am not talking about power assisted bikes this time. I am thinking of 100& pedalled bikes that will shift and set the gears to a consistently efficient and least uncomfortable setting for a (non) rider who is put off by the complexity of shifting derailleurs.

With affordable and reliable processors and batteries that require minimal attention such as charging all the time I believe that it may be something on the horizon. Of course, it will require a demand but I sense from my own observations that the pool of who do not ride because of hesitation in confronting derailleur gearing.

It could be that is will appear first on e-bikes however.
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Re: Dura-Ace Di2 rear derailleur

Postby diggler » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:30 pm

alan101 wrote:Diggler,

The 'Shimano Dura Ace Di2 7970 10 Speed Rear Derailleur' has been commercially available during the past year.
Digital Integrated Intelligence or Di2: with programmed automatic motion at the touch of a switch the Dura-Ace Di2 rear derailleur is quick, smooth and effortless, making for unmatched drivetrain efficiency. $A594 with free postage from Wiggle (UK), link below.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-dura-ac ... ailleur-1/

Shimano has 6 quality levels of road groupset. Groupsets include: cranks/front sprockets, cassette, front and rear derailleurs, shifters, bottom bracket and sometimes brakes and/or wheels. Second down from Dura Ace is Ultegra, and that's something of a sweet spot for high quality at an affordable price. The electronic Ultegra derailleur will come in at a much more affordable level, with release in 2012, although this linked Di2 surprised me as I thought they were $4000 early last year. You still push a button to shift with these. The higher the groupset, the lighter and better machined - eg different angles on different sprocket teeth and pegs to help lift the chain on shifting. The cranks on Dura Ace and Ultegra are hollow. The brakes use a cam to accentuate brake lever control, are adjustable by a simple lever, and release the wheel without removing any parts.

A friend in LA emailed me last week, and had a condescending (or pragmatic) attitude to bikes: "The smog going over that hill would make biking without a mask fool-hearty. Bike lanes should be as far from autos as possible, maybe under ground". They don't have bike lanes next to freeways, and he reckoned the leisure rider gets scared from the sport riders whizzing by; as well as new gen people being online to the exclusion of cycling. I gained the impression that the streets are so filled with cars and the air with smog, that perhaps cycling isn't as much fun there as in Melbourne. It's been implied that not many people use ebikes in Australia, and it's true they're a niche market. However, there are 120mil ebikes and e-scotters in China, up from 60,000 in 1996. Perhaps the Australian client base have been put on the back foot waiting 2y for the more powerful proposed 250w EU ebikes.

To register an ebike, I can envisage needing turn blinkers, a horn, head/tail lights; wear an approved motorcycle helmet; annual registration/insurance fee, and motorcycle drivers license. You can buy a very cheap 250cc Chinese motorcycle in Melbourne, but you can't drive it on the road because it isn't compliant with some physical parameter or other. Eg a Yamaha is made to comply, and the Chinese unit isn't. Not sure where this would leave you with a 500w ebike at the road testing station. Hence, I earlier mentioned need for the proposed new Australian ebike (pedal assisted cycle, PAC))standard to have a concessional moped level class for ebikes that are >250w and faster than a pedalec's 25kmh cutout to motor. At 250w we're talking 0.35hp, you realise?! Phil Liggit commenting 2d ago on the Tour de France mentioned one cyclist puts out 1400w on steep hill climbs.

there are 120mil ebikes and e-scotters in China

According to wikipedia

This boom was triggered by Chinese local governments' efforts to restrict motorcycles in city centers to avoid traffic disruption and accidents. By late 2009 motorcycles are banned or restricted in over ninety major Chinese cities.[36] Users began replacing traditional bicycles and motorcycles and, in e-bike became an alternative to commuting by car.[1] Nevertheless, road safety concerns continue as around 2,500 electric bicycle related deaths were registered in 2007.[37] As of late 2009 ten cities have also banned or imposed restrictions on electric bicycles on the same grounds as motorcycles. Among these cities are Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Changsha, Foshan, Changzhou, and Dongguang.[36][37]

It seems electric bikers are ex cyclists and ex motor cyclists as opposed to ex car drivers. We don't have that many of them in Australia.
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby diggler » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:36 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Durace, I am not talking about power assisted bikes this time. I am thinking of 100& pedalled bikes that will shift and set the gears to a consistently efficient and least uncomfortable setting for a (non) rider who is put off by the complexity of shifting derailleurs.

With affordable and reliable processors and batteries that require minimal attention such as charging all the time I believe that it may be something on the horizon. Of course, it will require a demand but I sense from my own observations that the pool of who do not ride because of hesitation in confronting derailleur gearing.

It could be that is will appear first on e-bikes however.


the pool of who do not ride because of hesitation in confronting derailleur gearing

Really? I've driven a manual car which has a clutch. That is tricky for beginners. A bicycle has a lever to flick. I've never found that to be particularly difficult.

I've also never seen a survey that rated derailleur gearing as a major deterrent to cycling.
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Road safety data

Postby alan101 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:26 am

Diggler said, 'Nevertheless, road safety concerns continue as around 2,500 electric bicycle related deaths were registered in 2007 China'.

That death count is amongst 120mil ebike/escooter users in China today, and probably isn't far from America's fatality rate from car use. I was in China in 2010. A majority of cyclists and motorcyclists don't use headlights at night, on the basis they have street lighting to be seen by. Few people wore helmets, pedestrians wearing black in bike lanes or on the road at night. There's an awful lot they could do to reduce their road toll. I was shocked by the apparent apathy in personal cycle safety measures on the street. I did see some nice bike lanes in Shanghai, though, with wrought iron fence segregation from cars.

Nonetheless, the 2,500 electric cycle death figure was a shock to me when I heard it 6 mo ago. Until that, I hadn't heard of any fatalities related to ebikes. It's worth wearing a safety vest, helmet and gloves - the potential for injury can't be denied. The Chinese need to lift their game. Motorised personal transport for the masses is less than 2 decades old there. Also, e-scooters often get lumped in with ebikes conceptually in discussion, but are quite different. Possibly 350w motors with large SLA batteries under the scooter's floor plus body paneling, could take weight up to 40+kg. I'd go so far as to say that most (eg >90%) of e-2-wheelers in China are e-scooters; which are not ridden like bicycles and pedalled.

Chinese also can get quite arrogant when they're middle or upper class, the group that drives the 60 mil or so cars that China's produced for private consumption in the last few years. It's like bikes vs cars in Australia, but on steroids. And the entire cars and electric bikes/scooters thing is all just 10-15 years old, because just about everybody was getting around on bicycles in the late 1980s. And then we have urbanisation, where masses of agrarian types migrate to the swelling cities for work. Shanghai's 24mil population is bigger than that of Australia, and yet it was a minor fishing town 160 years ago. Public transport is a big mover of people in China.

From Wikipedia. 'China had over 96,000 deaths due to motor vehicle collisions in 2004. ... This makes motor vehicle collisions ...the sixth leading preventable cause of death in the United States (45,800 people died and 2.4 million were injured in 2005)'. China's population is 3-4 times that of USA. Given that ebikes travel slower than cars, the death rate in the US could probably be reduced significantly if ebikes were substituted for cars. We won't hold our breath for that one, though; given their love of smog and carbon pollution.

From 'Road Traffic Deaths Index 2009 Rankings'. URL: http://www.photius.com/rankings/road_tr ... _2009.html
Note that Germany and Netherlands are known ebike user countries, with road traffic death rates (per 100,000 pop) below Australia and USA.
Seeing Germany (6.0 deaths per 100,000 pop) and Netherlands (4.8) so low, I'd suggest that investment in bicycle infrastructure could be a factor; although the numbers are from all traffic causes, not cycling specific. Clearly, America's (13.9) love affair with the car has it's price. China (16.5) perhaps isn't bad, considering they're just emerging from being a predominantly peasant agrarian society 30 years ago, and have enormous infrastructure development needs.
Road traffic deaths 2009
Rate per 1000,000 pop Total deaths 2009
China 16.5 #96,611
USA 13.9 #42,642
Australia 7.8 #1,616
Germany 6.0 #4,949
Netherlands 4.8 #791
Last edited by alan101 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:53 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: proposed new law worse than the old

Postby Comedian » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:21 am

WOW. Not only are e-bikers too lazy to pedal but now they don't even want the effort of pushing a lever to change gears :shock: :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Pedaling and distance

Postby alan101 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:18 pm

Comedian said, 'Not only are e-bikers too lazy to pedal ...'.

I take it you've never ridden an ebike, with a comment like that. I certainly pedal my ebike, and would have about one-third of the 50km range if I didn't. With a 10Ah Li-ion battery costing about $A700, I'm not keen on replacing it annually due to excessive current drain, either. Although, excessive current drain and recharge battery-cycling is preferable to leaving it in a corner unused for 6 mo stretches.
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