Hillman road frame
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Hillman road frame
Postby kukamunga » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:53 am
Ok. Here is the Hillman frame I picked up a couple of weeks ago (and mentioned near end of this thread):-
Frame came pretty much as you see, minus a few 'Suntour' cable guides and clamp-on down tube shifters. Interesting 'Zeus' seatpost (26.6mm - see seperate post)
There are quite a few scraped, scratched and 'touched-up' areas of paintwork where cable guides and shifters were mounted. There is a slight 'ding' on LHS of down tube near BB, but otherwise straight
Nice headtube. Frame has a few similarities (including size) to my 'Wentworth'. Decals appear to be handpainted
Benelux 'REGDDESIGN' 'CLO' (?) rear dropouts. Unthreaded hanger requires special nut (Kid?)
Fork tips the same or very similar as 'Wentworth' (must get a tripod for my camera!)
Bottom bracket with standard 'British/ I.S.O' thread. This is also very similar to Wentworth, with '84 ?' cast on bottom
My writing indicates ~weight of frame alone (2.2kg); with fork & incomplete headset (+800gm = 3.1kg); + seatpost (300gm)
I have emailed Hillman Cycles to ask them about the frame, but it appears that I may have to phone or pay them a visit. They have been around and making frames here in Melbourne for over 60 years. I think this frame may be from the late 50's.
I may strip down the Wentworth soon to clean it up and check BB threads, dimensions etc., then decide on which frame to keep! The Wentworth would make a better geared bike as it has most of the necessary brazed-on cable guides. The Hillman might just make a nice single-speeder!
Frame came pretty much as you see, minus a few 'Suntour' cable guides and clamp-on down tube shifters. Interesting 'Zeus' seatpost (26.6mm - see seperate post)
There are quite a few scraped, scratched and 'touched-up' areas of paintwork where cable guides and shifters were mounted. There is a slight 'ding' on LHS of down tube near BB, but otherwise straight
Nice headtube. Frame has a few similarities (including size) to my 'Wentworth'. Decals appear to be handpainted
Benelux 'REGDDESIGN' 'CLO' (?) rear dropouts. Unthreaded hanger requires special nut (Kid?)
Fork tips the same or very similar as 'Wentworth' (must get a tripod for my camera!)
Bottom bracket with standard 'British/ I.S.O' thread. This is also very similar to Wentworth, with '84 ?' cast on bottom
My writing indicates ~weight of frame alone (2.2kg); with fork & incomplete headset (+800gm = 3.1kg); + seatpost (300gm)
I have emailed Hillman Cycles to ask them about the frame, but it appears that I may have to phone or pay them a visit. They have been around and making frames here in Melbourne for over 60 years. I think this frame may be from the late 50's.
I may strip down the Wentworth soon to clean it up and check BB threads, dimensions etc., then decide on which frame to keep! The Wentworth would make a better geared bike as it has most of the necessary brazed-on cable guides. The Hillman might just make a nice single-speeder!
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Postby GaryF » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:49 pm
I just like Hillmans - well built, honest and reliable frames built for a purpose - to race.
Yours is a very nice example - interesting lugwork and dropouts. Talking with the Hills over the years, I think function is far more important to them than looks - the frames had to work. For example, the paint colour was Henry Hills favourite colour because it was the most visible colour on a 'bad' day.
Yours is a very nice example - interesting lugwork and dropouts. Talking with the Hills over the years, I think function is far more important to them than looks - the frames had to work. For example, the paint colour was Henry Hills favourite colour because it was the most visible colour on a 'bad' day.
- Kid_Carbine
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:06 pm
The lettering on my fork end [dropout] has the words "Benelux Regd Design" on the right side & "Benelux Cyclo" on the left.kukamunga wrote:
Benelux 'REGDDESIGN' 'CLO' (?) rear dropouts. Unthreaded hanger requires special nut (Kid?)
The 'special nut' will probably be a part of the derailleur, however my candidates for fitment here are equiped with their own mounting bracket & in order to use it, surgical removal of this dropout mounting would be necessary, ... something I am not prepared to do, so I will continue to scrounge untill I come up with something suitable.
I have a new French Cyclo 3 speed derailleur complete & this is a possibility, but would prefer to use one of my Simplex Tour de France units [not possible] or a proper English Cyclo Benelux derailleur.
I have a Cyclo Benelux 5 speed on my early 50's 'Olympic' road racer [Ray Pantlin, Guilford in Sydney] but it's a complete original bike & I don't want to rob it for parts.
Perhaps I will find a suitable Cyclo Benelux chain gear mech. for it in the near future.
I have a couple of new English Cyclo 3 speed freewheels but would prefer to use my Regina 4 speed. Only cutting edge technology used here ya know
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
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Postby stevendavid75 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:16 am
Hi kukamunga,
Just wondering if you got my PM.
Cheers
Steve
Just wondering if you got my PM.
Cheers
Steve
- WyvernRH
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Postby WyvernRH » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:59 am
[quote]
Benelux 'REGDDESIGN' 'CLO' (?) rear dropouts. Unthreaded hanger requires special nut (Kid?)
###
The 'special nut' will probably be a part of the derailleur, however my candidates for fitment here are equiped with their own mounting bracket & in order to use it, surgical removal of this dropout mounting would be necessary, ... something I am not prepared to do, so I will continue to scrounge untill I come up with something suitable.
[quote]
Quite right, the attachment bolt for the Benelux/Cyclo derailleur will fit this dropout.. possibly....I have several of these gears of varying ages in my derailler collection and a couple on bikes. All of the gear hangers, including the "built in" dropout hangers on the bikes are threaded requiring the deralleur bolt to be wound in and then locked by another nut on the back of the dropout - very fiddly! The catch is I have found three different threads on bolts and dropouts only one of which matches the current standard thread.
It may be this problem which has caused nearly everyone I have seen over here in Oz to have the thread removed. Also, this example has been modified for a Campag/Huret gear with a "stop notch" being cut into the hanger. This was a popular way to upgrade to more modern gears, in which case you would also need to re-thread to standard or get rid of the thread in the dropout and use a locknut on the back (seen this done a lot! Bicycle mechanics/owners tend not to be subtle chaps at times...) The Benelux gear design did not need a notch as the limiter was built into the gear.
So, IMHO what you have here is a hanger for a Benelux Mk 5/7 racing gear that has been modded to take a more modern gear later in life. Note that Simplex gears also did not need the stop notch, so it wasn't an upgrade to Simplex and you can work out from the position of the notch if the mod was for a Huret or a Campag gear as the notch postion is different (assuming the modder did it right )
Kid, I may have a spare mk7 Benelux in my collection to swap, let me know if you are interested.
Cheers
Richard
Benelux 'REGDDESIGN' 'CLO' (?) rear dropouts. Unthreaded hanger requires special nut (Kid?)
###
The 'special nut' will probably be a part of the derailleur, however my candidates for fitment here are equiped with their own mounting bracket & in order to use it, surgical removal of this dropout mounting would be necessary, ... something I am not prepared to do, so I will continue to scrounge untill I come up with something suitable.
[quote]
Quite right, the attachment bolt for the Benelux/Cyclo derailleur will fit this dropout.. possibly....I have several of these gears of varying ages in my derailler collection and a couple on bikes. All of the gear hangers, including the "built in" dropout hangers on the bikes are threaded requiring the deralleur bolt to be wound in and then locked by another nut on the back of the dropout - very fiddly! The catch is I have found three different threads on bolts and dropouts only one of which matches the current standard thread.
It may be this problem which has caused nearly everyone I have seen over here in Oz to have the thread removed. Also, this example has been modified for a Campag/Huret gear with a "stop notch" being cut into the hanger. This was a popular way to upgrade to more modern gears, in which case you would also need to re-thread to standard or get rid of the thread in the dropout and use a locknut on the back (seen this done a lot! Bicycle mechanics/owners tend not to be subtle chaps at times...) The Benelux gear design did not need a notch as the limiter was built into the gear.
So, IMHO what you have here is a hanger for a Benelux Mk 5/7 racing gear that has been modded to take a more modern gear later in life. Note that Simplex gears also did not need the stop notch, so it wasn't an upgrade to Simplex and you can work out from the position of the notch if the mod was for a Huret or a Campag gear as the notch postion is different (assuming the modder did it right )
Kid, I may have a spare mk7 Benelux in my collection to swap, let me know if you are interested.
Cheers
Richard
- Kid_Carbine
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:29 am
RichardWyvernRH wrote:Benelux 'REGDDESIGN' 'CLO' (?) rear dropouts. Unthreaded hanger requires special nut (Kid?)
Quite right, the attachment bolt for the Benelux/Cyclo derailleur will fit this dropout.. possibly....I have several of these gears of varying ages in my derailler collection and a couple on bikes. All of the gear hangers, including the "built in" dropout hangers on the bikes are threaded requiring the deralleur bolt to be wound in and then locked by another nut on the back of the dropout - very fiddly!
Kid, I may have a spare mk7 Benelux in my collection to swap, let me know if you are interested.
Cheers
Richard
I have just examined my Cyclo dropout with a magnifier & I found no evidence whatsoever to suggest that it had ever been threaded in the dérailleur mounting hole.In fact, the hole does not even appear to have been drilled, but punched out during the manufacturing process.
This would suggest that the dérailleur used a shouldered bolt that was secured on the inside with a nut & it would have been original equipment with the dérailleur.
It's possible, I suppose, that the Hilman frame uses a newer version of the dropout & this may account for the variation. Cyclo didn't close it's doors untill the year 2000 so anything's possible.
Thank you for the offer to trade, ... you have a PM from me.
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
- Kid_Carbine
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:12 pm
Of course the English Rose is nice but Italia knows how to satisfy a mans appetites. I go all Gnutti over delicious Magistroni. Mmmmm best enjoyed with white wine & a hot tart.
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:14 am
And that reason is, ......?
Keep in mind that, as long as the frame is worth it, ... it can be repaired, such is the beauty of steel, unlike those other inferior materials that they use nowdays.
Interesting to note that some of the most beautiful & ornate lugwork came into being in the immediate pre war & on up to the late 50's period. Lugs gave great strength, & for some, even greater beauty. Ahhhhhh the Late 40's & 50's, may they never end.
I just realised that this frame has what looks to be a serial number on the chainstay socket on the right of picture.
My Whippet frame that uses the same Cyclo rear tips as this frame also has a number in this location & aligned the same way with the same character sizes. It reads A277, possibly A2771 but the '1' is so indistinct that it may be a manufacturing mark.
My B/B shell does not have the three characters cast in as this one does.
Two strong but unusual similarities, ... Hmmmmmmm.
Keep in mind that, as long as the frame is worth it, ... it can be repaired, such is the beauty of steel, unlike those other inferior materials that they use nowdays.
Interesting to note that some of the most beautiful & ornate lugwork came into being in the immediate pre war & on up to the late 50's period. Lugs gave great strength, & for some, even greater beauty. Ahhhhhh the Late 40's & 50's, may they never end.
I just realised that this frame has what looks to be a serial number on the chainstay socket on the right of picture.
My Whippet frame that uses the same Cyclo rear tips as this frame also has a number in this location & aligned the same way with the same character sizes. It reads A277, possibly A2771 but the '1' is so indistinct that it may be a manufacturing mark.
My B/B shell does not have the three characters cast in as this one does.
Two strong but unusual similarities, ... Hmmmmmmm.
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
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Postby kukamunga » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:23 pm
Did discover a possible reason why the frame was thrown out though.......
.....or this Apollo III frame.....
(any hope for these frames?)
.....but the tell-tale damaged paint on the Hillman should have indicated to me a lot earlier..... (just have to upload photo......) [/size]
Well, it's nowhere as obvious as this unfortunate 2.25kg Shogun chromoly frame.....Kid_Carbine wrote:And that reason is, ......?
.....or this Apollo III frame.....
(any hope for these frames?)
.....but the tell-tale damaged paint on the Hillman should have indicated to me a lot earlier..... (just have to upload photo......) [/size]
Last edited by kukamunga on Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Kid_Carbine
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:56 pm
The Wentworth uses the same chainstay bridge, or brace, as does my Whippet.
Both the Shogun & the Apollo can be repaired, but I would suggest that the Apollo is really worth scrap value & little more, going on the design of the bottom bracket & from the ornate lugwork that we can see.
As for the Shogun, it would seem that while it is repairable, one must ask, is it 'economically' repairable.
Lets face it, the Shogun doesn't seem to have much going for it. It was not a custom frame, made from Reynolds 531 d/b tubing or other, even better quality Reynolds tube, built in a dingy little shed behind a one store bike shop by an artisan who took pride in his top quality workmanship.
Nor is it an antique classic. In the end, it's just another Kelvinator. [mass produced whitegoods]
It has potential, but, in my limited view, the money would most likely be better spent on something both undamaged, & interesting.
Just an opinion.
Both the Shogun & the Apollo can be repaired, but I would suggest that the Apollo is really worth scrap value & little more, going on the design of the bottom bracket & from the ornate lugwork that we can see.
As for the Shogun, it would seem that while it is repairable, one must ask, is it 'economically' repairable.
Lets face it, the Shogun doesn't seem to have much going for it. It was not a custom frame, made from Reynolds 531 d/b tubing or other, even better quality Reynolds tube, built in a dingy little shed behind a one store bike shop by an artisan who took pride in his top quality workmanship.
Nor is it an antique classic. In the end, it's just another Kelvinator. [mass produced whitegoods]
It has potential, but, in my limited view, the money would most likely be better spent on something both undamaged, & interesting.
Just an opinion.
Last edited by Kid_Carbine on Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
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Postby kukamunga » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:04 am
The Apollo is 'Made in Japan', of hi-tensile steel I believe, with Kuwuhara dropouts/ fork tips and headset, and SHIMANO cable guides on that BB. The 'candy-apple red' paint job, logos, badges and headset look nice, and the forks could be useful.....
The Shogun (made in Taiwan/ China I guess?) is double butted chromoly, and would've been a nice frame.....
But enough diversionary tactics and back to the real topic. The Hillman photo has finally uploaded! .....
DOH!
I'll talk to Gordon Hill soon and see what he thinks. One of the other Hillman staff didn't seem to think it was a Hillman frame at all when I took it in the other day, because of the Benelux dropouts and serial # (3950). Will have to wait and see
The Shogun (made in Taiwan/ China I guess?) is double butted chromoly, and would've been a nice frame.....
But enough diversionary tactics and back to the real topic. The Hillman photo has finally uploaded! .....
DOH!
I'll talk to Gordon Hill soon and see what he thinks. One of the other Hillman staff didn't seem to think it was a Hillman frame at all when I took it in the other day, because of the Benelux dropouts and serial # (3950). Will have to wait and see
- Kid_Carbine
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:45 am
Well the Shogun would have been a very nice ride before the, ..... well, before.
Good tube quality, but unfortunately thin tube does tend to take it a bit harder in a crash. I presume that the forks are also unserviceable, so replacements would be needed. Fixable, but is it worth it? Wall hanger perhaps?
The crack in the Hilman is a mere inconvenience to a competant frame builder who would have that tube replaced in under an hour.
If the crack had been allowed to propagate & the tube eventually break then the top tube would need replacement as well.
In my view, keeping in mind that only one tube requires replacement & the forks are good, that this one is a fixy.
It would then need paint, but it doesn't have the original 50's paint with all it's lovely pinstriping anyway so an original paint job will not be lost.
Good tube quality, but unfortunately thin tube does tend to take it a bit harder in a crash. I presume that the forks are also unserviceable, so replacements would be needed. Fixable, but is it worth it? Wall hanger perhaps?
The crack in the Hilman is a mere inconvenience to a competant frame builder who would have that tube replaced in under an hour.
If the crack had been allowed to propagate & the tube eventually break then the top tube would need replacement as well.
In my view, keeping in mind that only one tube requires replacement & the forks are good, that this one is a fixy.
It would then need paint, but it doesn't have the original 50's paint with all it's lovely pinstriping anyway so an original paint job will not be lost.
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
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