Campagnolo Track Development

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Campagnolo Track Development

Postby brentono » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:27 pm

Was going over a Campagnolo Track Development Sprocket I got my hands on back in the early 1970's
A 14T that weighs 13.7-8grams and was under the impression it was Titanium, but now I'm not certain.
Seems to be too light, and where it was very slightly worn through use, it was polished to mirror finish.
(can't see polished mirror finish in these photos, but it's where the normal chain contact would be)
The modern average for P.W. 14T in Hardened stainless steel is 41.7grams.
http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/phil-wood-track-cog.html
So if anyone has any ideas of what the materials would be, wears well, is it possible Titanium/ceramic?
Seems Campagnolo were on to something, that didn't seem to get to retail (expensive maybe?)

Here's some photos...
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by BNA » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:45 pm

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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby sogood » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:45 pm

Brentono is a weightweenie? :shock:
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:54 pm

Brentono, if it's that light, it would be aluminium. I don't think I've ever seen Ti oxidized to that sort of colour. It's probably very good Al (7075, for example), which has been heat treated and then anodized.
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:08 pm

I'm pretty sure it was an aloy one. Trying to make the brain cells jell together and if I remember correctly both Shimano and Campagnolo
had aloy ones out then. I think Shimano had grey ones and I have one or did somewhere. :mrgreen:

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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby brentono » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:54 am

Thanks guys.
The info I was given was that Titanium was involved, so alloy with possibly Al 7075.
It is actually heavy matt coated (like a powder coat) and the metal below is silver white.
Great wearing, and no resemblance to normal Al wear, as said a ceramic mirror shine finish.
Someone might have recollected Campag Development of the time.

weightweenie :lol: The only WW that I know of that period was E.M. for his "Hour Record"
and this may have been developed for Eddy Merckx by Campagnolo.

Cheers
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:07 am

You can have a Ti-Al alloy and you can put a ceramic coating on the outside of it (they do it on some rims, for example) and that ceramic could be Ti-Nitride, so all of the guesses so far may be correct to some degree. If you cut it in half and examined the cross section you'd know.

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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby brentono » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:52 am

David
Thanks for that, and think we are getting quite close.
It was advanced stuff in the early 70's, and probably come a long way now.
Thought someone reading might remember the actual technical
Development of these alloys at Campagnolo, at the time, it was just a try.
Won't be cutting it up, it's a rarity, AFAIK.
Cheers
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby rkelsen » Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:55 pm

I think your case warrants an email to Signor Campagnolo directly.
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby brentono » Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:55 pm

rkelsen wrote:I think your case warrants an email to Signor Campagnolo directly.


Is that Tullio-at-heaven-dot-com. :|
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:03 pm

brentono wrote:weightweenie :lol: The only WW that I know of that period was E.M. for his "Hour Record"
and this may have been developed for Eddy Merckx by Campagnolo.

Interesting cog.

The irony of Merckx's hour record bike is that it would not pass current UCI regulations for the hour record.
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:54 pm

Why is that Alex?

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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby brentono » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:19 pm

Hour-Record- It's actually post-ironic, that this many years after Merckx, there has been so few
"real" attempts, and those that have attempted, have been so minimally more successful.
It only goes to show, "it's not about the bike"... it's about the rider. IMO.

Suffice to say...
The Hour-Record is truly a test, and with all the manner of scientific advances, a hard test to pass.
Alex, would you not say Eddy was truely a hard man, and a great champion,
and set a hard task for any person, for an hour's riding around a Track
(coming from your own experience)
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby rkelsen » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:43 pm

brentono wrote:Is that Tullio-at-heaven-dot-com. :|

By the time that cog was made, Valentino was already working in the business. Even if he can't remember, then surely he would have access to records?
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby rkelsen » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:46 pm

foo on patrol wrote:Why is that Alex?

I might be wrong, but I think it's too light. It was something like 5.5kg?
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby brentono » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:48 pm

rkelsen wrote:
brentono wrote:Is that Tullio-at-heaven-dot-com. :|

By the time that cog was made, Valentino was already working in the business. Even if he can't remember, then surely he would have access to records?


From what I know, I think Valentino was studying Economics at that time.
And never at any stage had any involvement in R&D.
And as for records, if you were there around at the time, you'd understand, it's in Tullio's head.
May as well 'ave just asked him (Tullio) in the seventies, when I met him, if I had of thought of it.
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:28 pm

brentono wrote:Hour-Record- It's actually post-ironic, that this many years after Merckx, there has been so few
"real" attempts, and those that have attempted, have been so minimally more successful.
It only goes to show, "it's not about the bike"... it's about the rider. IMO.

Suffice to say...
The Hour-Record is truly a test, and with all the manner of scientific advances, a hard test to pass.
Alex, would you not say Eddy was truely a hard man, and a great champion,
and set a hard task for any person, for an hour's riding around a Track

It wasn't a comment on Merckx (the greatest ever). It was a comment on the UCI. I blame the UCI for reducing its interest and significance in the eyes of professional riders.

All their effort to enforce equipment requirements on the hour record by stipulating a return to Merckx's "standard" bike, when Merckx's bike didn't meet their own standard. I think that's ironic.

Having coached a rider to a master's age hour record, I'm pretty familiar with the challenge.
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:32 pm

rkelsen wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:Why is that Alex?

I might be wrong, but I think it's too light. It was something like 5.5kg?

Yeah, it was somewhat less that the UCI's minimum bike weight requirement. Not that bike mass means much for such an event.
It's all about power to aero drag ratio, reducing other resistance forces (air density and rolling resistance in particular) and superb pacing.
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby brentono » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:16 pm

Alex,
It was a good point, about the UCI, and only indicative of how "in touch" they were at the time.
(or should I say... out of touch)
And the posted photo (for those that read the fine print), indicates the efforts Campagnolo went to
assisting Merckx, at the time... that was my point on the bike.
Think we are in agreeance about "the greatest" and the insignificance of the actual weight of the bike,
and I think we both understand what is required to master "The Hour"... and much of it is psychological.
(interesting point on Moser-
The veteran's record set by Moser in 1994 was faster than his more celebrated record in 1984,
when he used a bullhorn handlebar, steel airfoil tubing, disk wheels and skinsuit... and off the sauce.)
Takes a lot of preparation, as you are aware, and would take someone very committed, these days.
"superb pacing"... sure, and to keep it going, and totally expend it at the final minutes of the Hour.
Out of interest, what distance did your participant do?
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby alex » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:46 pm

the AIS have spent a lot of time and money over the years on treatments and coatings for chains/chainrings/cogs

maybe it is an ex-AIS cog that went through these treatments, as they used campagnolo for many many years

i remember an article i read some time ago that they were completely dismantling track chains, having them 'treated' (presumably ti-nitride) and then re-assembled...
if i get killed while out on my bike i dont want a 'memorial ride' by random punters i have never met.
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby brentono » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:56 pm

Definitely not an AIS cog.
As I said, had it and used it in the early 1970's.
(At that Stage the Govt. did Jack for Cyclists... AIS didn't even involve Cycling till 1987)
Cheers
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby ausrandoman » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:41 pm

brentono wrote:Was going over a Campagnolo Track Development Sprocket I got my hands on back in the early 1970's
A 14T that weighs 13.7-8grams and was under the impression it was Titanium, but now I'm not certain.
Seems to be too light, and where it was very slightly worn through use, it was polished to mirror finish.
(can't see polished mirror finish in these photos, but it's where the normal chain contact would be)
The modern average for P.W. 14T in Hardened stainless steel is 41.7grams.
http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/phil-wood-track-cog.html
So if anyone has any ideas of what the materials would be, wears well, is it possible Titanium/ceramic?


I'll take a stab at it. Assuming that there is not much difference in the dimensions of 14 tooth cogs (and there can't be much difference), the ratio of weights would be the same as the ratio of the densities.

Stainless steel is about to 8.0 grams per cubic centimetre. Aluminium is 2.7 and titanium is 4.5. So, if a stainless steel cog weighs 41.7 grams, a titanium cog would weigh about 23 grams and an aluminium cog would weigh about 14 grams.*

Like bigfriendlyvegan, I reckon it is probably aluminium.

*No point in calculating the decimal places for a rough estimate.
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Re: Campagnolo Track Development

Postby brentono » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:25 am

Thanks ausrandoman, for your input.
Have done a bit more research, from the period and Dura-ace was released around the time
(and possibly, as with Zeus, Campagnolo and Shimano may have also been trading technologies.)
A Dura-ace 14x Sprocket is quoted to be Chromium Molybdenum and has a similar weight.
Don't know how that material would rate with the densities.
Also have found Ti/Moly Sprockets were used in competition motorsport sprockets of the time.
So much was available, at the time. Could have been any or all of the above.
Cheers
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