The Intervals Thread

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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:26 pm

fringe_dweller wrote:This is where having an experienced coach can really help. Not sure if Alex can recommend anyone..... :twisted:

I can recommend several. :D
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by BNA » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:04 am

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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:04 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Have you not trained and raced more this past year than previously?

Without a really solid understanding of your actual workload (which is a function of volume AND intensity), it is impossible to say really.

For those familiar with the Performance Manager concept / Impulse-Response model of training, then it will show up what the differences in overall loads have been and the training patterns. It is an exceptionally revealing tool for post-hoc assessment of a season.

July 2011
42 spin classes, 38@45-50minutes, 4@60minutes (45 min = about 24 intervals, 60 min = about 32 intervals)
About 1,500k on road, largely commuting (fixie), including some racing K's
Races, I forget, um 2 RAWS, Sydney Road Titles, Ride for Life, NSW ITT, ATTA ITT. Suppose I could look in my log

The above was probably a slightly heaver than normal month. August was less than half of that due to the blown rib and no racing. (At Southern cross cup, I gauged my fitness against Michael, M5 rider from Penrith, who I did a breakaway with at Sydney Road Titles and my guess there is that I haven't lost fitness)

Now there you are right, my work load has gone up, the road K's are about the same, but the spin classes have more than doubled. Though I no longer have a window to do track training.

fringe_dweller wrote:This is where having an experienced coach can really help. Not sure if Alex can recommend anyone..... :twisted:

Try this guy, his trainees are always at the pointy end of field

http://www.turbostudio.com.au/coaches.html
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:20 pm

BTW - I'm talking workload patterns over whole years, not just a month here and there.
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:04 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:BTW - I'm talking workload patterns over whole years, not just a month here and there.


I probably don't have the right data;
2000 - 2007 Bike commuting, weight lifting, yoga
2008 Bike commuting, weight lifting, yoga, track training, Waterfall, started bike racing at the end of the year
2009 Bike commuting, weight lifting, yoga, track training, Waterfall, bike racing
2010 Bike commuting (fixie), (some) weight lifting, (some) yoga, Waterfall or similar, bike racing, spin classes (for example in July 2010 I did 18 spin classes)
2011 Bike commuting (fixie), (occasional) Waterfall or similar, bike racing, lots of spin classes (for example in July 2011 I did 42 spin classes)
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby lethoso » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:21 pm

clearly yoga was slowing you down
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:33 am

mikesbytes wrote:I probably don't have the right data

No.

It requires a means to establish the daily training stress "load", which is a function of the daily training volume and intensity, and then to model that stress load's positive impact (improvement to current fitness) and negative impact (increase in fatigue). You then build up a picture of training over months and years.

One can then assess the balance between each, primarily to ensure the optimal dose of training is performed (enough to promote fitness improvements without over reaching too far).

It also enables one to investigate past training and identify what training patterns resulted in good and poor form. It's exceptionally good at that (provided you are supplying reliable inputs).

It is an exceptional "retrospect-a-scope".
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:02 am

Well I don't have that data, but I may be able to take a guess, if I looked at a model to compare with.

I came into this sport with a strong upper body, strong hamstrings and weak quads. Over time I've built the quads but I feel there is a way to go with them. I've recognised my weaknesses and taken simple actions to rectify them.

What I feel I need now, is a good understanding of what actions address what and why. Then I make small adaptions to focus accordingly
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby vander » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:22 am

Mike if you dont mind me asking what was your starting weight with the upper body mass? Have you lost a lot of it and how long did it take?

I am in the same position as when you started. Except I have almost cold turkeyed the weights already going like once a week or less to get my fix :P .
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:39 am

vander wrote:Mike if you dont mind me asking what was your starting weight with the upper body mass? Have you lost a lot of it and how long did it take?

I am in the same position as when you started. Except I have almost cold turkeyed the weights already going like once a week or less to get my fix :P .


Of memory I started bike racing at 82kg and then went up to 84kg. Nowadays I'm 77kg
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby vander » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:40 am

mikesbytes wrote:
vander wrote:Mike if you dont mind me asking what was your starting weight with the upper body mass? Have you lost a lot of it and how long did it take?

I am in the same position as when you started. Except I have almost cold turkeyed the weights already going like once a week or less to get my fix :P .


Of memory I started bike racing at 82kg and then went up to 84kg. Nowadays I'm 77kg


Not much change you must not of had as much bulk as I have although your not too much lighter. Do you still do the weights?
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:06 pm

I'm sure my legs are heavier

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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:02 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Well I don't have that data, but I may be able to take a guess, if I looked at a model to compare with.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... nager.aspx
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:35 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Well I don't have that data, but I may be able to take a guess, if I looked at a model to compare with.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... nager.aspx


Thanks Alex,

Its largely gone over my head, I'll have to read it a few times, but some quick points from it;
    Chronic training load, or CTL, provides a measure of how much an athlete has been training - historically
    Acute training load, or ATL, provides a measure of how much an athlete has been training - recently
    Training stress balance, or TSB, is, as the name suggests, the difference between CTL and ATL, i.e., TSB = CTL – ATL
So need to quantify the above against my history/current

And there's a simple definition based on what event you are targeting;
    <0.75 level 1 recovery rides
    0.75-0.85 level 2 endurance training sessions
    0.85-0.95 level 3 tempo rides, various aerobic and anaerobic interval workouts (work and rest periods combined), longer (>2.5 h) road races
    0.95-1.05 level 4 intervals (work period only), shorter (<2.5 h) road races, criteriums, circuit races, 40k TT (by definition)
    1.05-1.15 shorter (e.g., 15 km) TT, track points race
    >1.15 level 5 intervals (work period only), prologue TT, track pursuit, track miss-and-out

Unfortunately I target everything, though the focus changes during the year
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:55 pm

Alex,

Is this the sort of data in question? (not mine, but someone I know)
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:18 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Alex,

Is this the sort of data in question? (not mine, but someone I know)

Yes, although it probably needs to be seeded with starting ATL & CTL values and plot a few other things like daily TSS and perhaps some mean maximal power numbers for durations of specific interest. Predicated on:
- all cycle training being accounted for and using accurate power meter data
- correct threshold power setting being used through the season

but in essence you can see overall training patterns.

In this case some consistent training Nov 2010 to early Feb 2011 (subject to proper seeding of the chart), then it looks like a week or so of no or almost no training (travel, sick?).

Then a couple of weeks of training to get back into it, probably before a race block through second half of March to early/mid April.

Then training was in fits 'n' starts for a few months, possibly on/off racing and a rider who was either doing big events and having to recover, or trying to train lots in short blocks to prep for a race and recovering as a result.

A sharp spike in the CTL line at end-April which suggest a big weekend or riding/racing. Couldn't sustain the effort after a week of trying.

Through the period mid-April to end-July, training seems to meander (weeks of going hard, weeks backing off), which sort of happens when you are trying to have a longish racing period (of course I don't know who this is or what they were actually doing) or if your training time is interrupted with rest of life issues and you are trying to make up for lost time.

The more recent training indicates a sharp rise in CTL over ~ 4-5 weeks. That is either unsustainable (without some excellent recovery help, like being on holiday, lots of sleep etc), meaning the rider is increasing their susceptibility to illness or over reaching, or perhaps the rider's threshold power is underestimated.
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby vander » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:08 pm

Very interesting read Alex. So if you are getting a lot of sleep and you recover well (stretching etc) you can offset some of the negatives associated with a heavy increase in training? What sort of IF scores would be indicative of an under predicted threshold power also in the early weeks would this maybe improve more quickly then what you would test it if so would you ever up your threshold power without retesting it?
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:59 am

vander wrote:So if you are getting a lot of sleep and you recover well (stretching etc) you can offset some of the negatives associated with a heavy increase in training?

one at a time! lol

Clearly someone that has the ability to eat, sleep and recover after hard training has an advantage over someone that has to, say, go to work. The training load one can sustain is most definitely linked not only to the amount of sleep, but the quality of that sleep. I have one athlete using a sleep monitoring system and we have collected a year's worth of data. The relationship is pretty clear for him.

vander wrote:What sort of IF scores would be indicative of an under predicted threshold power?

If you are attaining 1-hour IF scores of >1.05 from a hard race or race like effort, then it's an indication of an underestimated threshold power.

vander wrote:also in the early weeks would this maybe improve more quickly then what you would test it?

Typically training gains are faster in the early stages of training, especially when starting out relatively unfit (in particular if you have been well trained previously and/or respond to training well. Response rates to training are individual and has a fair genetic component). The need to update threshold power for the purposes of performance management charts is likely to be required more frequently earlier in a training cycle.

vander wrote:if so would you ever up your threshold power without retesting it?

Pithy Power Proverb: "Training is testing, testing is training." - A. Coggan

IOW with enough experience, you can make sound estimates of threshold power changes based on regular training and racing. However for most, a sound, repeatable and consistent testing protocol is advised but one must remember it is still only one data point (e.g. you might just have a bad day). With a power meter, you are monitoring your power every day.

Perhaps come along to our training with power camp and learn some stuff:
http://www.turbostudio.com.au/canberra_camp_online.html
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:09 pm

His power metre is in his training wheels, not his race wheels. So I'm guessing the data doesn't include racing

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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby vander » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:22 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Perhaps come along to our training with power camp and learn some stuff:
http://www.turbostudio.com.au/canberra_camp_online.html


I would absolutely love to. But being a poor uni student living out of home im scraping for dollars anyway so unless a whole bunch of cash jumps in my wallet before then I wont be able to :( . Any money in winning races :P
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:10 am

mikesbytes wrote:His power metre is in his training wheels, not his race wheels. So I'm guessing the data doesn't include racing

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Then to make any sense of it, he needs to:
1. use power when racing as well, or
2. estimate the TSS for rides not using a power meter

Without all training being accounted for, then the chart is pretty useless as a retrospective analysis tool.
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:16 am

This is the sort of thing I'm looking for, not saying that the list below is correct;

- Sprint power, for example end of a crit: 12 second sprints, preferably on a rise
- Peak Load, for example in crosswinds: 25 seconds, perhaps 20 seconds on, 40 seconds off or 40 seconds on, 20 seconds off
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:39 pm

mikesbytes wrote:This is the sort of thing I'm looking for, not saying that the list below is correct;

- Sprint power, for example end of a crit: 12 second sprints, preferably on a rise
- Peak Load, for example in crosswinds: 25 seconds, perhaps 20 seconds on, 40 seconds off or 40 seconds on, 20 seconds off

Is that a question, or a statement?
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:47 pm

Question

- [objective], [action to achieve the objective]
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:15 am

mikesbytes wrote:Question

- [objective], [action to achieve the objective]

Well you'll need to rephrase it, 'cause I've got no idea what it is you are asking!
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Re: The Intervals Thread

Postby fringe_dweller » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:48 am

I think Mike is asking for some example intervals, and what area it is that they target.

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