N55 Spaceframe Vehicle New Style Recumbent Help!!!

[greenwaynegreen]

N55 SPACEFRAME VEHICLES
I have been bitten by the Bent Bug, I think with all the research I have been doing my wife thinks that I am up to nefarious deeds on the computer.
I love the concept of the N55 Spaceframe and the you tube video is awesome. Upon costing the build and reading the plans it left me with a few questions that I should get answered before I start the project.
(I cannot find a N55 forum) (I have also emailed the N55 group with no luck)

from the web site
Single person trike type dimensions:
Frame length: 1.5 m
Frame weight: 8 kg

Some links so people know what I am talking about....
What they call a manual is actually a series of pictures with a link on the page to the actual manual
http://www.n55.dk/manuals/spaceframeveh ... icles.html
the drawings for the single recumbent type (read pdf plan)
http://www.n55.dk/manuals/spaceframevehicles/DIY.pdf
Video - halfway though he takes it to the streets - It is really cool!


page 4 of the manual has a very inaccurate parts list, In fact I think it might have been the designers shopping list accidentally left on the drawings
The parts list also might have been for the extra long recumbent that they show but do not provide plans for. (it would be easy enough to extrapolate from the photos)
Adding up all the lengths of 25mm x 2mm aluminum tubing I get 11 meters not 20
Also I get the following bolt numbers... (way less than they are suggesting)
12x (6mm x 90mm)
38x (6mm x 60mm)
12x (6mm x 40mm)
8x (6mm x 30mm)
70 nuts and 140 washers
Disclaimer (my bolt numbers might be wrong as it is hard to tell late at night counting dots on a plan)

My questions fall into a few categories and any help would be awesome!!!

The front crank hub?
I can see how it is bolted in but there is no mention of what the hub is called, where you can get one etc. It does not look like a standard part that you can buy and bolt in.
There is a mention of a crank box but google does not help. I am thinking of cutting out a bottom Crank from a normal bike and fitting this in. Do you think this would work?
Also how many teeth does the crank wheel have? I might be able to count the teeth from the photo...

Wheels
600mm and 700mm wheels - I am familiar with inches and 700c but when it comes to straight 600mm and 700mm I don't know what they are talking about. To make matters worse looking at the photos it looks like the front and back wheels are the same size. AaaaaHhhhhh!!!
Larger BMX bike = 24inches = 60.96 cm - front wheels?
The standard Road bike is 27 inch = 68.58 cm - Rear Wheel?
Does anyone think these are the correct dimensions they were referring to?

I am wondering if I can get standard rear mountain bike wheels and center the hub or should I buy some new purpose build hubs and build them into an existing wheel. Any suggestions and links?
(I used to build bike wheels as a kid, I could hardly afford clothes let alone a new bike and the panniers for the paper round were hell on the rear wheel of any bike. So rebuilding a wheel is no biggie for me and I still have the spoke tools and the wheel vice) 25 years later I have only just now heard of courier wheels - A wheel that does not buckle under heavy loads sounds like cheating to me.

Steering
In one place they are referred to as self-greasing plastic washers, on the part sheet you refer to them as just 23.50 mm Ø plastic washer.
Do you think they mean nylon washers? and if so what is the thickness do you think is needed? Anyone know a good web site on this type of bushed steering?
It looks like a bolt straight through the aluminum. This cannot be too good for wear and tear. 1 long ride and the bolts would break and the holes would get routed out to a bigger size and get sloppy.

I found a aluminum place in Dandenong that sells the 25mm x 2mm tubing for $45 including gst for 6.5meters. This makes the build quite cheap and allot of fun!
(spell checker wants to change Dandenong to dandelion. (ok so its late and I think thats funny)

Thanks in advance for any help or advice!!!
Ps anybody had success with unicycle wheels on the front of a tadpole trike?
PPs I have hard rubbish in my area at the moment so a quick reply would help scavenging parts. Smile...
Kind Regards
Wayne

[Poiter]

Forget the trike.
Make the WALKING HOUSE http://www.n55.dk/MANUALS/WALKINGHOUSE/ ... house.html

[greenwaynegreen]

VS

pros - don't have to wear a helmet in walking house
Con - would take a long long time to get to work
pro - you live closer to your work
Con - your boss can find you too easily
pro - no speeding tickets
con - wouldn't it be cool to get a speeding ticket on a recumbent?

Pro - storage space on a recumbent and a second seat (not shown here)

Recumbent wins!!!

[Poiter]

I like the house better.

1. Front Crank hub - called a Bottom Bracket Shell is in real life. Hack one out of an old frame and leave some of the bits of seat tube and down tube to attach it to. Remember there are different threads on each side left hand and right hand. Get this right. The number of teeth depends on expected speeds and the cog on the back. A normal mountain bike or BMX crank ring will get you going.

2. The wheels look like Mountain bike 26" which are often called 559 as a descrption of the rim/tyre size. BMX 20" size are 405 and might work better for you. It looks like there are no brakes on the front - not good - but it might be my bad eyes. Also looks like it's using wheelchair hubs - cheap and should work OK. Have a search for Tim Smith Trike pages on Google to get ideas about hubs and steering and stuff.

3.Bolts - buy them from a speciality fastner shop in bulk and they will be cheaper.

4. Good luck

[greenwaynegreen]

1. Bottom Bracket Shell - meet Mr angle grinder
2. Tim Smith was perfect for the steering - I will make the appropriate changes
3. I think there are brakes - If you blow up the photos you can see a faint ring on the inside of each wheel of some sort of disk brake - there is no mention in the plans of what to buy or where to attach them but more research...
Before you mentioned the brakes I knew there was something vital missing in my plans to dominate the world, ahhh I mean build a recumbent.
I am not seeing much on Tims page about wheelchair hubs but I can see that they would be fantastic for the purpose. I will keep on searching for a good local supplier of wheel chair hubs.
Thanks so much Pioter!

not to go too OT but the rocket??? pretty girl riding a bicycle with a rocket on the front. Their tag line...
The N55 ROCKET SYSTEM enables persons to communicate their protest in a concrete way. It is a low tech, low cost, highly efficient hybrid rocket propulsion system, fueled by a mixture of polyethylene and laughing gas (N2O).
it goes on to say that you can ride the bike to a peace rally and distribute leaflets. Come on guys - tall buildings and kites that carry payloads are way easier to distribute pamphlets.


count so far 2 for the walking house 1 for the recumbent. This is not looking good so far on a recumbent forum. I will admit the walking house carry's a huge cool factor.
Wayne

[John Lewis]

G'day Wayne,

That space frame is different for sure.
Have you had a look at the designs over on Atomic Zombie ? I've built a few of them. Good honest machines that are pretty easy to build and go pretty well.

Poit,

You'll have to build that house and ride it round Oz.

John

[}SkOrPn--7]

Hi Wayne I reckon that is a awesome project you have started to invest in and I look forward to the day you finish the DIY.

Ricky

[Poiter]

Wayne

You might be able to find some cheap trike disk hubs with sealed bearings.
I think I have one kicking around somewhere if it's any use.

John

If I had a walking house and it walked as slow as it looks to do in the video, I could set it on auto pilot, go off to work for a day and then ride to a new location every night.
I do like the shape and layout and reckon it would be a great country shack even without walking.

Pete

[greenwaynegreen]

Thanks John and Pete,
I have figured out a cheap way of doing the cantilevered brakes on the rear wheel.

As to the front
I also have been doing bit of research on disk brakes for the front all be it the following link if for the rear wheel.
The link that I have found is http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disc-Brake-K ... 35b777cb8a
how do you put disk brakes onto a trike hub? Or the ones that you mentioned already come with a disk attached?

Any links to sellers or "how to" pages for disk brakes would not only help me but others as well.


As to a walking house on auto pilot...
Gps is bad enough but can you imagine a phone call where it ends up in the river.
You would cycle to the destination to find the house did not arrive where you expected it to be.
I was watching a documentary on the mars rovers last night and the team there had a hard enough time programming with only a 20 minute delay let alone programming a full day ahead.
Here is a photo shopped idea of the walking house in the Murray River after a go on auto pilot.

[Poiter]

You wont need a rear wheel brake if you have decent front wheel brakes on a trike.

The disk hubs are just like a mountain bike front hub except they have sealed bearings (usually) and a single sided axle.
Disk rotor just bolts on as usual to hub.
You need to figure how you will mount the caliper for the brakes on the stub axles assembly.

The house would float because it was so well made.

[greenwaynegreen]

Work in progress - I have been working on the concept of this hybrid for some time. It is important for me to incorporate the n55 concept with easily assessable parts.
The Steering mechanism is not built yet and I am looking at incorporating existing forks into the N55 design in a parallel instead of vertical way. It will be interesting to see the torque that it will introduce into the steering but I will deal with that as I get to it. It also seems that N55 specs call for standard 6mm bolts. there is no mention of bushers (not too sure on the spelling) only plastic washers as spacers. I was thinking of maybe going 10mm bolts with a vertical aluminium insert along the bolt as a bush.
If you want to catch up to chat just look for the steepest hill in Eltham and the tree at the bottom. I will be inserted into the fork of the tree Wyllie Coyote fashion.

More to come over the next couple of weeks. Any feedback good or bad is welcome. I have a thick skin! Smile
Kind Regards Wayne

[Poiter]

Wayne
The rear derailleur will need to rotate forward more that at present when under tension with the chain.
10mm sounds Ok for the kingpins.
Not sure aloominum bushes will last too long - nylon maybe better?
Are you talking about something like a pair of BMX forks to do the steering? Braking will be an issue then.
Pete

[greenwaynegreen]

It got so late when I was working on the mount for the rear derailleur. I will have to rework the rear wheel support to be at more of a angle to let the derailleur to swing forward more. Thanks for confirming my suspisions it means allot.
10mm it will be for the king pins.
Having a hard time finding nylon bushes even at the specialty nut an bolt shops. Thinking of buying a nylon cutting board from the supermarket and making my own.
For the forks I was thinking 26" thick mountain bike forks. (not the thin tapered forks) It is hard to describe it properly. I am worried that it will change the N55 geometary too much. So I drew this diagram.
Also I because of my design style I will need to drop the top chain slightly with a pully. Thinking nylon pully from the belt run of a clothes dryer.



This is sombodys ideas on the N55 project. Note the cool Wheel with pedal axle. The link to his ideas is here...
https://picasaweb.google.com/1062527014 ... Velomobile

[Poiter]

That all sounds OK.
I get the minimal cost thing I guess but it involves shortcuts.
The bushes could be made from a length of nylon rod on a lathe.
What size tube are you going to use to insert them into?
Trisled sell replacement nylon bushes which might work out but they press fit into 7/8"" tube and you have to ream them out after pressing them in.
I have plenty of used idlers and I could send you one - PM me!
Does the design even need the MTB rear end? Wouldn't the main aloominum members be strong enough to mount the wheel on?
Pete

[greenwaynegreen]

I still need to increase the size of the king pins to 10mm. The 6mm will be ok for a test ride but that is about it.
2mm toe in or neutral for the steering?
http://bicyclepatents.com/setting-toe-i ... rike/1185/
I realised that the N55 manual skips over some very important points. (like how he came to his conclusions regarding steering geometry)
Thanks Poiter. You have been a great help. I needed to know that the chain guide was called a idler and that the steering pin was called a king pin. This is really important stuff.
It has helped allot in my research.
I need to really think about what you said regarding losing the rear frame and going back closer to the N55 design on the rear. It is a very valid point. Once I weigh the difference between the two designs I think the Original N55 design will win by miles.
This is really looking to be mark1 of the design and I will have to make a mark 2 to be totally happy.
Greenspeeds magnum chair design looks awesome. I will have to make one of those. Between a blow torch a plumbers bending tool and my sewing machine I think I can manage it. Any suggestions welcome!
Where the rear derailleur sits I am still debating on design. I know that it will have to be changed.

[Recycler]

From what I see the steering will not work. Sugest you read up on the Ackermann Steering, good luck. Bob

[TexasTuiff]

Nice to see someone else involved in the N55 build. I also plan on starting this in about 6 weeks. I've a couple of medical issues to get out of the way before I start.
A difficult part for me to understand was the Ackerman steering. The pivot point from the king pin to the pivot point at the inside of the steerer tube is the Ackerman angle. Or at least as Ion of N55 called it in one of his post, the Ackerman principle. I don't know how many times I overlooked this before understanding. The point just to the inside of the steerer tube is a pivot and should be treated as such with a bushing.
The steering setup is rather simplistic. If I understand all of this correctly, there is no toe in adjustment or camber/caster. The kingpin is also running parallel to the wheel.
The steering should function as is, but there is room for improvement.
I now view these plans as guidelines. I think much is left to the builders discretion.
I have plans for the BB that I hope to get drawn up soon and posted as N55 has provided no detail there.
Good luck with your build, I hope to be watching.
George

[TexasTuiff]

It was only after I made the above post that I noticed the date of your last post. You may not still be active on this build. I hope you were able to finish.
Just a note about the steering. As you can see in this picture from the wheel position that the geometry of the steering does work.

George

[jeremyb]

Hi all, anyone figured out the bottom bracket mounting dilemma? I actually wonder if they tap the ally plate and just screw the bottom bracket into it?

[dockenny]

Hi,
I just joined the forum. I am thinking about building the N55, downloaded the drawings about 6 months ago. The bottom bracket has had me stumped as well. I have an aluminum frame donor bike and have thought about having the bottom shell welded to a couple aluminum plates to bolt into place but would like to here what solutions others have come up with.
Kenny

[Poiter]

Hi,
I just joined the forum. I am thinking about building the N55, downloaded the drawings about 6 months ago. The bottom bracket has had me stumped as well. I have an aluminum frame donor bike and have thought about having the bottom shell welded to a couple aluminum plates to bolt into place but would like to here what solutions others have come up with.
Kenny

Welding the plates on would work but will probably distort the threads in the BB shell, but they would be easily cleaned up with teh right taps from a bike shop.
Pete

[jeremyb]

I wonder, if once the BB cups are installed it would hold the bottom bracket shell tight enough between the side plates so it doesn't move?

[shs2_de]

Hello,
this is my first post her, but I saw, that some of you struggling with the same I issues I had.
I posted in a German Forum my projects
- a one seater ( finished)
- a 3- seater , almost finished including a front axis suspension

based of the xyz spaceframe vehicles from Till Wolfer and N55.dk

The complete thread is here:




http://www.velomobilforum.de/forum/show ... me-vehicle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry it,s German, but just follow the embedded links for all detail photos, videos etc.




Here are the most essential links:
1 seater:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1012409348 ... directlink

[youtube]http|//www.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3dgY7bEmk1Q&ei=quL3UP3TEsTjtQa7v4HABg&usg=AFQjCNGOoHsEEQ_8T3orgaY40gDgfFq9tQ&bvm=bv.41018144,d.Yms[/youtube]


3-seater and front suspension

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jynk9lwfgj25o ... sitzer.avi

https://picasaweb.google.com/1012409348 ... directlink

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9vmnew11seu3m ... rachse.avi


I will update the photos on a regular basis

Have fun Stephan ( Germany)

[John Lewis]

Hello Stephan,
Welcome.
That is an interesting tricycle that you have built. I should say tricycles. more than one.
It certainly is a neat way to build for one who may not have access to welding. What did the single seat machine weigh?

It seems you have E assist. Is it fitted at the bottom bracket? It looks a bit that way but I'm not sure. I would like to know a little more about the assist if it is indeed one that works in that way.
I am going to pass the links on to a friend who was asking about bolt together construction.

Thanks for posting.

John

[shs2_de]

Hi John,

yes, both of my trikes / tricycles are e- supported, following the German law for Pedelecs.
250w / must cycle to get support / support only below 25 km/h /

For the pedelec components I bought a brandnew china Bike with rear motor in the bottom bracket.
http://www.actionbikes.de/products/E-Bi ... allic.html
The whole bike was cheaper as single components like Motor, battery, PAS Sensor, controller, display brake handles etc.

Eventually my wife got a new bike, since I added the missing components for that bike as well - but not e- supported.

The frame weight is approx 9 to 10 kg, the whole trike is 29 kg incl battery ( that's only 2kg more than the China bike had). so I guess without e- support, 20 kg for the one-seater is realistic.

Best Regards
Stephan