"Bad Experience" ... wouldn't recommend this LBS

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"Bad Experience" ... wouldn't recommend this LBS

Postby destorman » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:56 pm

OK, as you'll see, the second of a theme ...

Now, before everyone starts to panic about legal action or spreading a bad 'rap about a shop, remember this, if it's true, and someone else may suffer, you have no legal issue to worry about.

Plus, if someone else has had a good experience, they can post under that thread and users of this forum can make up their own mind ...

Simple, just a matter of giving the power to the consumer.

Oh, and BTW, watch how a 'bad' LBS may suddenly change their service when a public forum like this is shown to them !!!
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by BNA » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:07 pm

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Postby sogood » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:07 pm

A good and a bad list would eventually get populated by every LBS in the country. Different people and different experiences. It's like finding a partner, you just have to find the one that works for you. :wink:
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Postby Kalgrm » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:15 pm

Destorman,

I'm not sure how long this thread will remain open.

It's one thing to be recommending good LBSs, but we could be adjudged liable for spreading "untrue" accusations about commercial interests. One buyer's "bad experience" could be claimed as industry standard service by the owner of the LBS.

In addition, we never know the full story when one person tells us their LBS is hopeless. There is always another side to that story.

So, please don't be offended if this thread gets locked.

Cheers,
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It's called censorship ...

Postby destorman » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:09 pm

If the thread gets closed for those reasons, it is censorship.

Sorry, but in legal terms, it's very very simple. If it is true, and and geniune experience then the LBS can not do anything about it. Sure, they may want details from the site operators about the person who writes the -ve post, but the site can ONLY give the same details as what any member of the public can get ... it's called privacy laws for a reason.

As I've said, I've seen this on other forums ... actually the truth is I saw it on a couple, and have since started several on other forums I use. They are invaluable tools for all users, but especially newbies starting out.

Each user can then judge the post on it's merits.

And conversely, if someone, or many people, have a good experience with the same LBS they have the ability to post the +ve version, and again, users of the forum can make up their own mind.

Simple, and without CENSORSHIP ... that is what it is legally called when a thread is closed on the grounds suggested.

I look forward to a long and enduring thread which many others can use for their own benefit.
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Postby destorman » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:14 pm

sogood wrote:A good and a bad list would eventually get populated by every LBS in the country.


That's why I thought there were controls over the sign up and posting process ...

Besides, it won't take long for them to be obvious, and in the end they do themselves no favours ...

As I've posted, this is done on other forums with great benefits for the users.

If it's taken in the same spirit as other forums, you'll see people post +ve and hold back on the -ve until or unless there are really bad issues.

Look at whirlpool forum for IT issues, that +ve and -ve experience rating process is so strong companies live and die by it ... and manage their customer service based upon it.
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Postby Kalgrm » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:42 pm

destorman wrote:
sogood wrote:A good and a bad list would eventually get populated by every LBS in the country.


That's why I thought there were controls over the sign up and posting process ...

What sogood is saying is that there are good and bad stories about every LBS in the country, so each would show up in both lists over time.
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Re: It's called censorship ...

Postby RainForeverRain » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:13 pm

"Sorry, but in legal terms, it's very very simple. If it is true, and and geniune experience then the LBS can not do anything about it."

The terms 'Legal' and 'very very simple' do not go together in my experience. Basically if the plaintif (the LBS) can prove defamation then the defendant has to choose from a limited set of defenses of which justification or truth is one.

The laws on defamation vary a bit from state to state in Australia despite attempts to unify them but if the offending posts tend to lower the plaintif in the estimation of the community then that's probably enough to prove defamation.

The plaintif doesn't have to prove that the posts actually caused financial harm or even that the posts are untrue. Defamatory publications are presumed to be false, so the onus is on the defendant to prove that the post was true. Do you see where we are heading with this?

I don'who the named defendant would be - the poster or possibly the moderators come to mind, but it would be a pain in the arse and probably quite expensive for anyone who ended up in the cross-hairs.

And that's if they win.
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Re: It's called censorship ...

Postby Hawkeye » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:14 pm

destorman wrote:If the thread gets closed for those reasons, it is censorship.

Sorry, but in legal terms, it's very very simple. ...



Oh really? Let me explain it in words of two syllables or less: Nothing is ever simple when lawyers get involved. It is, however, almost always expensive.

While you are hiding behind yoru precious privacy, the site owner and the ISP get sued for defamation because they can be readily identified.

Sure, they might win and get awarded costs, but in the meantime they bear an enormous emotional and financial burden, not to mention the distraction from more important activities like managing a career/business and bringing up a family.

The site owners offer this forum for our benefit, not so they can become targets. Consequently, you don't get to set the rules: they do. If they want to pull down any posts or otherwise censor what gets posted, it is entirely their right ... unless you are prepared to give a first mortgage over your house to them as a surety against them getting sued for anything you may post.

What?... not a taker on that one? How surprising. :roll:
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Postby Kalgrm » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:33 pm

If you think this society is one without censorship, you better stop believing everything you don't read. ;)

It's very easy to start a forum destorman. Simply pay for a domain name, get a hosting company for your web site, install phpBB (it's free) and let the world know you're open for business. Then wait for the the defamatory claims to start rolling in, knowing that you are responsible for any legal action taken by aggrieved subjects of the topics discussed.

Let us know how you get on, and tell us if you ever feel like censoring the things people post in your name.

Alternatively, you can join another person's forum and agree to live by the rules they impose for their own financial security. It may be censorship, but then again, it might just be prudence.

Cheers,
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Postby stryker84 » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:35 pm

I don't care about any "legal" implications or otherwise, I just ain't gonna badmouth any shop, whether I've had good experience or not. How'd that adage go again: "If you ain't got nothing nice to say..." ? Someone else may've had a good experience, or it may've been a bad day, or (perish the thought) it may just be me who's a pain to deal with!

I'll happily post in the other thread about good shops, so if you like, you can work by omission and figure out the not-so-good ones, by my opinion at least.

Actually, on second thoughts, here's a bad bike shop - KMart.
Variable service staff, terrible fit/setup, dirt-cheap (read: heavy/flimsy/ugly) componentry. 99% biased to BMX/hardtails. No maintenance offered. Although in their favour, occasional outstanding deals on minor accessories, like Spokey Dokes and streamers, or the odd patch kit and tube.
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Postby biftek » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:57 pm

defamation and forums , read up on 2clix vs whirlpool*net.au , whirlpool came under legal action for publishing comments the company alleges are “false and malicious” while it was dropped it could still cause some trouble at this joint
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Postby Kalgrm » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:05 pm

biftek wrote:bicycles network Australia had better make a decision on this unless they want to go down the same path as whirlpool*net.au did with 2Clix, whirlpool came under legal action for publishing comments the company alleges are “false and malicious” while it was dropped it could still cause some trouble at this joint

Biftek, so far nobody has posted any allegations about bike stores. It's just been a discussion on the merits or otherwise of doing so. It looks like the members here recognise the danger to the forum posed by threads like this. Having the discussion out in the open is a good thing, in my opinion.

While I've only been a moderator for a day, I dare say the other moderators are going to keep a close eye on this thread. My guess is that if something gets posted that may be seen as defamatory, it will be removed. That's why I warned destorman of the possible outcome early on.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Postby gsxrboy » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:08 pm

I bought a balsa wood racer bike (speked with Duralight 299 shimmies) from "Kalgrms Bike-o-rama" cause he said it was light as anyfink and soopa fast. it broke when I took it over the humungous woopeydoodles while doing me E.Kenevel at 25metre high.

Dodgy bikestore if you ask me !
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Postby Deanj » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:36 pm

Just after I got back into cycling, I found this forum and started posting, I'm glad there wasn't a thread like the one requested here. I'd been round a fair few shops looking at bikes, one of these I told myself I wouldn't go back there after getting bad service twice.

While looking at purchasing a MTB a couple of months later, I actually did a few 50km round trips past this shop, to go and look at bikes that they actually stocked. A few weeks ago, while the Mrs was at the library, I went against what I'd said in the past and went to this shop to waste a bit of time (the Mrs takes ages choosing books :roll: ).

I was only looking, but a guy was there that had not served me in the past, he was friendly and helpfull, I'd of been happy to buy a bike from him.

So what would a thread knocking bad service have acheived? I'd of moaned about how rubbish they were and how not to go there, and I could of put a few people off from going and having a pleasurable buying experience. If you get bad service, and the shop is local give it another chance. However the next time you go in there walk towards a different sales person. If no luck after a few visits find anther shop. There are lots of shops in SA that I can get bad service, but I can also get very good service at that same shop by knowing who to ask when I want some advice.

The best thing I can think of, is if you want a re commendation for a shop, just ask, theres many helpfull people here I'm positive will be happy to mention 1 or 2 and also tell you who to speak too.
Last edited by Deanj on Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mulger bill » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:33 pm

IMO, word of mouth is the best form of advertising for positive OR negative. If a shop rips me off on prices or stated/delivered servicing, people will hear about it. Problem with bagging an LBS based on service is it's very subjective. How many of us have had some prat in a shop sneer at them because we weren't part of "their" tribe. Would I bag a shop for the one moron with an attitude? Only if the whole shop was that way.

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Postby AUbicycles » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:03 pm

Hi Guys,

I am going to lock this thread. This has been discussed before and although I am happy to discuss it again I would like a little bit of time to look into this and will get back.

The biggest problem is liability - Do I avoid this entirely by not allowing these types of comments or is there a solution. I realise that this is censorship however I would be personally liable for comments which are not my own (plus have to take the time if issues arise). And.. this forum is censored anyway ie. for a General Audience which means no bad word, bad images, spam and abuse ... as a result we have a pretty healthy forum which works well for the vast majority... incl. newbies and long term members.

Let me have a look into this and see if there is a way we can solve this. PM me if you have any specific suggestion regarding the legals of it.

Cheers
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