What is the point of the motor assistance?

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Only a controller limits speed?

Postby alan101 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:51 pm

[quote="Hangdog98"] said, "I think you'll also find that the rated power of the standard 500W and 1000W motors on offer differ only by the sticker that conveniently matches the maximum output of the country they're meant to be sold in. Again, the power output is regulated by the controller, not the motor ...".
(late amendment x Alan. 'Joe' removed in line 1. I didn't insert 'Joe', it just appeared as part of the quote. ??)

I think Hangdog may be wrong in his assumption that the controller is governing motor output completely. I recently took a 250w ebike motor to my ebike shop in Melbourne, wanting a throttle controller to replace the (crap) pedalec controller Bafang dumped on me when I picked up an ebike kit order in Suzhou, China. My local ebike shop mechanic bench tested the 250w and 200w motors (both Bafang and 36v) in a fork held in a bench vice, using my early 200w rig's 15A throttle controller and 10Ah Li-ion battery; in common to both wheel tests. The 250w motor, designed as a pedalec EU 250w/25kmh unit, ran at 27kmh (no load) and the 200w at 28kmh. On the road, the 200w seems to manage 4-6kmh better top speed than the 250w, just my impression. The factory supplied dyno chart for this 250w motor shows a 10.4A max power drain, and the controller used for this test is 15A; which the mechanic pointed out is not therefore limiting either motor's capability. To conclude, the max speed is governed by the design of motor, controller and battery working together. The revelation to me is that the motor won't go much over it's designed 25kmh max, purely due to how it's designed. A 20A controller was mentioned as possibly giving more speed, but the mechanic said this would only be inefficient and generate extra heat, not speed. Efficiency is key for range, as we know.

So I'm stuck with a 250w EU compliant motor and wheel build costing me around $A400, that pisses me off because it's slower than my original 3y old 200w setup. The 200w rig is going back on the bike, once I sort out another bike I'm up-speccing to Shimano XT drivetrain. The lesson here is that swapping controllers is not a magic bullet for the tight-ass EU 250w/25kmh standard. My legal 200w Jamis Coda Sport 27spd ebike manages approx 32kmh max cruising speed flat/calm pedal-assisted. Way better than the 26.5kmh the 250w motor allows. The 250w motor may also give a lower range, as it's taking more power; although I haven't done a max range ride to test this.

The proposed 250w/25kmh national standard is probably here as a reaction to NSW trying to prosecute 'ebikes' a couple of years ago, given NSW RTA dreamed it up. Ebikes don't seem to rate as much of a concern elsewhere around the country. The 25kmh speed limiting is a heavy handed over-reaction by bureaucrats who apparently understand neither ebikes nor climate change. Of course, a few nimby orthodox cyclists love to endorse it so only they can potter on bike paths, in the same way some pedestrian groups want to see the end of cycling on their footpaths. Common sense and respect for others would do better than legislation designed by the ignorant. I could ride my road bike at 38.5kmh for 1km today, so where did they pluck 25kmh max for ebikes from?! Perhaps it's related to the policy makers never talking to existing Australian ebike manufacturers/retailers nor ebikers. Numbnuts!

To address this thread's 'What is the point of the motor assistance?'. Of course, it's to level out the hills and neutralise the headwinds, let me travel 35km to arrive fresh and non-perspiring, after a decent workout. It also helps that an ebike moves a person about using 1% of the caloric energy in fuel that it takes with a car.
Last edited by alan101 on Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by BNA » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:59 pm

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Re: Only a controller limits speed?

Postby Joeblake » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:59 pm

alan101 wrote:
Hangdog98 wrote:Joe said, "I think you'll also find that the rated power of the standard 500W and 1000W motors on offer differ only by the sticker that conveniently matches the maximum output of the country they're meant to be sold in. Again, the power output is regulated by the controller, not the motor ...".




I did NOT say that. Try reading the posts for a change.

What I said was

Hangdog98 wrote:
[I think you'll also find that the rated power of the standard 500W and 1000W motors on offer differ only by the sticker that conveniently matches the maximum output of the country they're meant to be sold in.



I think you'll find there's a lot more involved than you realise, but if you wish to believe that, I won't try to disillusion you.


Joe



Joe
Oh, and PS, Hangdog98 didn't write "Joe said" either. You've managed to misquote two people in the one post.

Joe
Last edited by Joeblake on Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Only a controller limits speed?

Postby Joeblake » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:03 pm

alan101 wrote:To address this thread's 'What is the point of the motor assistance?'. Of course, it's to level out the hills and neutralise the headwinds, let me travel 35km to arrive fresh and non-perspiring, after a decent workout.


I thought the whole point of a "decent workout" was to work ... in other words perspire. How does a motor help you get a "non-perspiring ... decent workout?"

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Re: Only a controller limits speed?

Postby David_G » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:36 pm

Joeblake wrote:
alan101 wrote:To address this thread's 'What is the point of the motor assistance?'. Of course, it's to level out the hills and neutralise the headwinds, let me travel 35km to arrive fresh and non-perspiring, after a decent workout.


I thought the whole point of a "decent workout" was to work ... in other words perspire. How does a motor help you get a "non-perspiring ... decent workout?"

Joe



I think ebikes would be great for a longer commute to work. Of course you would arrive in a state that you didn't need a shower and you could wear your work clothes and not need t change. I also think ebikes could easily fit into the existing bike infrastructure, if it got a bit crowded, maybe the A Jones and his screaming heeby jeebies might settle down a bit, Although I doubt that.
I'm sure you'd get a bit of a work out too, but maybe to a lesser degree than on a roadie.

More people on bikes has got to be a good thing, who gives a toss about their reason? If they get on a bike it's a good result.

If ebikes ended up being faster than the average human powered bikes then the ebikers will just have to show the same sense of personal responsibility as other road users and only go a fast as is safe, which is the situation we have now!
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:48 pm

I am starting to notice quite a few more on the roads here...even in group rides.Not my group rides but the more social cyclotourist groups I see often out and about.Also a lot of ladies use them to go out riding with their stronger cycling husbands (might happen the other way round but I haven't seen it).
Not sure of the exact laws here but kids seem to start riding motorbikes up to 125cc at about the age of 14...they don't have registration plates on them so I expect electric bicycles are not going to be restricted any day soon.
Last year I came upon an ebike on a big climb (when I was fit!) and once he knew I was there he tried to drop me...took a while but eventually I exploded.But he seemed to be speed restricted or more likely didn't have a very high top speed as I caught him back on the flats...if they can hold 50kmph happily then they would be great for motor pacing :D .
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby alan101 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:40 pm

Joe asked, 'I thought the whole point of a "decent workout" was to work ... in other words perspire. How does a motor help you get a "non-perspiring ... decent workout?"'

Perhaps my rig having 1 less wheel than Joe's and being 14kg lighter doesn't cause me to raise as much of a sweat. Traveling 34km in 1'15" isn't done without cranking hard, so there's definitely a workout involved and perhaps a bit of sweat. Alan
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:02 pm

alan101 wrote:Perhaps my rig having 1 less wheel than Joe's and being 14kg lighter doesn't cause me to raise as much of a sweat. Traveling 34km in 1'15" isn't done without cranking hard, so there's definitely a workout involved and perhaps a bit of sweat. Alan


Again, you wander off into the realm of irrelevancy. It's not a matter of whether I raise as much of a sweat or not. You're the one who wants to get a "non-perspiring workout". :lol: :lol:

And you still haven't explained how a motor helps give you a "decent workout". If you're "cranking hard" why do you need any assistance?
:lol:
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Re: Only a controller limits speed?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:27 pm

David_G wrote:More people on bikes has got to be a good thing, who gives a toss about their reason? If they get on a bike it's a good result.


I support ebikes. I have mentioned sevreal times indeed that if I could get my wife on one I would gladly do so. Though I do not have your optimism with regard to sensible riding prevailing and so I will have issues with anything that allows all people to achieve higher speeds than the prevailing speed of "average" riders.

I would certainly like to be able to arrive somewhere without the need to shower and change clothes every time.

On another point, there is too much argument, imho, that e-Bike riders do not do enough work or have not paid some "dues" that others believe they have done to seem a little elitist. I can think of many reasons to ride an ebike. And some that would justify an ebike over a regular bike.
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Re: Only a controller limits speed?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:29 pm

Joeblake wrote:
alan101 wrote:To address this thread's 'What is the point of the motor assistance?'. Of course, it's to level out the hills and neutralise the headwinds, let me travel 35km to arrive fresh and non-perspiring, after a decent workout.


I thought the whole point of a "decent workout" was to work ... in other words perspire. How does a motor help you get a "non-perspiring ... decent workout?"

Joe


Agreed. A weird argument methinks. Less sedentary than driving a car but hardly a workout. Indeed, in the cbd with distant parking even a driver could claim a workout on a standard that is "arriving" fresh and cool.
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Keith Dunstan's ebike uptake

Postby alan101 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:50 am

God there are some pedantic old sods on this thread, with little imagination and buckets of judgement to dispense. Still - bit of spark. Moving on, a 75y ebiker from Sorrento (Vic) sent me this article (unsourced). One man's reason for motor assistance.

Dunstan became a trailblazer for two-wheelers. He approached then sports minister Brian Dixon about setting up a Bicycle Institute of Victoria, then became its first president. He went to see Alan Croxford, boss at the old Board of Works, about bike lanes but had less success. ''The bloody things should be banned from the roads,'' snarled Croxford. Undeterred, Dunstan wrote about the glories of bicycling as often as he could. He rode thousands of kilometres across the US, thousands more at home. Decades passed and Dunstan kept pedalling - but times were a-changing. ''In my 50s,'' he says, ''smart young girls in tight pants were having no trouble passing me on the Yarra Boulevard. In my 60s, small boys would whizz by on little bikes. In my 70s it was no longer a contest - girls in brilliant Spandex were rocketing past with the speed of light.''

Then cyclist Dunstan hit his 80s and - in a warning to the army of Lycra-clad pedal-pushers out there - he has had his moment of truth. ''A group of us were on the Lilydale-Warburton trail,'' he says, ''and little Mount Evelyn was looking like Mount Kosciuszko. I reached the top but the next day my knees were creaking like rusty chain. They were so bad I couldn't ride for three months.''
So the unthinkable has happened. At age 85, this hardy pioneer of Melbourne cycling has sold out. ''I have bought an electric bicycle,'' he says. ''It's a terrible confession. Until now I had nothing but contempt for those things.''

Mind you, it took a couple of days to win him over. He found a seductive silver beast at a cycle shop, powered by a lithium battery. ''It had a range of 50 kilometres, cruising speed of 25 km/h and the salesmen said 50 million Chinese were riding bikes just like it.'' Dunstan's resistance finally snapped when he took it for a test ride and sailed up Wheeler's Hill at 20 km/h. ''A mysterious force took over,'' he reports. ''There was a whirring noise from the motor - which is incredibly small - and I began to sail.''

Now Dunstan is an advocate for powered cycling. ''It folds in 40 seconds and can be slipped into a car boot. And on a warm day you can arrive at your destination smelling like a rose.'' Actually, that raises a question: what happened when he pedalled to work all those years ago? Was there a shower and change of clothes, a la office cyclists of today? ''No,'' confesses Dunstan. ''People just sat a little bit further away.''
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Re: Keith Dunstan's ebike uptake

Postby Joeblake » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:56 am

alan101 wrote:God there are some pedantic old sods on this thread ...


You inspire it in many people.

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Averageness a goal?

Postby alan101 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:00 pm

[quote="ColinOldnCranky"] said, ' I will have issues with anything that allows all people to achieve higher speeds than the prevailing speed of "average" riders'.

Wow, that actually excludes the 50% of riders who go above average speed to counter-balance the 50% riding below average. So I guess road bikes and anything under about 20kg is out then?

Not much of a recipe for an exciting life or excellence. Cadel was lucky you weren't his coach. I doubt that Shimano, SRAM or Campagnalo will be hiring you for any advertising campaigns in the near future. Beach Rd (Melb) on the weekend holds little for you.
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Re: Averageness a goal?

Postby Joeblake » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:14 pm

alan101 wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote: said, ' I will have issues with anything that allows all people to achieve higher speeds than the prevailing speed of "average" riders'.

Not much of a recipe for an exciting life or excellence. Cadel was lucky you weren't his coach. I doubt that Shimano, SRAM or Campagnalo will be hiring you for any advertising campaigns in the near future. Beach Rd (Melb) on the weekend holds little for you.


But a great recipe for mayhem, to wit in Perth on 11 August a 15 car crash on a freeway caused by a person travelling at
higher speeds than the prevailing speed of "average" riders'
(Read "drivers").

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/ca ... 6112896530

How is that excellent?

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby alan101 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:51 pm

Joe, that was a car accident with a person cited as doing about 150kmh. I've been talking about bikes and 250w ebikes, so don't understand why you're quoting me and mentioning a 150kmh car crash. A speed unlimited 250w ebike would manage around 38kmh max pedal-assisted flat/calm, with its weight and wind resistance >30kmh limiting its speed. I do 38kmh every weekend on my (unassisted) road bike, and I'm not in the fast group.

Doing 100kmh on an urban freeway is well above average; due to all the congestion, road works, etc that generally keep speeds well down from the maximum limit during commutes.

The Vic Auditor Generals report on bike policy found that 45 mins was something of a maximum time for bike commuters. If you can ebike at 30kmh, compared with 'normal cyclists' doing say 15kmh, then potentially you double the geographic catchment of possible cyclists, I submit. You stand to get more people biking to work or play. Calculating speed requires the use of time, and it's with time efficiency that an ebike can provide benefit. The safest speed strategy is to stay in bed, although there's probably medical conditions that emanate from such an approach.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:06 pm

alan101 wrote:Joe, that was a car accident with a person cited as doing about 150kmh.

Doing 100kmh on an urban freeway is well above average; due to all the congestion, road works, etc that generally keep speeds well down from the maximum limit during commutes.



It wasn't an "accident". It was a crash caused by one driver travelling at higher speed than the prevailing speed of the other drivers. Sheer stupidity.

As for "Doing 100kmh on an urban freeway is well above average" ...???? WT?? That's the speed limit on that section of the freeway. But even if "congestion, road works etc" DID keep the speed down to (say) 60 km/h, and this doofus was driving at 80 km/h, it's STILL a recipe for mayhem.

If you read Colin's post (and my quote from it) there is NO reference to "average speed". He wrote about "average rider".

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:21 am

@Alan101

I don't know if you are aware of it, but this bulletin board has the facility for displaying time and date when a posting is amended, to prevent (or at least highlight) retrospective alterations to a post. This function seems to come into play after the particular thread has been accessed by another person.

I've no difficulty with somebody making an alteration to their post, I've done it myself, to correct a minor spelling error, or alter grammar. I've sometimes done this several months after the initial posting. On this page, I've made an amendment to one of my posts, but in the text I've made a note of a PS - post script.

However, just looking simply at this one page, page 5, of this thread, I can see you have retrospectively altered several of your posts AFTER I commented on them, and not simply making grammatical or spelling changes.

On 18 August at 11:51 hrs, in the first post on this page, you incorrectly attributed a quote to myself and another member. At 13:59 hours I posted a comment on this matter, including a cut and paste from your original post, containing the text which I was concerned with. One then examines your original post and at the bottom it can be seen that it has been amended (by you) at 16:15 hours.

Since you were unable to amend my own post containing the quote from your original post, it can be seen what changes you have made. You've removed this misattribution. However, you've not noted anywhere that you have done so.

Secondly, on 19 August, at 10:00 hrs, you posted in respect of a previous posting by another member. At 10:14 I replied to this post, including a cut from your original post. At 15:38 hrs it would seem you have amended your post for a second time, adding the second paragraph concerning "average speed", which alters the meaning of your post considerably.

Then at 15:51 hrs you made a further posting which I replied to at 16:06 hrs, including a cut from your original posting. At 19:32 hrs you amended your original posting. Whilst I didn't cut and paste the entirety of your post, I do believe that what changes are shown when comparing my cut and paste to your amended post pretty accurately reflect the changes which you made.

I'm not even going to refer to alterations you've made on other pages or in other threads, because I haven't looked for them.

Alan101, if you wish to debate topics, please do so in an honest and open manner, rather than sneaking in trying to alter things retrospectively to suit yourself. Not only does this make it difficult to follow the progress of the debate, it does your own credibility no good whatsoever.

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Comedian » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:13 pm

So I don't see what the problem is with the speed cutout? I mean it only means that the motor assist cuts out at 25kph. The owners of the ebikes can pedal past this speed and sit on 35 like anyone else. That means they can go just as fast on the flat, faster downhill, and faster up hill. Plus, it stops people using them as powered motorbikes. I think it's seriously inspired legislation. Plus it makes us compatible with europe. :)
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby cachexian » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:28 pm

Hi Comedian et al,

(edited)
I agree and think that 25k speed cut out would be fine in a lot of circumstances. It will just encourage types of ebike that are not much heavier than a non-assisted bike. It will also discourage direct drive systems that have regenerative braking potential and therefore some drag to pedalling above the assisted speed.

One disadvantage is that I think it will be less likely to encourage people out of their cars and onto bikes. The difference between car and ebike commute times with the 25kph limit would be greater than it would be with the old 200w ungoverned system. I imagine that that difference would be quite significant. Obviously, Alan101 and I agree on this point from our experiences with EVS non-speed limited 200W systems.

But I admit that I've not ridden one of the 250W pedalecs so I can't really compare.

Also, new entrants into the market after the new legislation is introduced will not know what it was like before with the 200W systems so they will probably not be disappointed.

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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:45 pm

I saw a couple of motorized mtb's on my ride today....I did a loop of 62kms with 2000m of climbing and they must have been on the shorter loops.
We are talking the big rear hub powered systems with giant batteries...I am not sure what those things weigh but they cant be much fun once the battery starts to fade :lol: .
This wasn't a fire trail ride...it was very hilly loops with lots of single track...quite often muddy and river crossings...not sure how water proof those babies are.
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Re: Only a controller limits speed?

Postby cachexian » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:05 pm

alan101 wrote:I recently took a 250w ebike motor to my ebike shop in Melbourne, wanting a throttle controller to replace the (crap) pedalec controller Bafang dumped on me when I picked up an ebike kit order in Suzhou, China. My local ebike shop mechanic bench tested the 250w and 200w motors (both Bafang and 36v) in a fork held in a bench vice, using my early 200w rig's 15A throttle controller and 10Ah Li-ion battery; in common to both wheel tests. The 250w motor, designed as a pedalec EU 250w/25kmh unit, ran at 27kmh (no load) and the 200w at 28kmh. On the road, the 200w seems to manage 4-6kmh better top speed than the 250w, just my impression. The factory supplied dyno chart for this 250w motor shows a 10.4A max power drain, and the controller used for this test is 15A; which the mechanic pointed out is not therefore limiting either motor's capability. To conclude, the max speed is governed by the design of motor, controller and battery working together. The revelation to me is that the motor won't go much over it's designed 25kmh max, purely due to how it's designed. A 20A controller was mentioned as possibly giving more speed, but the mechanic said this would only be inefficient and generate extra heat, not speed. Efficiency is key for range, as we know.


Alan101,

I've been thinking about your bench test of the 200w vs 250w motor.

I've still got a lot to learn about brushless motors and controllers but I suspect that your mistake with that test was using the same controller to power both motors. The 250W controller would be designed to supply greater amps or volts to the motor when compared to the 200W controller.

It's not the motor rating per se that determines the speed of rotation. It's the motor's copper wire windings.

The motor winding will determine the speed of rotation and the maximum torque at stall with speed being inversely proportional to speed. The correct winding of the motor would then be mated to the correct controller and wheel size to achieve a desired power and speed. - So presumably the 250w motor is wound to rotate slightly slower when supplied with a specific power input. But there's no reason that it couldn't be rated differently. The power rating of the system is determined by the voltage of the battery and the amps supplied by the controller. Increase volts or amps to the 250W motor it will rotate faster. The 250W motor is so rated because it will be able to tolerate a greater amperage than the 200W motor before the insulation resin on the copper windings melts.

If I'm wrong, would any electronics gurus be able to correct me?

So, repeat a different bench test with both motors:
increase voltage and amps supplied to each motor At any given power, the 250w one will probably rotate slower than the 200w one until the 200w one melts then the 250w one will be faster :D
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:36 pm

There are many factors involved in the "speed" and "power" of an electric motor, including (as you pointed out) the size of the wire itself and the controller. There is also the internal gearing of the motor.

But bench testing a motor is not going to give you much useable data, since another factor to be considered is how the motor is used. The difference of mounting. A hub motor driving the wheel directly, can be mounted (as in my own case) in different sized wheels (16" as opposed to 26") which then gives (with the same motor) different speeds and climbing ability. However, if you mount the motor in such a way that its output goes through the drive train, then that will give a completely different performance picture.

The concept of "top speed" is very misleading, since it will be varied on the road by numerous factors. A much more realistic (and useful) figure is the "average" speed over a long distance. This of course requires that the motor be actually installed and ridden on a bicycle. As I've mentioned previously, my two trikes have differing performances in that regard. My "smaller" trike, ie with the 16" wheel, has, over the last week or so returned an average speed of 17.2 km/h, which includes some pretty steep hill climbing. However, the maximum speed of the motor in this configuration is only 16.6 km/h (unassisted by me). The 26" wheel returns a slightly higher speed over the same type of terrain, but the motor maxes out at about 24 km/h. But if it wasn't for the hill climbing, I think the average speed would be MUCH higher, probably about 2-3 km/h quicker, which, when taken over a long distance, means I would get from point A to point B in a shorter time. So the terrain is also a governing factor.

My big trike is currently being upgraded, and won't be back on the road for a few weeks, but when it's returns, I'm planning to do some fairly lengthy rides so I can get some up to date figures for you.

Joe
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Hangdog98 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:40 am

I am baffled by the desire of so many contributors to the electric bike governance discussions to limit the performance of electric assist bicycles. Maximum speed cutouts, pedalelec restrictions, maximum power etc etc. On the weekend my mate and I went out for an 80km spin on our leg-powered bikes and on the flats we cruised for ages at 50kph with the slight down hill sections allowing 65kph. We got caught and passed by other riders throughout the journey who were faster. Nobody that I saw had an electric motor. We didn't zoom past anyone doing 25kph. Nobody was killed by me or any other speedy cyclists. What is this obsession with restricting the speed of other cyclists?

The speed limit on the cycleways should be at least 50kph, the speed limits on roadways are already established. If Joe Bloggs wants to ride to work on an electric vehicle, and there is a million reasons why this is better than Joe Bloggs driving his Ford Speculum SUV, we should let the nice man ride his bloody electric bike to work. If he breaks a realistic arbitrary speed limit then book him. The only place he is going to pass me is uphill and that's fine by me. If he was in his car he'd still pass me, but with a lot more smoke, congestion, weight and danger for all concerned. Let the nice man ride his bloody electric bike to work. Seriously, more people died last year from masturbation misadventures than electric bike accidents and that hasn't deterred anyone from pursuing Australia's favourite indoor sport.

How on earth is anyone going to be coaxed out of their Holden Smegma 7 seater people mover with all this nonsense and regulation. Piddly electric bikes have been available for decades now and the cycleways are still empty. There needs to be a change and the solution is lightweight single person electric vehicles under $2000 which are able to use the seperated paths away from the Toyota Urban Assault Troop carriers, and compete with the other forms of transport.

I sometimes wonder if this is all about keeping the cycleways for the Hi Vis vest and pannier brigade at the exclusion of all others.

Ruth was stopped on her way to work by the cycleway patrol for travelling at 3kph over the 25kph limit.
Now she must pay a $200 fine and sit through 20 hours of bike lane courtesy documentaries before the Cycle-Stasi return her cycling licence and bicycle registration.
Bert, pictured left, was fired for not wearing a helmet whilst on a cycleway and for endangering the health budget with reckless unsafetyness in a place not set aside.
Image
Ruth sold her bike on eBay and bought the new Hyundai Santorum V6 with satnav and ipod connectivity instead.

<end /sarcasm tag>


You own a bicycle, not the cycleway.
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:12 am

Hangdog98 wrote:I sometimes wonder if this is all about keeping the cycleways for the Hi Vis vest and pannier brigade at the exclusion of all others.

You own a bicycle, not the cycleway.


And supposing you get your wish and the population of e-bikes grows staggeringly? What then?

Image

It seems to me that either:

There will be such a crowd of bikes on the cycleways that the average speed will be governed more by the speed of slower riders than the power of the motor, increasing commuting times rather than reducing them;

or

In an effort to avoid the congestion e-bikes will move en masse onto the road where, with this increase in numbers, they will become a hazard to themselves and other road users, with inadequate brakes, tyres, acceleration and power to move smoothly with other traffic, plus having to rely more on the motor, this will reduce their range, which will necessitate bigger batteries, more powerful motors, more efficient brakes etc ... in other words electric motorcycles.

To me it would seem more sensible to put the proposed limits in place until there is the infrastructure which will handle your desired population increase, which, as long as cars are around, is unlikely.



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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby jet-ski » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:56 am

Joeblake wrote:In an effort to avoid the congestion e-bikes will move en masse onto the road where, with this increase in numbers, they will become a hazard to themselves and other road users, with inadequate brakes, tyres, acceleration and power to move smoothly with other traffic, plus having to rely more on the motor, this will reduce their range, which will necessitate bigger batteries, more powerful motors, more efficient brakes etc ... in other words electric motorcycles.


Joeblake - I would love to see electric motorbikes become the vehicle of choice on the road though! Unfortunately people don't ride motorcycles on the road for the same reason they don't ride bicycles on the road - they are scared of inattentive car drivers who may hit and kill or cripple them!
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Re: What is the point of the motor assistance?

Postby Joeblake » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:04 pm

As much as I love my BMW, when a "good" e-motorcycle comes onto the market, I'll be trading up. :lol:

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