Mmm tasty new Avanti

Beating the system - the cycling commuting section

Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Oxford » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:00 am

find_bruce wrote:
Oxford wrote:as for the cost, when you consider the lower running costs/maintenance of belt drive, the cost amortised over the life of the bike is nothing really. the wheels should last almost forever with proper care without the rims being used as braking surfaces. and not having any drive train muck to stain either clothes or employer's floors (my bike comes into the office with me now) means those arguments are settled.


Sounds like some serious rationalisation going on :D

If you need some more arguments, if I caught the bus instead of riding, that would cost me $40 x 48 = $1,920 so I would save the money in less than a year

yes but if I don't ride a bike to commute I ride a moto. I already own the moto outright and would either way (it replaced a car) so general running costs of moto are basically nil (ie rego, insurance etc) for this purpose. the only real cost is additional maintenance and fuel which I have worked out costs about $10 a week (for a full week of moto commuting), parking at work is free. so running costs for commuting are less than $500 a year for moto. compare that to bus fares which are in excess of $9 a day and three times longer than moto, or the bike which is free now (EOT facilities at the workplace) and takes the same time as a bus anyway (roundabout route to avoid roads where possible). I prefer the bike when I can ride as I get the side benefits of exercise.

so I suppose in short, yes I can justify the bike on costs and exercise benefits very easily, but I would probably sell some of the stable to fund it (make it cost neutral) and reduce the number of bikes I am just not using at all now.
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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by BNA » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:16 am

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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Nobody » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:16 am

Oxford wrote:as for the cost, when you consider the lower running costs/maintenance of belt drive, the cost amortised over the life of the bike is nothing really.
Seen any numbers on how much longer (if any) a belt and cogs are supposed to last? Last I read, a belt was 5000 Km. Some people can get that out of a chain.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Nobody » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:20 am

Max wrote:No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO! Please don't turn this into a "steel is real" thread.. we already have one of those (actually, many)!
Why did you quote me and not him? I wasn't the first to mention it. :?
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby MattyK » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:44 pm

Max wrote: Hey, I checked out the links that MattyK sent through. I couldn't quite tell if it has pannier mounts at the back. Does anyone know?

Max


Appears to be, look at the small hole at about 11 o'clock above the axle bolt:
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And the small silver dot on the seat stay between the tyre and seat post:
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Oxford » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:52 pm

Nobody wrote:
Oxford wrote:as for the cost, when you consider the lower running costs/maintenance of belt drive, the cost amortised over the life of the bike is nothing really.
Seen any numbers on how much longer (if any) a belt and cogs are supposed to last? Last I read, a belt was 5000 Km. Some people can get that out of a chain.

Yep, I'm getting that out of a chain already on the fixie (KMC Gold), but I can also wear out rings and sprockets, which from what I understand is not as big an issue for belt drives. Plus the other benefits I mentioned, but were not quoted, such as no mess drivetrain cannot be quantified in $$$ terms.
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby MattyK » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:19 pm

Looks like Scott are in the game too:
http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/08/22/201 ... more-34435
http://www.scott-sports.com/gb_en/produ ... 013/221820

Very similar but with the 8-speed Alfine and the older Gates belt (not the Centre Track)

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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby TailWind » Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:28 pm

MattyK wrote:Looks like Scott are in the game too:
http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/08/22/201 ... more-34435
http://www.scott-sports.com/gb_en/produ ... 013/221820

Very similar but with the 8-speed Alfine and the older Gates belt (not the Centre Track)


The bike was on display at Ausbike as well - liked the bike, but lamented the lack of the newer tech, i.e. Gates Carbon CenterTrack and Alfine 11.
Hope they are considering an upgrade - would definitely make my potential next commuter list...
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Crawf » Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:38 pm

Funny how I'm nearing 7000km on my belt with barely a mark on the teeth. The 5000km claim is outright BS.
I wouldn't be so stuck up on the centretrack or no centretrack, it'll still be a sweet ride.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby MattyK » Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:40 pm

TailWind wrote:The bike was on display at Ausbike as well - liked the bike, but lamented the lack of the newer tech, i.e. Gates Carbon CenterTrack and Alfine 11.
Hope they are considering an upgrade - would definitely make my potential next commuter list...

You can lament the lack of specs, or you can celebrate the fact it is about $5-600 cheaper.

Crawf - I imagine the biggest benefit of the CenterTrack belt is that it would make "chainline" alignment less critical. But with a straight frame and an EBB this should be moot.

Actually the main benefit (for me) I'd see that puts the Avanti over the Scott is the 5-bolt chainring. There are more ratio options in this size compared to the 4-bolt.
    My chained Nexus hub runs 44/16 = 2.75.
    CDC/CDX only has 24T belt sprocket, max 55T 4x104 front ring (2.29)
    CenterTrack has a 22T sprocket option, max 5x130 60T ring (2.72 - perfect)
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Nobody » Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:30 pm

Crawf wrote:Funny how I'm nearing 7000km on my belt with barely a mark on the teeth. The 5000km claim is outright BS.
I wouldn't be so stuck up on the centretrack or no centretrack, it'll still be a sweet ride.
Good, I'll be interested to know how far you actually get and if you need any cog replacement after a belt change. Also how much is a new belt?

I think the reference for the 5000 Km / 3000 miles was a guy who was riding around the world on one. Maybe he got a lot more dirt etc. Could be bothered looking for the link at the moment.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby landscapecadmonkey » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:48 pm

Nobody wrote:Optimistic. The hub itself is about $900 and belt drive setup is about $400. You could be waiting a while.

Yeah, your probably right, far too optimistic i think. Was half expecting (hoping) that maybe a larger bike co scales of economy would see the sum price of all these funky parts (which are mated to some other lower spec parts), down at a lower entry price point, but thats prob awhile away yet. But, i still think there is potentially a huge market for this set up, as it takes a great deal of the hassle out of maintenance and urban riding, maybe within a year theyll be alot cheaper as an n+1 option for myself.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Comedian » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:57 pm

Cruiserman wrote:Wouldnt waste the bandwidth it is Al and we all know you only ride steel - so until you move into the 20th century it is technologically out of your league.


Funny thing is... I'll hang out until they do a carbon version. :)
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Eberbachl » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:59 pm

That Scott Sub 10 looks lovely. I saw it at Ausbike Expo and wanted to take it home there and then!

:D
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby find_bruce » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:24 am

Comedian wrote:Funny thing is... I'll hang out until they do a carbon version. :)


My initial reaction was that the split frame would be an interesting engineering challenge, but it seems Trek have already done it

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/to ... t_carbon/#

Only US$3,629.99 plus shipping & GST.

Edit: this is for a single speed - you will need to add the IGH

Still if you are spending that kind of bucks, may as well upgrade to a rohloff :D
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby CommuRider » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:37 am

Carbon for commuting? Cracked rear stay due to pannier weight. :|
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby rkelsen » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:50 am

Nobody wrote:5000 Km

Belt life is often quoted as being in the range of "hundreds of thousands of km."

Put it this way: How long does a cam belt in a car last?
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Cruiserman » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:49 am

Comedian wrote:
Cruiserman wrote:Wouldnt waste the bandwidth it is Al and we all know you only ride steel - so until you move into the 20th century it is technologically out of your league.


Funny thing is... I'll hang out until they do a carbon version. :)


Even funnier is that the comment was aimed at our Steel is real and you shouldnt ride anything else forumite. CF is the frame material of choice here too. As for cracked rear stays from panniers - what are they that is why we were given a back so we could carry a backpack. Between a backpack and some planning there is very litte to carry each day.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Cruiserman » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:55 am

rkelsen wrote:
Nobody wrote:5000 Km

Belt life is often quoted as being in the range of "hundreds of thousands of km."

Put it this way: How long does a cam belt in a car last?


80 - 120k klms you hope otherwise the cost of replacing it will be multiplied by many times to replace bent valves, damaged pistons as well as a machining of the head, disassembly and reassembly etc. Possibly also the life of a cam belt would be worse than the life of a belt drive for a bike. Oil contamination, startup and shutdown stresses convoluted belt path, heat, coolant spillage, the list goes on. So 5k out of a bike belt and I would be going back to the manufacturer and asking Say What.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Comedian » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:56 pm

Cruiserman wrote:
rkelsen wrote:
Nobody wrote:5000 Km

Belt life is often quoted as being in the range of "hundreds of thousands of km."

Put it this way: How long does a cam belt in a car last?


80 - 120k klms you hope otherwise the cost of replacing it will be multiplied by many times to replace bent valves, damaged pistons as well as a machining of the head, disassembly and reassembly etc. Possibly also the life of a cam belt would be worse than the life of a belt drive for a bike. Oil contamination, startup and shutdown stresses convoluted belt path, heat, coolant spillage, the list goes on. So 5k out of a bike belt and I would be going back to the manufacturer and asking WT?.

Ironically it's chains that are used in engines where longevity is sought! :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Nobody » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:02 pm

Cruiserman wrote:Even funnier is that the comment was aimed at our Steel is real and you shouldnt ride anything else forumite.
Where have I specifically said that? Everyone has freedom of choice and opinion.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Nobody » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:05 pm

rkelsen wrote:
Nobody wrote:5000 Km

Belt life is often quoted as being in the range of "hundreds of thousands of km."

Put it this way: How long does a cam belt in a car last?
90-100,000Km for a cam belt typically these days. But that doesn't answer the question of how long a bike one lasts. Got any references on how long a Gates bike belt is supposed to last?
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby CommuRider » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:18 pm

What is the life of the system?

In laboratory testing, the Carbon Drive System lasts more than twice the life of chain. Chains are often replaced due to stretch and wear rather than actual failure. The Carbon Drive belt does not stretch, so the smooth running performance remains consistent throughout its life. Abrasive environments can accelerate wear of all bike components. For maximum durability, rinse off your belt drive after sandy / gritty ride.


http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/support.php?lang=us

The thing is, how many people here use belt drives? I only know of one. As it's a fairly new thing and uncommon, there isn't a big enough sample to do a proper comparison on wear and tear on belt drives v. chains. Maybe 3 to 5 years down the track when more of us have a belt drive bike to make an adequate comparison.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby Nobody » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:25 pm

CommuRider wrote:
What is the life of the system?

In laboratory testing, the Carbon Drive System lasts more than twice the life of chain. Chains are often replaced due to stretch and wear rather than actual failure. The Carbon Drive belt does not stretch, so the smooth running performance remains consistent throughout its life. Abrasive environments can accelerate wear of all bike components. For maximum durability, rinse off your belt drive after sandy / gritty ride.


http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/support.php?lang=us

The thing is, how many people here use belt drives? I only know of one. As it's a fairly new thing and uncommon, there isn't a big enough sample to do a proper comparison on wear and tear on belt drives v. chains. Maybe 3 to 5 years down the track when more of us have a belt drive bike to make an adequate comparison.
Thanks CR.

If they last twice as long but cost four times as much, it won't be economics that drives the change to this system.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby CommuRider » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:29 pm

Nobody wrote:If they last twice as long but cost four times as much, it won't be economics that drives the change to this system.


The weight weenies out there sacrifice XXXg for $$$$! So there is definitely a market out there!

What is the weight of the Carbon Drive system?

Weights will vary slightly depending on the sizes of the sprockets and length of the belt. For example, a Carbon Drive system setup similar to a chain driven 32/19 single speed ratio weighs:

46 tooth sprocket - 84g
28 tooth sprocket - 74g
122 tooth belt - 82g
TOTAL - 240g


:lol:

C'mon weight weenies, even a Ti chain is marginally lighter than that.
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Re: Mmm tasty new Avanti

Postby CommuRider » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:47 pm

This from 2009

http://road.cc/content/news/10168-cycle ... aking-bike

So what does a round-the-world record bike look like? Well, a bit dusty and with some odd-looking appendages, but the Travelmaster has seen off its 18,000 miles without major incident. The belt only needed to be changed once during the whole trip, in Perth, and James was really happy with the performance of the drivetrain. The 14-speed Rohloff hub gives a gearing range equivalent to a triple chainset – over 500% – and it doesn't require any lubrication. Getting the belt properly aligned (it's much more critical than with a chain) and tensioned (it requires much more tension to work efficiently) are the main issues, but given that we're seeing plenty of the belts coming through onto production machines now it seems that many manufacturers, Santos included, think the benefits for certain applications outweigh the problems.
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