Brand new to Adelaide.......

Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby TheBrewer » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:08 am

Let me say first, what a great city you guys have for getting around on a bike, I'm amazed at the amount of effort that has gone into making this city bike friendly, even if a few of the larger road users aren't as welcoming.

Just a quick question regarding Adelaide's Road Etiquette.

For years I've always made myself like a car when it comes to turning right at traffic lights etc. but I've noticed a number of intersections have a cyclist button along with pedestrian buttons. I'm assuming these are to allow you to go straight across an intersection and if need be you can then make a hook turn to the right when the lights change. I've lived pretty close to CBD's all my life and have rarely needed to activate lights, there has normally been cars around.

Where I'm a little stuck, Adelaide seems to have a lot of left turn and right turn (side streets) that meet more major roads with a set of traffic lights. (Think corner of Winifred Ave and Cross Rd) If I want to turn right from Winifred, do we have an etiquette of where to wait and how to activate the lights so I can get across. I'm hesitant to use the pedestrian button to get across, but how else can I make the lights know I'm there?......I've specifically been warned against ignoring traffic lights here, apparently Joe Law is not terribly sympathetic.

Thanks in advance.
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by BNA » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:10 am

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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby jzr » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:10 am

TheBrewer wrote: If I want to turn right from Winifred, do we have an etiquette of where to wait and how to activate the lights so I can get across. I'm hesitant to use the pedestrian button to get across, but how else can I make the lights know I'm there?


This explains how the sensors and the cyclist push buttons work: Traffic light tips for cyclists

Now, I always thought the motor vehicle lanes had weight detection - I haven't seen too many intersections being dug up over the years so if they say it's a metal detector then it must be true.

You should check out the rest of the site to pick up on any other state specific road rules/laws that you may not be aware of yet.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby CommuRider » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:55 am

Welcome...now to your nick, does it mean you brew stuff? If so, what kind of stuff?
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Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby whostolemybike » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:37 am

Hook turns are dangerous, i never really use the bike cross button, i just make like a car.


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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby MichaelB » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:52 am

whostolemybike wrote:Hook turns are dangerous, i never really use the bike cross button, i just make like a car.


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We don't have them here in SA, thank almighty for that. If you try and do one here, you'll be flattened quick smart.

The Bike button is just another way to trigger the lights if there are no cars.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby jzr » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:26 pm

MichaelB wrote:
whostolemybike wrote:Hook turns are dangerous...


We don't have them here in SA, thank almighty for that. If you try and do one here, you'll be flattened quick smart.


I know we don't have the official 'hook turns' like they do in VIC but after putting my reply in, I decided to snoop around the SA Gov 'cycling and safety' sections and came across this little handbook published by DTEI (warning: 1MB PDF): Cycling and the Law.

On page 15 they have this information :? :

HOOK TURNS
When turning right at an intersection, you have the option of making a hook turn (from the left lane), rather than making a normal right turn. A hook turn may be more convenient on some roads, such as those with heavy traffic.

When making a hook turn, you must obey all traffic laws such as only proceeding on a green light and giving way to other traffic.

You must complete the following steps (see diagram):

1. Approach and enter the intersection from the left side.
2. Move forward and wait on the opposite left corner.
3. Then proceed onto the road to which the right turn was to be made.


I have never heard of this nor seen anybody do it. Normally if you didn't want to do the right turn I thought you would go straight, sticking to the left and pulling up in front of the cars on your left waiting to go straight (which is the direction on your right currently), turn your bike around and wait for the those lights to go green and go straight?
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby MichaelB » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:00 pm

Interesting, but I don't care what DTEI say you may do, as no SA motorist will understand what the hell you are doing, and consequently run you over.

In SA, motorists are very precious about their lane space :|
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby Dahondude » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:36 pm

I do hook turns in Adelaide all the time, mostly coming south down King WIlliam when I want to turn right.

"I have never heard of this nor seen anybody do it. Normally if you didn't want to do the right turn I thought you would go straight, sticking to the left and pulling up in front of the cars on your left waiting to go straight (which is the direction on your right currently), turn your bike around and wait for the those lights to go green and go straight/"

Yes thats a hook turn. Watch cars do it in Melbourne..they are meant to wait until the lights on the road they are leaving have gone amber/red, before proceeding onto the road they want to enter.

Those bike buttons at intersections are there to help speed up the process of getting lights to change in your favour. Many intersections its difficult to get a bike to set off the detectors in the road, so they put a button there for riders.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby MichaelB » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:50 am

Dahondude wrote:I do hook turns in Adelaide all the time, mostly coming south down King WIlliam when I want to turn right.


Braver man than me :D

wrt the magnetic detectors in the road. I have found that if you position the bike in the middle of the two loops (sort of a sideways '8'), it works quite well. Mind you, that is with alloy rims.
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Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby Dr_Mutley » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:45 am

Might be an inadvertent advantage of changing to speedplay cleats!
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby MisuVir » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:02 pm

jzr wrote:
1. Approach and enter the intersection from the left side.
2. Move forward and wait on the opposite left corner.
3. Then proceed onto the road to which the right turn was to be made.


I have never heard of this nor seen anybody do it. Normally if you didn't want to do the right turn I thought you would go straight, sticking to the left and pulling up in front of the cars on your left waiting to go straight (which is the direction on your right currently), turn your bike around and wait for the those lights to go green and go straight?


Isn't that exactly what the steps are describing? At step (2), you wait until the lights are green. I really don't understand how this can be unsafe - you're staying to the left of traffic at all times, and only proceeding forward when the other cars in your lane are going forward. The right turn is basically split into two parts. Yes, it is slower than just doing a normal right turn, but I feel it is a lot safer than changing over three lanes of heavy traffic to get to the turn-right lane.

I've never seen hook turns in other states, so maybe they're something different?
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby jzr » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:55 pm

MisuVir wrote:Isn't that exactly what the steps are describing? At step (2), you wait until the lights are green.


The approach I was describing is just basically pulling over then lining up with traffic still waiting at the lights (to your left) to end up going straight (the direction which was previously on your right). Confusing to describe without a diagram I know.

The hook turn allows you to actually make the right turn either on green if no cars or amber or I imagine as it goes red (provided the other traffic hasn't started moving yet) - this is what they do in Melbourne to give way to trams for example - cars line up on the far left and turn right when the opportunity comes.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby jzr » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:58 pm

Dahondude wrote:Yes thats a hook turn. Watch cars do it in Melbourne..they are meant to wait until the lights on the road they are leaving have gone amber/red, before proceeding onto the road they want to enter.
.


True. I meant I have never seen or heard of any cyclist doing the 'hook turn' here in South Australia as it was described in the handbook. As far as I know we don't have any hook turns for vehicles in SA so I agree with Michael that people wouldn't understand what you were doing if you attempted.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby you cannot be sirrus » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:02 pm

Dahondude wrote:I do hook turns in Adelaide all the time, ...

Not all the time but there are several locations/times when I do a hook turn and never had a problem with cars when doing so.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby Dahondude » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:09 pm

jzr wrote:True. I meant I have never seen or heard of any cyclist doing the 'hook turn' here in South Australia as it was described in the handbook. As far as I know we don't have any hook turns for vehicles in SA so I agree with Michael that people wouldn't understand what you were doing if you attempted.


We do have one...buses turning right from King WIlliam to North Terrace perform a hook turn from the left hand side of the road, in exactly the same way cars do it in Melbourne and the same way I do it on a bike. I am still scratching my head why people think this is such a dangerous thing to do on a bike, unless we are getting confused by talking about intersections that are or are not controlled by traffic lights (I'm talking one with traffic lights). You are riding along one road, enter the intersection and then pull up on the left hand side of the intersection in front of cars waiting at the red light on the crossing road. Swing your bike around to face 90 degrees to the direction you were originally heading. Wait for the lights to turn green and then head off. On the original road you are always on the left hand side of the road so never in the way of moving traffic. On the new road you pull up to the left of cars waiting at the red light, so you arent in their way. The light goes green and they head off and you head off just as normal. The Qld Road rules website explains it very well
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Queensland-Road-Rules/Bicycle-rules.aspx#hook-turns
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby jzr » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:43 pm

@Dahondude - ah yes, that old chestnut for the buses on North Terrace/King William!

The turn you describe is the one I was trying to describe earlier in that you are never turning right you are essentially changing your position.

I don't see any problem with this at all and figure this is the way it is usually done but I wouldn't necessarily have thought of this as a true hook turn?

The hook turn I think could be dangerous is the one the buses do on North Terrace and the ones cars do in Melbourne - only due to the fact that if you wanted to start moving on amber and someone runs the amber light you could be in a bit of trouble. Same could be said if you were in a car either way.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby MichaelB » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:11 am

So the way you gutys seem to be describing your 'hook turn' is seeming to me to be equivalent of crossing the ped crossing (but not actually on it), and then waiting for the green to go in the new direction.

Strictly, this is not a 'hook turn' as seen in Vic, as the 2nd phase of the 'turn' is done on the amber of one phase prior to the green of the next phase. That's the dangerous way to do it in Adelaide, IMHO.

The other thing I do, is try and avoid those intersections where it is a bit dangerous.

The Buss hook turn on KW/Nth Terrace is not strictly a hook turn, as it is restricted to Buses only, much like the U-turn just past the Festival theatre.

Meh, do what you feel safest with, given the road structure and traffic.

Oh, and enjoy Adelaide :mrgreen:
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby Sumichino » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:01 am

So the way you gutys seem to be describing your 'hook turn' is seeming to me to be equivalent of crossing the ped crossing (but not actually on it), and then waiting for the green to go in the new direction.

Strictly, this is not a 'hook turn' as seen in Vic, as the 2nd phase of the 'turn' is done on the amber of one phase prior to the green of the next phase. That's the dangerous way to do it in Adelaide, IMHO.


That is the dangerous way to do it in Victoria as well. You have to wait for green on the road you are entering.
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Saf ... urning.htm

I also do hook turns all the time in Adelaide. I have never had any problems from drivers about it either. Most of the the time a driver is going to notice a cyclist doing a hook turn in front of them and is not going to run them over.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby Dahondude » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:35 am

OK I think we are now lost in the semantics of the hook-turn! As a few people pointed out all those Melbourne drivers that hook on amber are strictly-speaking breaking the law. Anyway, now I understand why people think a hook turn on a bike is dangerous and/or likely to make car drivers mad. I agree, swinging right on an amber light is both dangerous and will make it look like you are jumping a red light in the new direction you are heading. But, do a hook turn legally and its the safest way to turn right from a multilane road, or in fast moving/heavy traffic.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby MisuVir » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:01 pm

Dahondude wrote:OK I think we are now lost in the semantics of the hook-turn! As a few people pointed out all those Melbourne drivers that hook on amber are strictly-speaking breaking the law. Anyway, now I understand why people think a hook turn on a bike is dangerous and/or likely to make car drivers mad. I agree, swinging right on an amber light is both dangerous and will make it look like you are jumping a red light in the new direction you are heading. But, do a hook turn legally and its the safest way to turn right from a multilane road, or in fast moving/heavy traffic.


Oh good. For a while there I thought I was doing something strange. I suppose with a bicycle it is rather more like joining the other flow of traffic waiting at the lights because you can swing the whole bike around and can position yourself on the left, whereas with a car you'll end up perpendicular right in front of them.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby monbeg » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:56 pm

Dahondude wrote:OK I think we are now lost in the semantics of the hook-turn! As a few people pointed out all those Melbourne drivers that hook on amber are strictly-speaking breaking the law. Anyway, now I understand why people think a hook turn on a bike is dangerous and/or likely to make car drivers mad. I agree, swinging right on an amber light is both dangerous and will make it look like you are jumping a red light in the new direction you are heading. But, do a hook turn legally and its the safest way to turn right from a multilane road, or in fast moving/heavy traffic.


I agree, much safer and it doesn't pee anyone off.
This (Cross/Glen Osmond) is one example of many where I make a hook (follow arrows) turn, much safer than trying to into the right turning lane.
All you are doing in this case is moving safely from bike lane to bike lane and proceeding in both cases with the green lights.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby alex » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:35 pm

imo : a hook turn is only ever needed if you are unable to get into the right hand turn lane due to traffic flow. the actual turn from the right lane should not be dangerous for anyone - claim the lane, be confident and take off efficiently when the light changes (ie if you can't clip into your pedal and get moving in a hurry, maybe a hook turn is for you)
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby you cannot be sirrus » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:42 pm

monbeg wrote:
Dahondude wrote:OK I think we are now lost in the semantics of the hook-turn! As a few people pointed out all those Melbourne drivers that hook on amber are strictly-speaking breaking the law. Anyway, now I understand why people think a hook turn on a bike is dangerous and/or likely to make car drivers mad. I agree, swinging right on an amber light is both dangerous and will make it look like you are jumping a red light in the new direction you are heading. But, do a hook turn legally and its the safest way to turn right from a multilane road, or in fast moving/heavy traffic.


I agree, much safer and it doesn't pee anyone off.
This (Cross/Glen Osmond) is one example of many where I make a hook (follow arrows) turn, much safer than trying to into the right turning lane.
All you are doing in this case is moving safely from bike lane to bike lane and proceeding in both cases with the green lights.
.
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I always expect that I will have to do a hook turn at that intersection but so far I've always managed to safely turn right from the right turn lane, probably fairly easy to do on a quiet Sunday morning at 7;30, maybe not so easy with busy traffic during the morning rush hour.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby TheBrewer » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:16 am

Cheers guys, interesting reading.

Yeah my "hook turn" has always been based on waiting for the lights to change to green on the road I'm turning into, I'm not stupid enough to try and run a red....... :mrgreen:

I'm 36 years old and ALWAYS figured the loops on the road were weight sensors, not metal detectors, you learn something every day!

I'm busily trying to piece together all the bike paths etc around Adelaide now though, I did 46k's on Sunday mostly around the park lands and down to Glenelg and back but I'm amazed how often a bike track simply stops and seemingly disappears. I guess this is just a case of needing some more time to sort the shortcuts out. I was staggered that once you hit West Terrace heading east there isn't a dedicated route into and across the CBD and even the governments maps send you down Currie/ Grenfell St.

I'll work it out, I'm heading out to TTP this weekend, I've heard the Torrens, OBAHN (Sp) bikeway is pretty good riding and a 50ish kilo round trip seems a nice way to kill a Sunday.
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Re: Brand new to Adelaide.......

Postby rustychisel » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:28 pm

TheBrewer wrote:I'll work it out, I'm heading out to TTP this weekend, I've heard the Torrens, OBAHN (Sp) bikeway is pretty good riding and a 50ish kilo round trip seems a nice way to kill a Sunday.



My part of the world. BRLVR2 uses the Torrens path a lot too.

It's a great ride, lots of really nice stretches, but bear a couple of things in mind

- it's a shared use path with prams, kids and dogs and walkers so flat-out speed epics is not the way to go
- in parts the path is pretty average, damaged or covered in debris which ranges from branches to loose leaves and sand, gravel
- you can get lost. In places it's a braided path, intertwined with the O-Bahn and directions are sometimes not in evidence. We had river terrace flooding 2 years ago and some council areas who are responsible for the paths upkeep & repair have done a less than stellar job
- the spur off to TTP comes just after the run under the Sudholtz Road bridge, and points you to the left where you get dumped onto a suburban back street or two before the path reappears. It can be infuriatingly dumb.

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