Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Re: I just edited the title of this post

Postby Joeblake » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:36 pm

alan101 wrote:I edit my content to support a theme, which is dominantly 200-250w ebikes and related legislation in this thread. I must have made one or more points today that Joe disagrees with, again; boosting my status to despicable. The moderator acknowledges 48 hrs from posting when edits are allowed. And you thought the edit button was there because __?
(emphasis added)

Again, you misquote. If you read my posts, the word(s) "despicable" and "dishonest" were not describing you, but rather what you did.

How will you amend your post now?

Joe
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

by BNA » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:42 pm

BNA
 

Failed 250w experiement

Postby alan101 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:42 pm

Joe said, "Stay with 200 watts. Your "failed experiment" sounds like you didn't do your homework before rushing in".

Like I said, the 200w wheel is going back on my ebike. I've been ebiking for 3 years, so 'rushing in' may not be correct. Getting sold a 250w EU motor hub by a Bafang rep, when that is exactly what I stated was not what I wanted (in 10 days of email motor specification exchange) was a mistake; but then it was handed to me about 5pm on a Friday afternoon in Suzhou and we had an itinerary elsewhere.

The experiment, in part, incorporated my ebike shop bench testing both 200w and 250w(EU standard) front hub drive Bafang motor wheel builds, using a common battery and controller. Both motors were 'off the shelf', and shop built into double-walled alloy rim wheels. I've written it up elswhere on this forum in the past 2-3 weeks. The 250w wheel was the slower of the two. In this basic a level of testing, there isn't much scope for me to have messed up the build, and the result (speed off speedo) was pronounced by an ebike mechanic with a sound knoweldge of electronics.

Someone with arthritis in his/her feet or knees might find a throttle controller easier to use than a pedalec. It'll be the country's failed experiment if we go backwards with ebikes by adopting 23-25kmh ebike motor cutouts, with pedalec speed controllers; as a trade-off for a 0.07hp (50w) power increase.
User avatar
alan101
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:46 pm

Re: 250w ebike - could be good.

Postby Comedian » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:58 pm

alan101 wrote:SNIP
So Comedian, what's your ideal ebike's spec? You've already expressed delight that it could have a pedalec controller.


That's a good question. I'm actually quite happy with the proposed legislation. I think it's quite good. I also like the pedelec control aspect of it. The reason is that it actually ensures that people must at least do some pedalling to get motor assistance... which I think is a good thing. It also extends the range of the bikes which is good, and could allow for smaller batteries.

I also like the speed governing aspect of the proposed laws and I don't think 25k is really problematic. As I've said before there is nothing stopping you peddling and propelling the bike to speeds beyond the motor assistance threshold. If you don't think it's possible then choose different type of e-bike and get a bit fitter. You'll still have your motor assistance to fall back on should there be a big headwind or a steep hill.

Let me remind you that the average commute speed in the netherlands is 15kph.

Why can't you use a race bike to do the commute? One of my guys at work used to ride 30k each way no problems. If you do have a very long commute that you can't do on a race bike then have you considered a velomobile? One of those would gobble a 30k commute no problems. Whats more... they have all sorts of advantages over conventional bicycles.



Alternatively, why not one of these puppies? You don't need a bike licence, or to pedal. Plus, you can do 50k per hour on it. :) You can carry way more too. Only 25c a charge apparently. It's cheaper than a decent race bike too and it would be one less car on the road. :)

Image
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

Image
User avatar
Comedian
 
Posts: 4391
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Failed 250w experiement

Postby Joeblake » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:23 pm

alan101 wrote:Someone with arthritis in his/her feet or knees might find a throttle controller easier to use than a pedalec.


I refer you to the proposed legislation

http://www.bv.com.au/file/file/RTA%20May%2009.pdf

which says at the bottom of page 8:

Requiring a pedal or throttle activation is seen as an unnecessary design restriction with no proven road safety benefits, therefore the motor activation mechanism will not be specified in the definition, although a condition for its activation could be specified. For example, a throttle control can still be used on a PAPC which motor can only provide assistance when the rider is pedalling.

I think this covers your point, does it not? You seem to be in agreement.

Joe
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

EU standard - strict, council ebikes, Vic elec vehicle trial

Postby alan101 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:37 am

It's stating the obvious but to be clear, the EU 250w/25kmh ebike standard is very strict. Australia can't adopt it with the qualifier that the cutout will be at 32kmh or the power 300w. That would be an Australian Standard, and the bike retailers don't want to pay for the development of a new standard; and our bureaucrats aren't savvy enough to care. The retailers want access to European and Japanese ebikes, and these will be EU standard compliant. My recent 250w EU motor experiment shows that changing the controller will not overcome the speed limiting facet, as the motor is built with 25kmh max speed incorporated in it's design; and hence slower than my 200w unit. This isn't in 'remove the carby throat constrictor and it'll go fast' territory, it's tight-ass.

The Australian ebike standard we adopt will probably stand for the next 20 years. Hence, I don't want to see ebike capabilities go backward. I'm not optimistic on this point, though; given the current approach to exclude public and ebike professional input. One might think that Bicycle Victoria and Bicycle NSW would represent ebiker interests in this, but they are closer to representing the bicycle retail industry than their assumed cyclist client base. They half want to eschew ebikes as cheating machines (hence speed limiting appeals), while half being open to promoting them as something new to sell. It would be a mistake to believe their management boards know much about ebikes, other than the bling retailers pedal to them.

(Late entry) Joe, the NSW RTA paper presents many options, and I'm glad there's something about not mandating a pedalec control to the exclusion of a throttle. That paper very prevaricates on commitment, and canvases many options. It'd be nice to know Fed DoI's current thinking on ebike legislation, but they're keeping mum. As mentioned, a UK site a year ago had an ebike retailer in anguish that England might have to comply with the EU standard on pedalec control (no throttle), and hence lose him half his customer base (who wouldn't be able to access full power). I hope your flagged text comes to past. My apology, this post went up first thing this morning and I didn't see Comedian or your posts. I wasn't presuming to ignore you.

Comedian - I did the 2010 MAD 120km ride (out of Melbourne), and the 65km circuit support vehicle was a velomobile. I stopped to take his picture, and had a quick chat. Soon after, I was removing a jacket on a hill top, and he rode up the hill. I thought I'll pack quick and ride behind to see how he goes. In a blink, he was 200m further down the road and after 3km was perhaps 0.5km ahead of me. Based on a 3-wheel recumbent trike (I believe), fairing made by an Aust plastic water tank manufacturer, and his was sold for $7k through Abbottsford Cycles (where he was a mechanic). It was surprisingly quick, although I was on my last legs having already ridden 90-100km (partly in 25kn headwinds); on only my second century ride in recent history. That Velomobile definitely had pace, and its component set wasn't even high spec (105 rear derail, bits n pieces). I've found some of the tandem bikes on my Beach Rd weekend ride are screamers, too. I busted a gut to catch one's wheel, only for the elderly couple (60y? both watching me in helmet rear view mirrors) to put the hammer down and drop me within 1km.

There's no disputing that good road bikes are generally faster than ebikes, but then the ebike legislation is meant to keep ebikes within the normal bicycle performance envelope- which it rather oversteps the mark on (eg is overly conservative at 25kmh cutout). I've got 2 bikes with 23mm tyres and Ultegra groupsets, one roadie and one flat-bar, which are what I use to do 70-120km club rides, as the ebike's range isn't in contention for that amount of work. Like I said, the ebike is rather good for coming home 34km from Melb CBD into a 15-25kn arvo seabreeze, carrying trousers in the pannier and picking up groceries nearer home.

On LinkedIn this week, chaps from Sunshine Coast Council and Coffs Harbour City Council mentioned their councils having small bicycle fleets which include one and two ebikes, respectively. Coffs Harbour council copped major flack on a newspaper website from irate citizens for wasting rate payers money on $2k Gazelle bikes. I posted that having council staff out riding would have benefits in understanding local road safety and bike infrastructure issues, as well as providing low cost transport. Once bikes are accepted, they're cheap enough to grow organically to fill the niche they can service. And ebikes perhaps expand that range, with additional carrying capacity and time efficiencies.

Also new (to me), the Victorian govt is hosting an electric vehicle trial. Charging points needed setting up, and a map showed 8 stations across Melb CBD/Docklands. The parking space is way more expensive than the electricity provided. Four models of car (incl Nissan and Mitsubushi) are involved, with 41 out of a planned 160 EVs currently on-road. Lots of focus on data collection: distance driven, frequency and amount of charging, user views, user demographics, etc. Compatibility of cars with chargers was a definite issue, with no current Aust Std and various entities globally vying for evolving market share. Vic and UK respectively projected that around the years 2015 and 2018 electric vehicles would start to come into their own, as petrol costs rise and EV battery prices decrease. In UK, battery cost = $500/Kw hr, with a 20Kw hr battery therefore worth about $10,000. RACV road side assist are providing support, with a trailer having a generator to top up an EV with 8kms worth of drive capacity. Be good if they extended their bike support plan with this for ebikes!
Last edited by alan101 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
alan101
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:46 pm

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Joeblake » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:29 am

As I said previously, it looks like you've not done your homework, you've acquired unrealistic expectations, and you've rushed in like the proverbial bull at a gate. You've displayed abysmal ignorance as to what it is you're really after, and now you're trying to find someone else to blame for your own lack of knowledge. It's your own problem, just deal with it yourself and stop whingeing.

Perhaps there's a very good reason why you find yourself in a very small minority and the people you claim you've approached have ignored you. It's about time you accepted that you've got little or no support here as well, and are unlikely to get more.

HTFU.

Joe
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

You've not done your homework ...

Postby alan101 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:12 pm

Joe said, "As I said previously, it looks like you've not done your homework, you've acquired unrealistic expectations, and you've rushed in like the proverbial bull at a gate. You've displayed abysmal ignorance as to what it is you're really after, and now you're trying to find someone else to blame for your own lack of knowledge. It's your own problem, just deal with it yourself and stop whingeing".

Needless to say (Joe), I find your comments distasteful, condescending and without basis. I spent 40 mins on the trainer last night to HTFU, so am at least following one bit of your advice. We ought to be discussing the merits or otherwise of each others' arguments, not slanging personal insults. I take ebikes to be an important transport and social phenomenon, and this level of discussion is a turn off for people seeking insight. The EU 23-25kmh speed limit would look aspirational to you on a 35kg rig averaging 18kmh, so I shouldn't expect you to understand my view. What a pathetic level of discourse.
User avatar
alan101
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:46 pm

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Joeblake » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:29 pm

Again, retrospectively altering your posts. At least you had the minimal courtesy to flag you had made a change, but not what the change was.

Why wait 4-5 hours to make changes? Why not do the honest thing and make a completely new post, instead of trying to hide your actions and expecting other people to try and work out what you originally said?

Joe
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

Re: You've not done your homework ...

Postby Joeblake » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:47 pm

alan101 wrote:We ought to be discussing the merits or otherwise of each others' arguments


I fail to see what "merits" your arguments have. They appear to be totally irrelevant.

In Sep 2010 you posted the following:

Preliminary response to my submission to Bicycle Victoria's Board - on not endorsing the 250w/25kmh pedalec standard from the EU as an Australian Standard.

'The board received your submission and considered the matter at our meeting just last Monday (27/10/10). You will receive a letter of response but basically the board remains committed to the adoption of a single Australian standard for e-bikes as proposed by the NSW RTA and a speed limit at 25 kmh. There will be more detail about our reasoning in the letter you will soon receive'.


It would seem that you've made your submission, it has been read by the appropriate people, and you have received your answer, and you are now "arguing" because you don't like the answer, rather than the law itself.

That is the end of it. There's no point complaining about that here. Nobody is going to change anything.

If the people sitting on the "board" are as ignorant about cycling and e-bikes as you seem to think, they certainly won't be reading this thread.

Joe

On Edit: I notice in rereading your original post that although you posted on 30 September 2010, the letter claims that their last meeting was "27/10/10". I hope you brought this discrepancy to their attention. :lol: :lol:
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby cachexian » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:35 am

Take it easy Joe.

Personal attacks are not on - it's hard to read your tone into your posts whether you are writing with tongue in cheek or not.

In any case - Alan101's position is clear, so is yours. You disagree except on the issue of pedalec...move on.

I for one read Alan's posts about legislation etc with interest.

Cachexian.
Scott Sub 40 with 200W, 36v Ezee geared front hub motor
and...
Trek Madonne 3.1 driven by left leg and right leg
cachexian
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:39 pm

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Joeblake » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:17 am

cachexian wrote:.
Personal attacks are not on -


Could you please point to any "personal" attack? If you read my posts carefully, you'll see I've attacked actions and arguments. eg the arguments are without merit, and they are irrelevant, not the person himself. Or an action was dishonest, not the person.

I would have said the same thing regardless of who said/did them.

Joe
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

Throttle vs pedalc control

Postby alan101 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:34 am

Cachexian, thanks for your interest. Joe suggested that people lobby on the ebike legislation issue, and for several days I have shared my experience doing that, as a way of providing context for future lobbying effort. It's hard won experience over 18 mo, and Joe has dumped on it as self-serving whinging. Govt dept contacts can be located at <www.gov.au>; for local, state and federal government.

Joe, the Bicycle Victoria comment (Sept 2010) you cite was gained by me after googling board members names and contacting several privately, after waiting several months for a BV response to my ebike legislation submission. Little was known about why 23-25kmh ebike limiting was being proposed, and that was to get up a quick post on BV. The 'will be further explained in a Board letter' only came 5mo later after I wrote asking for it, and was basically a one liner saying they're not changing their view (support only EU 250w/25kmh standard). While my submission was 14pp and about 40 points raised, what the board saw was more like one or 2 paras. In my post above, when I said '(late entry)' all comment after that is new material and the preceding text unaltered. Must say, I view web posting content as a form of information publishing. My focus isn't convincing Joe Blake that my views are correct; although he can provide impetus to make comment, and tries to keep posts on theme. When he says no one on this forum agrees with my views, it could be because he hounds anyone with an opinion different from his own out of the shop.

I have the acquaintance of 5 ebikers who think 25kmh limiting is retrograde and uncalled for; two run ebike businesses and a third was on the ABC's New Inventors with a 2kg motor/battery that can push a bike uphill for 7km (but light enough to pedal normally). On the other hand, I email with 2 older chaps around 75y who think 25kmh speed limiting isn't a problem, both with severe arthritis and heart problems; one a past president of Bicycle Victoria. Both probably prefer a throttle to pedalec. So in my world, Joe, you're wrong that no one shares my view that ebikes needn't be speed limited to 25kmh or denied throttles.

Overnight, I thought about the throttle issue and dug out this Sept 2010 email para from a UK pedalec expert. I note that I sent it on to an officer at the Australian Bicycle Council (part of Fed Dept of Transport).
"It seems your legislators have completely misunderstood the 6 kph EU throttle. It's not for assistance on take-off, it's solely intended for walk alongside power to help walk the bike up any hill too steep to ride. The only implementation of it to date that I know of is on the Panasonic e-bike unit as an optional extra, and only on BikeTec Flyers from Switzerland and variously badged production from Derby Cycles gmbh of Germany, though anyone using that unit could offer it. On those, the pedelec is bypassed by the optional thumb throttle but since the pedal torque sensor isn't in play, the power is at the minimum level, not even enough to pull the bike-only up the steepest slopes. It only helps the rider when walking the bike alongside and is really not enough to pull the bike away with a rider on board. Of course there's legally nothing to stop it having more power for pulling away purposes, but there are no 6 kph designs that can do that to my knowledge".
User avatar
alan101
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:46 pm

Re: Throttle vs pedalc control

Postby Joeblake » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:45 am

alan101 wrote:My focus isn't convincing Joe Blake that my views are correct; although he can provide impetus to make comment, and tries to keep posts on theme. When he says no one on this forum agrees with my views, it could be because he hounds anyone with an opinion different from his own out of the shop.

So in my world, Joe, you're wrong that no one shares my view that ebikes needn't be speed limited to 25kmh or denied throttles.


Please do not misrepresent my views:

Perhaps there's a very good reason why you find yourself in a very small minority and the people you claim you've approached have ignored you. It's about time you accepted that you've got little or no support here as well, and are unlikely to get more.


Joe
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby cachexian » Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:47 pm

Joeblake wrote:As I said previously, it looks like you've not done your homework, you've acquired unrealistic expectations, and you've rushed in like the proverbial bull at a gate. You've displayed abysmal ignorance as to what it is you're really after, and now you're trying to find someone else to blame for your own lack of knowledge. It's your own problem, just deal with it yourself and stop whingeing.

Perhaps there's a very good reason why you find yourself in a very small minority and the people you claim you've approached have ignored you. It's about time you accepted that you've got little or no support here as well, and are unlikely to get more.

HTFU.

Joe


Perhaps this comes down to a issue of the definition of "personal attack". But I think that the above quoted comment is an attack and, in my opinion, it's too harsh.

Indeed there is a vocal majority of posters on this forum that don't agree with Alan101 on several issues but that doesn't mean that his opinion is not interesting to other ebikers and cyclists who read this forum but don't post.

Also, this being an open forum, anyone can read it including those that are interested in investing in the technology such as myself a year ago. Back then I would have been very interested to know about the issues raised by Alan101 before investing in an Ebike.
Scott Sub 40 with 200W, 36v Ezee geared front hub motor
and...
Trek Madonne 3.1 driven by left leg and right leg
cachexian
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:39 pm

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Joeblake » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:09 pm

cachexian wrote:Perhaps this comes down to a issue of the definition of "personal attack". But I think that the above quoted comment is an attack and, in my opinion, it's too harsh.


I have contacted you privately on this.

Joe
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Joeblake » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:09 pm

:mrgreen:

Joe
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

2010 Melbourne Bike Festival web posted ebike paper

Postby alan101 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:47 pm

The 2010 Melbourne Bike Festival web posted my ebike paper, and I was invited to the final awards ceremony. They don't carry the paper any more, but here's a reference. Rather good of them to carry something a bit controversial I thought, and good to get the ebike concept out there amongst younger people.
http://www.melbournebikefest.com.au/bet ... article/11

That link comes from this page 'Finalists'.
http://www.melbournebikefest.com.au/better-by-bike

The bamboo bike pipped me in my class (?!).

From that posting, someone from the Alternative Transport Association contacted me and we met. My paper subsequently went to them, and influenced their ebike submission to govt. I was recently given access to (4) 45 min talks from their electric vehicle group monthly meetings. From that I heard details about EVS's AustPost 1000 ebike and 300 e-trike roll-out by end 2011, which I've posted last week on a LinkedIn network read by local govt planners and other professionals. I wouldn't say interest is nil in alternative thoughts about ebike parameters.

But from the transport and related bureaucracy it's more like eyes wide shut, and the blind leading the blind. Where's the discussion paper from federal Dept of Infrastructure about the current ebike legislation proposal and call for public comment after 18 mo 'work'? About 15 mo ago, they positively wouldn't accept submissions - 'it's too early'. Call them today, and they'll probably be so guarded you won't learn a thing. Climate change abatement? Health costs of an aging population? Regional transport dislocation? Participative democracy? Just keep the wheels true, battery charged, and ride when you can.
User avatar
alan101
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:46 pm

91.5kmh top speed for bike, ban bikes from roads? Bike safet

Postby alan101 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:17 am

In my last talk with the Road Safety Unit in Fed Dept of Infrastructure a few months back, chap mentioned that ebikes were being categorised (in an EU 250w/25kmh context) to be bicycles. Ebikes must operate within the performance envelope of bikes. I observe that the top end of the bicycle envelope recently got raised with this item (source: Gizmag e-newsletter 11 Aug 2011):

http://www.gizmag.com/new-world-record- ... dium=email

'This sleek, human-powered missile on wheels is called Eiviestretto and it's one of the world's fastest recumbent bicycles or HPVs (human powered vehicles). On August 2nd, Francesco Russo of Switzerland rode this custom-built streamliner to beat the world record in one-hour cycling by covering a distance of 91.556 kilometers (56.89 miles). The new record was set on the DEKRA Test Oval track in Klettwitz, Germany'.


My 75y ebiker mate Alan Parker recently sent me these 2 items. The first is a sobering reminder of how unsympathetic govt transport bureaucrats can be to bicycles. This in Victoria:

More of cycling safety and planning.
I stopped cyclists from being banned from main roads with fast traffic 25 years ago by persuading a legal adviser from the premiers department , who was asking me If I agreed with Vic Roads' proposal to ban cyclists from main roads and compel them to ride on adjacent shared footpaths. As the research officer of Bicycle Victoria (Known as the Bicycle Institute of Victoria in those days ), I told him he should go and look at two sections of main road with shared footways on one side of the road(only) on a Sunday when these shared footways where full of pedestrians, child and novice cyclists. A few days later he phoned and told me that experienced cyclists and racers were going to continue to be able to ride on the roads. The patron of Bicycle Victoria Minister Brian Dixon who I knew well at the time no doubt put his view to cabinet in on my side.

What VicRoads has done for the last 30 years - no cycling group should agree to. As Gueenie I would say "I am not amused".


BEYOND SAFETY IN NUMBERS: WHY BIKE FRIENDLY CITIES ARE SAFER
According to a June 27th, 2011 Planetizen article "Davis, California, is widely celebrated as the bicycling capital of the United States with over 16% of the population commuting to work on bikes. What is less well known is the fact that the traffic fatality rate in Davis is also unusually low, at about 1/10th of the California statewide rate. Although this fact is not widely disseminated, there is growing data showing that cities with very high use of bikes for routine transportation almost always have much lower than average traffic fatality rates. The finding that most bike friendly cities are safer than average has been reinforced by the recent experience of cities such as Cambridge, MA; Portland, OR; and New York. These cities have garnered much press for their success in dramatically increasing bike use over the last several years. This increase in bike ridership has corresponded with an equally dramatic decrease in traffic fatality rates in all three cities. Interestingly, the decrease in fatality occurred not just for people on bikes, but for all classes of road users -- including people in cars and people on foot..."

Source: http://bit.ly/oVXJBU . Archive search: use "Search" window. Archive cost: No
Title: "Beyond Safety in Numbers: Why Bike Friendly Cities are Safer"
Author: Norman Garrick & Wesley Marshall
User avatar
alan101
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:46 pm

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Joeblake » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:31 am

Please keep your political views to yourself. This thread is about law, not some soapbox for you stand up and rant on about your ill-informed views.

Joe
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

Re: 91.5kmh top speed for bike, ban bikes from roads? Bike s

Postby Joeblake » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:34 am

alan101 wrote:In my last talk with the Road Safety Unit in Fed Dept of Infrastructure a few months back, chap mentioned that ebikes were being categorised (in an EU 250w/25kmh context) to be bicycles. Ebikes must operate within the performance envelope of bikes. I observe that the top end of the bicycle envelope recently got raised with this item (source: Gizmag e-newsletter 11 Aug 2011):

http://www.gizmag.com/new-world-record- ... dium=email

'This sleek, human-powered missile on wheels is called Eiviestretto and it's one of the world's fastest recumbent bicycles or HPVs (human powered vehicles). On August 2nd, Francesco Russo of Switzerland rode this custom-built streamliner to beat the world record in one-hour cycling by covering a distance of 91.556 kilometers (56.89 miles). The new record was set on the DEKRA Test Oval track in Klettwitz, Germany'.



This is rather hypocritical, isn't it? You won't consider riding a recumbent yourself, yet you want to hop on a recumbent bandwagon to beat your own drum. :lol: :lol:

Joe
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby alan parker » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:41 pm

History of electric bicycle legislation in Australia and the EU
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having a Federation of States and Territories, each with their own road traffic regulations applying to imported pedelecs and E-bikes, is inept and complex because pedelecs are not made in any State but by Asian trading partners who mass produce safe pedelecs complying with EU regulations and standards. Compliance with EU regulations and new safety standards for ion lithium batteries and E-bike component parts is required in Australia but no Commonwealth or State Standard for these exists. This regulatory bungle started in 2001 and has spread to the new national strategies Road safety (ATC 2011), Bicycles (Austroads 2011) and Future Cities (DIT 2011), which was released with no mention of the word pedelec. The brief should have been to make roads safer, cities more liveable and with better use of bikeways by importing the best and safest pedelecs and E-bicycles. The more light weight (max. 40 Kg) two wheelers are on the bikeways and streets with lower speed limits the safer it will be. (Peck 2009)

“The Model Australian Road Rules” were adopted at a 2001 meeting of State Transport Ministers but many of the Ministers failed to adopt the model rules for 200 watt E-bikes. Most enacted contradictory road rules and only some went along with the 200 watt rule. No further action was taken until February 2011 when the then National Bicycle Committee attempted to get the new Department of Transport and Infrastructure (DIT 2011) to fix the problem and accept the need for 250 watt E-bikes. According to a member of the National Bicycle Advisory Committee, action is possible in November in 2011. (Parker 2011) Vic Roads, on the 29 April 2010, reaffirmed its existing 200 watt rule. (Victorian Government Gazette 2010) Yet Bicycle Victoria, which has 45,000 members, through its representative on the State Bicycle Advisory Committee, (Hosted by Vic Roads) said that “It expected all Australian States to adopt the new European Standard of 250 watts”. The former EU standard also had a 250 watt requirement (Bicycle Victoria 2011) Worst of all the Australian Bicycle Council in its report on the future of bicycling (Austroads 2010) made no mention of the need for elderly and lame bicyclists or postal workers to use pedelecs. Even so, the first 200 watt Australia Post bikes, 36 volt Ion lithium batteries, have been in use in Melbourne since March 2011

Meanwhile the world market in quality bicycles, pedelecs and e-bicycles is booming. More and more bicycles that are to be sold on the European markets are made in Asia. (Jamerson and Benjamin 2011). Nine million bicycles were imported into Europe from the top ten Asian manufacturers.

1 Will the EU implement new rules and regulations by early 2012?

In 2010, the European Two wheeler Retailers’ Association (ETRA) was given an opportunity to explain in detail to the European Parliament why the European Union’s (EU) new 2011 regulations for the review of the type-approval for two- and three-wheel motor vehicles is not well adapted to E-bikes and E-scooters and creates even more confusion than the previous legislation, In the EU countries; a Member of European Parliament, Wim van de Camp, invited the ETRA to make a submission to the EU. The ETRA submitted a proposal based on two main principles applying to E-bikes and E-scooters. The differences between the 2 principles are very important: (Bike Europe 2011 A)

1. Exclusion of all pedelecs with pedal assistance up to 25 km/h in order to allow the EU to amend the Classification under the Machinery, Directive+ EN 15194, the current standard. This would exempt these vehicles from the type-approval procedure and they would be classified as bicycles. As a result they could be used In the EU without helmets, drivers’ licenses or insurance.

2. E-scooters with pedals, up to 45 km/h cycles that can be propelled by the motor itself, would still be subject to type-approval but the procedure would be adapted to suit so that unnecessary requirements would not apply.

Australia has no mechanism for adapting to point 2 above and it should be rejected because the maximum speed permitted is 45 Km /Hr which makes them less safe for riding on shared footways, bikelanes and residential streets with low speed limits

The draft report of the European Parliament on the review of the type-approval has been published on 5 May 2011. The Rapporteur, Wim van de Camp, has not yet introduced any provisions for the benefit of electric cycles and light electric vehicles because he is still considering the safety issue because of a dispute between the cycling organisation (ETRA) and the import dealer association. The deadline for such provisions is unknown.

If the regulations in dispute have not been resolved by the EU by June 2011 a planning opportunity exists for the Australian Commonwealth and State Government to give Australian consumers and importers what they want, while keeping compulsory helmet wearing, which can be piggy backed onto any new Australian 250 watt road rule. They also need to collect exposure data on both bicyclists and pedelec.

There is a need consider the safety records of large pedelec fleets in the EU. British Royal Mail had 14,000 pedelecs. Deutsche Post has 8,000 pedelecs, France in 2011 ordered 5000, Posti Finnland about 2,000. Other pedelec fleets are in use in the Netherlands, Denmark, Italy, Austria and Switzerland, and now in use in Sydney and Melbourne. Indeed, Australia Post were impressed with the safety record of European postal services and did not see safety problems with 250 watt pedelecs but by passed the Victorian regulatory constraint by retro fitting postal worker bicycles with new powered front wheels with 200 watt geared brushless motors. The retro fitter was EVS Electric Vehicles (EVS 2010). While the ATRF conference is proceeding watch for the accident reports and complaints by the postmen that they need a mere 50 watts more on their E-bike. Will 250 watts be needed in hilly areas for those over 50? The objective was to cut CO2 emissions by 1,000 tonnes a year and reduce the need to use motor cycles.

In 2011, or early in 2012, the wattage could upped to 250 watts in Australia.The 250 watt power limit already applies to nearly half of the world's population (3.13 billion); the Australian population is only 0.7% of that number. The Chinese government wants its manufacturers to mass produce 250 watt pedelecs to comply with new EU safety standards. (Watts 2010) This limits the choice of pedelecs in Australia unless it adopts the EU standards.

3. Perhaps pedelecs are as safe as bicycles in five EU countries but not the US

EU countries’ policies on road safety for their citizens have differed greatly in the past. Since 1990 remarkable progress has been made. In all countries fatality risk has been reduced by more than 40%. In 2010, the lowest fatality rates found in the United Kingdom 3.0, the Netherlands 3.7 and Sweden 3.0 deaths per 100.000 persons. (IRTAD 2011) Three types of death rates based on IRTAD data are given below in Table 2.

Ideally, it is desirable to analyse the three road safety risks measures used by the international IRTAD accident analysis to compare the safety levels in those countries experiencing a large growth in both bicycle and pedelec usage, as is done for other road vehicles. In 2010 Pedelecs and E-bike fatalities are counted in with bicycle fatalities.
alan parker
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:31 pm

Very interesting! + AustPost ebike

Postby alan101 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:15 am

Alan, thanks for a very informative update on current EU 250w/25kmh and Australian ebike legislation, both existing and proposed. Clarification on some of the timing issues gives particular insight. You clearly haven't dropped the ball in promoting ebikes as sustainable transport, in a country that is slow to join Europe and Asia in embracing a broad market offering quality ebike products. In the talk alluded to below, it was said that 30% of European new bike sales are now ebikes.

With the AustPost ebike roll-out, I've learned a bit. EVS are delivering 1000 ebikes and 300 e-trikes by end-2011, for use in all states and territories. Reducing carbon emissions was a factor in their decision to go with ebikes. This compares with AustPost's current fleet of 7-8000 Honda CT110 motorcycles. They use 36v 350w front hub motors, but had to adopt a restrictive 7A controller (normally200w uses 15A) to comply with current 200w max Aust regulations (producing 199w at patch on the ground). The trial started with 10Ah Li-ion batteries, went to 14Ah (I got one recently after a 6mo wait) and are now rolling with 16Ah Li-ion batteries. The first Li batteries needing replacement started surfacing after 2 years, but there'd be a big range in route distances and difficulty. These ebikes weigh 38kg and have 18kmh max speed, suited to stop/start delivery of mail to about 1000 mail boxes per round. The frames are cro-mo out of Taiwan. I've got a reference to 203mm mtb disc brakes, in that the motor hub can take disc brakes. They use a 3-speed Nexus hub shifter on the rear, and a brake motor cutout.

I visited EVS's shop in Hallam 5 weeks ago, and they had 5 or 6 of the e-trikes in from SA for service. Apparently Qld really like the trikes, too, with 75 in use there. The manager said that early in the 3y development, the bikes were getting wrecked everywhere but the frame from hard use. Hub gears were getting stripped with constant stop/start, batteries and controllers were cooked in a few cases, and anything else that could be broken with flogging was. A mail run is a different concept from a 5km ride to the shops on something you cherish. The bike, rider and mail weigh 170kg. Hence the trial upped motors from their standard 200w recreational/commuter motor to the current 350w unit to gain robustness. The amount of work a 350w hub motor does in China can be pretty impressive, from my experience. The current models are hence the result of vigorous product testing. Apparently the Honda motorcycles get swapped out every 2 years or 40,000km, which gives context for ebike performance comparison.

Working with the federal standards regulator (Road Safety Standards Unit, Fed DoI) could be frustrating, because they don't understand electronics or electric propulsion systems. EVS have got these govt chaps into the parking lot to ride an ebike, which is heartening given they're going to be writing new regs for the rest of us.
User avatar
alan101
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:46 pm

Alt Transp Assn: Input to Fed Road Safety Strategy 2011

Postby alan101 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:27 am

If we could make the world a better place, with ebikes playing their part, what could we dream up? The Alternative Transport Association put in this submission to the Federal Government's Draft Road Safety Strategy for 2011-2020. The author noticed they had a comment regarding electric bikes, 'which was basically the restrictive idea floated by the RTA in NSW'.

ATA Electric Vehicle Interest Group: Proposed Rules for Electric Vehicles February 2nd, 2011 See fourth green heading down page for link.
http://www.ata.org.au/index.php?s=electric+bike

This submission mentioned 32kmh speed limiting and a 750w max for ebikes, with an interesting trade-off for speed limiting. The document used current road rules applied to the e-bike context which 'Removes the conundrum from the whole e-bike debate and avoids the nonsense from the RTA proposal'.

Their webpage abstract included:
'As the public consensus for a transition to a low carbon economy continues to increase, the choice for more sustainable transport options will also be demanded from the community'.

'Responding to this demand are a number of radical new vehicle designs which come under the heading of Light Electric Transport that are in the prototyping stage or have recently been put to market that conform very poorly, if at all, to the current regulations'.

'Also, the drafting of legislation for electric bikes, electric scooters and other wheeled devices has been reactive and has become problematic as evidenced by inconsistent rulings across different jurisdictions, both nationally and internationally'.

'The general approach has been to draft legislation from the perspective of the bicycle which really only caters for those vehicles that resemble a bicycle in design'.

'If legislation was drafted with the view of embracing solutions for reducing urban transport congestion and de-carbonising the transport sector then a far wider range of vehicles designs could be accommodated for'.

Commenting from my 200w legal ebike perspective, my ebike motor's power fades to nil input at 32kmh. So 32kmh speed limiting (above submission) would represent the current status quo with Australia's ebike legislation, or at least how that manifests in Victoria. Electric motors differ considerably from petrol motors in their performance paradigm. That is, max torque occurs at startup speed (eg 1kmh) and max HP around half way through their rpm range (perhaps 16kmh). A hub motor needs to spin quicker than it's wheel to have best power, so my Bagang motor has approximately 16:1 planetary gear reduction. By the time an ebike is doing 33kmh, its' HP output is nil; and we're talking flat/calm pedal-assisted kmh here. Hence, for a 200-250w ebike, there is no need for speed limiting. This motor limitation characteristic is reinforced by the 20-30+kg weight of the ebike and wind resistance rising 'exponentially' above 30kmh. Have you ever cycled carrying 8-15kg of groceries? That's the weight penalty an ebike has imposed over an averagish 15kg bike. It's fairly punitive to say the motor won't go fast, carry extra weight and suffer wind impedance >30kmh; AND we're going to cut power to your motor at 23-25kmh. For a spend of $2000-3000, people need to experience the small benefit that a 250w (0.35hp) motor can provide.

This week, I road tested my 250w EU motor ebike hill climbing the You Yangs park to the lookout parking lot. I'll reinstal the 200w motor and do the same climb again soon, to provide comparative data. The climb route was from the turnoff for the lookout up 1.44km to the parking lot and a sign overlooking Melbourne's western planes with a view to the city, and is a medium difficulty climb. The average speed for 4 climbs was 21.7kmh. I'm a 59y fit cyclist, and do 50km Beach Rd rides with a carbon/Ultegra groupset bike regularly on the weekend, and can mix it with pelotons (although can drop in hills). I also did a 12km circuit on a good quality gravel road around the base of the You Yangs. In flat spaces, the highest max speed I could crank out was 29.1kmh with this EU 250w 21kg Jamis Coda Sport 27 spd ebike with 32mm tyres. Battery is 36v 14Ah Li-ion, motor an EU standard 250w Suzhou Bafang front hub drive (10.4A max), using a thumb throttle and 15A controller. Next time around with a 200w Bafang motor, I'll use the same 15A controller, throttle and 14Ah Li-ion battery; so will be comparing 200 and 250w Bafang motors with other variables common.

I have commented occasionally that Australia has gone to several wars to protect our sovereignty, so why are we leaning towards adopting a retrograde EU ebike standard so happily (Bicycle Victoria's enthusiasm comes to mind)? I once said this on an Audax 100km ride, and the listener quickly retorted that Australia has only ever fought at the behest of its imperial masters. He had a good point, and I don't often make the comment anymore. To give currency, what would be Australia's interest in spending $1bn a year waging war in Afghanistan, at the cost of 29 servicemen's lives? Protecting subsistence level goat farming?
User avatar
alan101
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:46 pm

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby alan parker » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:03 pm

There are 700,000 electric bicycles why with similar urban populations does Australia have a few thousands.
Not only that why is there no mention electric bicycle in the draft CO2 Australia policy when Dutch transport planning has so improved bicycle electric bicycle use that it reduces Dutch CO2 emissions and fuel consumption. Australian 2010 CO2 emissions from cars is around 57 million tonnes but only 17 million tonnes in the Netherlands.

The findings of the Dutch Cyclists’ Federation show that if all car journeys up to 7.5 km were replaced by cycling trips, CO2 emissions would decrease by 2.4 million tons per year. That is a 6% reduction of Dutch car traffic emissions and one eighth of the Dutch objectives in the framework of the Kyoto Protocol. Every km travelled by pedelec instead of by car, means less CO2 emissions, more precisely 90 gram less per km cycled. The result is approximately 150 to 500 kiloton less CO2 emissions. Although this result is limited, compared to cars, it is significant.

Using a pedelec in the Netherlands instead of a car use some 5 to 6 kWh per 100 kilometres, compared with 80 to 100 kWh for a ‘medium size’ car. As a result, each pedelec on the road allows avoiding on average 900 car kilometres per year and with that 80 litres of petrol. The average medium size Australian car would use 150 to 200 kWh and emit around 3 tonnes of CO 2 (Green Vehicle Guide 2011).


Enhanced mobility of the elderly needed worldwide including Australia the majority of Dutch electric bike users are the elderly and commuters.

In 2006, 16.8% of the population in the EU-27 was aged 65 and over, that is almost 83 million people and the number is growing (ETRA 2008]). More of them become less mobile as they age. In some EU countries the elderly were helping themselves. 700,000 pedelecs and electric bikes were being used, mostly by elderly people, in the Netherlands in 2010 thus providing evidence that the pedelec was part of a real transport solution for the EU’s 65+ population Ootrwijn J, (2010) Bike Europe News Flash for Bike Professionals

Japanese public health researchers knew of the need to enhance the mobility of the elderly 15 years ago; with an elderly population aged over 65 of 28.7 million some mobility aids like the pedelec were needed. Around 70% of pedelec users were women over 50 years of age.


Australia has a proportionally smaller elderly population than Japan but Australian data shown on figure 6 and below show the proportion and mix of common elderly ailments. Many other elderly conditions could also benefit from using 2 and 3 wheeled pedelecs: asthma, MS, lung heart and muscle conditions, obesity, alcoholism chronic fatigue syndrome. However there is a data vacuum on some conditions apart from those on figure 6 above

In Australia in 2004–05, 31% (6 million) of the population (33% of females and 29% of males) reported having a long-term disease of the musculoskeletal system and connective tissue. Of the total population in 2004-05, 15% reported having arthritis, 15% reported having back problems, and 3% reported having osteoporosis. In 2004-05, of those with arthritis, 51% In Australia in 2004–05, 31% (6 million) of the population (33% of females and 29% of males
reported having a long-term disease of the musculoskeletal system and connective tissue.

Shimano has new electronic pedelec components and a computer to monitor: riding mode, battery power, gear indicator, speedometer and odometer which will be available soon. Daimler a German 250 watt pedelec innovator offers: four levels of power assistance to 25 km per hour with a range up to 90 km by the smart use of four levels, integrate with smart phones and can also listen to music. Daimler has a theft prevention measure that many police forces will be pleased with. By removing the pedelec smart phone its effectively locks the drive motor
alan parker
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:31 pm

Re: Legal issues - what are the DEFINITIVE laws

Postby Joeblake » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:18 pm

Errr guys ... do we actually get to read the original documents for ourselves so we can make our own decisions, or do we just take you on trust, when you hand down your Jovian *pronouncements? :roll:

Joe

*edit spelling
To acquire immunity to eloquence is of the utmost importance to the citizens of a democracy
Bertrand Russell
Many people feel their lifestyle has a high price, but they're quite cool with that .. as long as somebody ELSE pays the price.
Joeblake
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Lesmurdie WA

PreviousNext

Return to Electric Bicycles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Support BNA
Click for online shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Cycling Express Cycling Express
Ebay Ebay AU
ProBikeKit ProBikeKit UK
Evans Cycles Evans Cycles UK
JensonUSA Jenson USA
JensonUSA Competitive Cyclist
cron