I has a project

Vintage, yesteryear and retro biking

I has a project

Postby winona_rider » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:51 pm

Just picked this up today. My very first ebay purchase for $155...didn't really expect to win since every other time i had bid i had lost at the last minute.

Anyway. It's a malvern star 2 star roadster...but it's been set up like a track bike. It is actually really light. I was quite surprised. The plan is to turn this into a no fuss fixie...and if I hate the fixed experience, maybe a 1 speed free wheel?

Please forgive my ignorance but i would love to ask some questions....

This is it next to my current bike...the top tube is significantly longer but i expect this is probably my proper size - i'm 183cm but i think i have short arms....

Image

Image

How do you tighten the seat tube on this sort of frame? And the tube seems to be too small for modern seat tubes...

Paint: i'm thinking fiesta red - my favourite fender guitar colour (it's like a 50s red that's more on the orange side of the spectrum.)

I wanna have brakes at the front...will I have to drill the forks?

Image

what are those holes at the end of the front forks for?

Image

Image

it came with this "perry" rear wheel hub....
does anyone know anything about it?

and it came with a bunch of bits like these lights and brakes - they aren't in great condition - does anyone want them?

Image[/img]

Ok... rims...I really wanna put on modern rims, but I'm open to opinions...i know i can get new 27" rims... if i went for 700c rims what would i do aboutthe front forks (- them being too narrow...)

Image

Image

I'm not a big fan of the bars.
Plus I think the stem needs to be replaced...

thanks in advance!

d
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by BNA » Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:55 pm

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Postby stevendavid75 » Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:55 pm

Hi There,
thats a pretty nice looking frame there,
with regard to tightening the seat post into frame, the bolt on the seat stay/seat tube junction should be the ticket.

The holes on the fork ends would be there if you wanted to attach a guard.

With regard to drilling the front fork, I would suggest that you find a different fork already drilled as undrilled forks look more like real track forks (even if it isnt) and finding a 27' fork shouldnt be that hard to come across. BUT if you are going to paint the frame, have the other set of forks ready to go all at once, Personally I would leave the chrome fork chromed.

Look forward to seeing how it comes up!
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:09 pm

Hmmmm, it looks like it's time to learn something about my favorite subject. Bicycles.

The Perry hub is a coaster brake. These were first seen just before WW2 & were widely used for about four decades & many thousands would still be in use today. It could easily be original equipment for this frame.

The head stem might even be original, but the bars would have originally been rolled up for upright riding.

The frame itself has the chain stay tubing pressed together to form the rear lug. These were called 'Pressed Lug' frames & because of the low cost in manufacture, would normally be found on the lowest cost & most basic roadster models, which means that the frame angles are configured for a nice stable ride. This was the most popular & commonly seen frame design from the late 30's well into the 60's & many thousands of them are still around in sheds, back yards & in hard rubbish cleanups. They might have been basic, but were the backbone of the bicycle industry at the time & the mainstay of the worker who rode them to work, or to the train station in their tens of thousands all over Australia.

The extra holes at the rear lugs are for mudguard mounting, or for a rack.

The forks that came with this frame are not original. They are both newer & more upmarket.

The original seat pins were pretty much just that, a tubular pin. It had a reduced diameter at the top where the clamp for the saddle went & this was a standard size, but the main part of these pins [seat posts] differed for different frame sizes.
They were also numbered as per the British standard & the better the quality of the frame tube, then the thinner the wall section & the larger the diameter of the seatpin that was needed.
A No. 4 seatpin was 26.8mm in diameter while a No.3 was 26.4mm [from memory] I have not seen many No.2 seatpins but they would have been used on the low end offerings like utility bikes & some basic roadsters.
You tighten the seat tube by tightening the nut & bolt on the picture.

The seatpin for this bike would indeed seem smaller than you are accustomed to as it was made of proper steel & not some flimsy fatigue prone material that needs large diameters & a torque wrench to do up as is commonly seen today. With real steel, you just put a spanner on the nut, give it a heave & she's done.

This frame would very likely have originally been made for 28" wheels & probably came with the flat sided Endrik rims by the time this one was new with 28x1-3/8 tyres, so be aware that if this is true, then with 27" rims you will probably have plenty of clearance in the frame. The forks are probably for a 27" wheel, so it will be a nicer more snug fit.

Back when it was new, this frame would have been fitted with either a fixed wheel hub, a single speed freewheel & one brake, a coaster brake, or for those with some money to spend, possibly a Sturmey Archer 3 speed [AW] hub & one brake, although this seems unlikely as they were fairly expensive at the time & couldn't really be justified on a basic pressed lug roadster bike.

There's a 2 Star frame on eBay just now & this looks to have been the DeLuxe roadster model as it has brazed-in rear lugs & brazed-on seat stays. I suspect that this one may have been made for 27" wheels as it is VERY similar to my 2 Star roadster which uses 27's. This one has it's original forks too which is uncommon & these are already drilled for a brake.
It is VERY reasonably priced at the moment too.

Image
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Postby GaryF » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:12 am

Congratulations, I think it will make a great single speed to ride to the coffee shop on.

The fender colour would be interesting as well. I think the top bars on the older roadsters were a bit longer than the seat tubes and tha stems were a bit shorter like yours. Personally, I don't really like the stem/bar combination either.

I really liked Kid Carbine's explanation - very informative.

have fun,

Gary.
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Postby oldtimer » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:38 am

winona_rider

It looks like you have all the information you need. My son is restoring a 2 star and the original colour was orange. The new paint is IgnitionOrange which is an option on the new ss_commodore. The bike will be on a new thread but as you are looking at colours, this is how it turned out.
Image

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Postby europa » Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:57 am

Buying new forks isn't a problem - my lbs has quite a selection for about $30.

Before buying wheels, get your brakes and check out the reach you have available. I'd hate to see you buy new 700c wheels and then find you can't get brakes to reach.

Should be good bike when finished. Have fun.

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Postby Kid_Carbine » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:53 am

Image

This is the DeLuxe roadster frame as best I can tell & has brazed-in rear fork tips & brazed-on seat stays. It would be almost identical to the one on eBay. [there is a cosmetic difference on the fork crowns]
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Postby winona_rider » Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:32 pm

oldtimer wrote:winona_rider

It looks like you have all the information you need. My son is restoring a 2 star and the original colour was orange. The new paint is IgnitionOrange which is an option on the new ss_commodore. The bike will be on a new thread but as you are looking at colours, this is how it turned out.
Image

oldtimer


looks great!

yeah - i am gonna stick with this frame. it's just an experiment...and i may not do it justice, but when the dust has settled it will still mean something to me...well hopefully!
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Postby ukalipt » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:34 pm

nice winona.
it's funny to see all the what i would say "interesting" bikes or ones i would definitely consider buying, going mainly to people in the forums.
good luck with the project and keep us up-to-date with the goings on.

kid - you are a freak [in the nicest way!]
thank you for the free edumactation.

just a suggestion/thought
it would be awesome to see all the dyno lights back up and running on the frame. that back light is pretty cool!
i like to pedal
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:01 pm

Ukalipt
Thanks [I think] What you might see as 'great knowlege' is really nothing of the sort. It's just what I learned about the bikes I grew up with, .. in the same way that the younger forumites are learning about the bikes [& anything else for that matter] that they are growing up with.

In 30 or 40 years time these people will be looked upon in awe by their grandchildren as all knowing guru's-on-the-mount for their knowledge of early turn-of-the-century things. [like laughably obsolete plasma TV's in the prehistoric pre-Hi Definition era]

Older bikes aren't rocket science, more like, well, biplane science. Ya gotta think low tech.
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Postby winona_rider » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:36 pm

just bought some bars and a stem and some forks off ebay...
they weren't expensive, but not cheap either...
god...i hope they fit!

':oops:'
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Postby winona_rider » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:36 pm

update!
1) wheels purchased - velocity deep V track in silver.
2) crankset, BB, headset and pedals ordered from Alien bikes (thanks ukalipt)
3) a 17 and 18 tooth sprocket and an 18 tooth freewheel sprocket from ebay store "wheelandsprocket" (prepared to go to 16 if 17 is too "easy")
4) new forks, nitto stem and bar (all chrome) on way from ben's bikes in happy days country

all that is left is brake hoods (thinking tektro campy clones from velo orange) and brakes.
will leave this till last to see if i need overreach brakes.
but i don't think i'll need them cause it's a modern chrome threaded fork designed for 700cc rims.
(am i right?)

Chain - bikepro in melbourne seems to have a decent range...

and lastly - a seatpost (already have a saddle from my trek)
i am having trouble locating a chrome seatpost that is under 27mm...
as far as i can tell - the post i need is 26.2....
does anyone know where you can get that size new or in reasonable secondhand condition?


one more thing - i would love white brake hoods but no one seems to make them new anymore.... :(
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Postby winona_rider » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:38 pm

ps...hapz valentines day y'all!
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Postby Mulger bill » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:25 pm

winona_rider wrote:...one more thing - i would love white brake hoods but no one seems to make them new anymore.... :(


Old Shamino something levers with white hoods...
Image

Interested?, shoot me a PM...

Shaun
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:31 pm

winona_rider wrote:update!
1) wheels purchased - velocity deep V track in silver.
2) crankset, BB, headset and pedals ordered from Alien bikes (thanks ukalipt)
What kind of headset did you order?
The original on your frame would have been the older 'English' type that was standard fare untill about 1957 when the Continental headset was first seen on high end production bikes. It was slowly phased out on the less expensive models, but Speedwell 'Popular' roadsters were still using it in the 60's & possibly even the early 70's.
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Postby winona_rider » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:48 pm

Kid_Carbine wrote:
winona_rider wrote:update!
1) wheels purchased - velocity deep V track in silver.
2) crankset, BB, headset and pedals ordered from Alien bikes (thanks ukalipt)
What kind of headset did you order?
The original on your frame would have been the older 'English' type that was standard fare untill about 1957 when the Continental headset was first seen on high end production bikes. It was slowly phased out on the less expensive models, but Speedwell 'Popular' roadsters were still using it in the 60's & possibly even the early 70's.



it was this one:

alien gear

if it doesn't suit it is no biggie...it was only 14 bucks. i still have the headset that came with the bike.
if it is wrong - what should i get kid C?
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 pm

It's very hard to tell from your pictures, but the lower headlug looks unmodified & the top one is probably unmodified too, so if I am correct, it would need the original 'English' headset.
These use a cup [top & bottom] with a ball shape where they fit into the frame [self aligning] & use 30 tiny 1/8" balls [3.175mm] top & bottom.

The two headsets in your link are 'Continental' types.

If your replacement does prove to be the wrong one, go to the oldest bike shop you can find & ask for a replacement 'per sample' You never know, they may have a replacement in stock, or be able to build one from new parts. Those of us who have these older models have this drama all the time.
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Postby ukalipt » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:43 pm

nice winona. sounds like is well an truely underway.

i think you should be right with short reach, as you said the forks are designed for 700c. i think long reach are needed when the 27' rim is replaced with a 700c

white hoods can be found here. not cheap but they are NOS

seat posts....
full bling here
mulger - do you have any left?

once built the trek propably wont get a ride for a while!
i like to pedal
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Postby Mulger bill » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:17 pm

I've found two 26.2 seatposts, nothing flash...
Image
The red marks are insertion lines.

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Postby kukamunga » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:22 pm

Shaun. Have you posted any more pics of stuff you're trying to sell lately? Tony.
God save the ABC & SBS.....
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Postby Mulger bill » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:36 pm

Not lately Tony, I'll be off me arse soon..ish.

Shaun
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Postby winona_rider » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:59 pm

can i have the top one please???
:)
i need a decent length in the tube - probably 20cm at least - i would love a more sculptured one - but i can't be fussy...
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Postby Mulger bill » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:12 pm

winona_rider wrote:can i have the top one please???
:)
i need a decent length in the tube - probably 20cm at least - i would love a more sculptured one - but i can't be fussy...


No worries :) PM soon.

Shaun
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Postby winona_rider » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:06 pm

update!

the forks, stem and bars arrived today.

HEADSET:
Kid Carb - yep the modern(ish) headsets don't fit. (just a smidgen too big)
I'd anticipated this and tried to source the tiny 1/8" ball bearings at bicycle revolution (no luck) and the LBS (no luck but they ordered it for me)
is it my understanding that the old school way of doing this was that the frame of the bike actually acted as quasi-cups for the races?
this means there are just four pieces to my headset. a race that goes around the fork at the bottom, a top race and a top cup, and finally a ring that kinda acts as a tightener/binder (?)....

so i had a chance to examine my old-school headset and it looks good, chrome is almost perfect, but i think the bottom race is a tiny bit bent (or the cup in the frame is). we shall see.

FORKS:
as someone pointed out (KC or singletracking, soz i can't remember) - yep the thread at the top of the new forks is WAY too long....maybe 40 mm.

So my question is - how much thread should you leave after cutting? I feel i should know this cause it seems my LBS mechanics don't seem to be that cluey about OLD, OLD bikes. There is only one bike store in Brisbane (i think) that looks like a store that Europa once described - lots of clutter, old stuff everywhere and just a general sense of chaos (in maybe a good way) and that store is ridgeways at Stafford. even though this is by far not my LBS, i think i'll take the bike there to get the bits i can't do myself done...
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Postby oldtimer » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:09 pm

winona_rider

This is the head set on my son's 2 star, with the ball bearings installed and the top nut screwed off so the thread can be seen.
We didn't need to cut the forks, so the amount of thread is probably as it was originally built. The amount of thread on the fork tube should be enough for the top chrome nut to screw down with a full thread.
Image
If you screw the top bearing "shell" down the thread past where the cut will be, before you cut the fork tube, it will "chase" the thread as you unscrew it. The chromed head pieces should go back on the thread OK when you re assemble it.
I suggest that you get some other opinions before you do anything too drastic.

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