Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby beauyboy » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/2010%20L ... y_full.pdf
The BCC has just released a new active transport strategy. It is currently open to consultation.
The thing is only 16pages and of that over half is pictures :roll: . Please remember to respond to this because what response will dictate how the council will react.

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by BNA » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:08 pm

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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Rhubarb » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:08 pm

That report states cycling is currently 1.6% of trips with a target to increase this to 5% of trips within 15 years.

Am I the only one who thinks that is a terribly low target?

The Netherlands have achieved something like 30-50% of short trips by bicycle in 30 years and whilst those numbers sound high for Brisbane, I still think 5% is a very low number to be shooting for with 15 years to get there !!!!

A target of 20% would have indicated to me that they were planning a lot more infrastructure investment, which is basically all that you need to get a lot more people cycling. Percieved safety I think is the biggest inhibiter to cycle commuting.

More and more are seeing the light on their own and things like Cadel winning TDF, GreenEdge coming in, etc are only going to help the rise of the sport of cycling in Australia. Along with this will be recreational and utility cycling.

Frankly, I think they'd hit 5% in 15 years if they did nothing. I hope thats not what they are planning.
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Gabe » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:05 am

I think you're taking things waaaaaaaay out of context. The Netherlands is well-suited to cycling in terms of terrain (it's flat), town layouts, climate, distances, and cultural attitude. Brisbane is spread out across a massive area, town planning has been poor, the heat of summer is ridiculously intense, many places are incredibly hilly, and cycling is seen as something that you take seriously rather than just something people do. And the last point is actually partly the fault of cyclists.
I love cycling but there's no way in hell I would ride the 25km up and down hills and in heavy traffic, especially in summer, to get to the city from where I live. Even riding around the city isn't the easiest thing, there just isn't very much space. The central part of the city is squashed into a tiny area while greater brisbane is all over the place, so getting to the city is often a mission but the when you're there you don't have the space to ride around freely. I support any effort for infrastructure that makes cycling easier and more viable, but I also see things realistically. And I have to say, it's not neccessarily a bad thing that cycling isn't huge over here. Imagine if there were 5 times as many cyclists on the paths, some who are complete amateurs and some who want to go fast. Messy.
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Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Comedian » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:44 am

Gabe wrote:I think you're taking things waaaaaaaay out of context. The Netherlands is well-suited to cycling in terms of terrain (it's flat), town layouts, climate, distances, and cultural attitude. Brisbane is spread out across a massive area, town planning has been poor, the heat of summer is ridiculously intense, many places are incredibly hilly, and cycling is seen as something that you take seriously rather than just something people do. And the last point is actually partly the fault of cyclists.
I love cycling but there's no way in hell I would ride the 25km up and down hills and in heavy traffic, especially in summer, to get to the city from where I live. Even riding around the city isn't the easiest thing, there just isn't very much space. The central part of the city is squashed into a tiny area while greater brisbane is all over the place, so getting to the city is often a mission but the when you're there you don't have the space to ride around freely. I support any effort for infrastructure that makes cycling easier and more viable, but I also see things realistically. And I have to say, it's not neccessarily a bad thing that cycling isn't huge over here. Imagine if there were 5 times as many cyclists on the paths, some who are complete amateurs and some who want to go fast. Messy.

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Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby beauyboy » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:16 pm

Gabe wrote:I think you're taking things waaaaaaaay out of context. The Netherlands is well-suited to cycling in terms of terrain (it's flat), town layouts, climate, distances, and cultural attitude. Brisbane is spread out across a massive area, town planning has been poor, the heat of summer is ridiculously intense, many places are incredibly hilly, and cycling is seen as something that you take seriously rather than just something people do. And the last point is actually partly the fault of cyclists.
I love cycling but there's no way in hell I would ride the 25km up and down hills and in heavy traffic, especially in summer, to get to the city from where I live. Even riding around the city isn't the easiest thing, there just isn't very much space. The central part of the city is squashed into a tiny area while greater brisbane is all over the place, so getting to the city is often a mission but the when you're there you don't have the space to ride around freely. I support any effort for infrastructure that makes cycling easier and more viable, but I also see things realistically. And I have to say, it's not neccessarily a bad thing that cycling isn't huge over here. Imagine if there were 5 times as many cyclists on the paths, some who are complete amateurs and some who want to go fast. Messy.


I agree with comedian excuses excuses!

First things first, most work journeys (55%) are less then 10km (as per page 91 "Connecting SEQ 2031") not 25km. 10km is an easy distance to ride infact I do it every day.
Heat does not turn people off riding in Brisbane, and if it did way is there more people riding, to and from work in summer then there is in winter?
What makes an amateur an amateur? Lack of experiance, if the were more people on bikes there would be less amateurs because they would be riding more often.

The fact is low cycling rates in Brisbane have more to do with very little infrastructure then other issues. Just look at New Farm (before the floods), Woolloongabba and Toowong all three areas have decent infrastructure and have a cycling rate for to work trips of between 5-10%. This is ofcourse with there only being one cycling corridor in each area respectively.

Making excuses is the easy way out and one I will never except for increasing cycling's trip share.

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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Gabe » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:36 pm

I live 25km from the city. If you'd read my post properly you would have seen that.

I agree wholeheartedly that we should strive for a better cycling infrastructure and encourage others to ride, but my whole argument (which, as expected, has been pretty much ignored in this forum) is that we shouldn't be blindly bashing the government when they are in fact trying to encourage cycling. Constructive criticism is fine, and maybe the goals are slightly low, but fyi I am from Europe and have travelled across most European countries as well as parts of the US, a few Asian countries, and the northern tip of Africa. So I DO in fact have some global context, and can say with confidence that Brisbane is nothing like any Dutch city, neither in layout, culture and attitudes, or climate (and various things like politics, infrastructure, and education which all fall under the aforementioned broader categories). It's like saying we should try to build up surfing in The Netherlands to the same level as here.

And another fyi, the militant and elitist attitude of many road cyclists is what puts a lot of people I know off riding in the first place. It pushes me away from road cycling, for one thing. Everybody seems to take themselves and the sport way too seriously, and if you want to make a comparison with The Netherlands then you should start with that - they are incredibly casual about it, and that's one of the main reasons for it being so accessible.

Keep on flaming if you want, but the "with us or against us" kind of approach isn't very constructive. I say push for improvements (and it has been working), but be reasonable and willing to compromise. It's called "Being Democratic", and many people will be more willing to support you than if you're dictatorial.
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby beauyboy » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:23 am

Like I said before Excuse are excuses. We all know we are not Europe, there is a a reason why we can't grow apples in our backyards.

The fact is the main limiting factor to increasing bicycle usage in Brisbane is Infrastructure as can be seen on page 20 of "Queensland Cycle Strategy".

As for road bikes most commuter cyclists in Brisbane do not ride in on one. The Trash Mail might show road bikes everywhere but that is not what most people ride.

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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby London Boy » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:05 am

Gabe wrote:I live 25km from the city. If you'd read my post properly you would have seen that.

My shortest commuting route is a shade under 27k. My preferred commuting route is a shade over 30k. Still manage to get on the bike...

Gabe wrote:I agree wholeheartedly that we should strive for a better cycling infrastructure and encourage others to ride, but my whole argument (which, as expected, has been pretty much ignored in this forum) is that we shouldn't be blindly bashing the government when they are in fact trying to encourage cycling.

But what we should be doing is holding the government to account, to see cycling not as a minority interest but as a mode of transport for the mainstream. In Brisbane we're spending billions on road tunnels and busways. The spend on cycling is, by comparison, negligible and yet cycling has the potential to carry a significant proportion of the travelling public. And by spend I mean cycleways, yes, and also education, including in schools and also in a more comprehensive driver training and testing regime.

What the government(s) are doing is creditable, but only to minimal degree. Their words and actions are less than a complete match.

Gabe wrote:Constructive criticism is fine, and maybe the goals are slightly low, but fyi I am from Europe ...

I, too, am from Europe, etc. Not really the point. The goals are more than slightly low.

Just one thing - building cycling here is nothing like building surfing in the NL. The comparison holds water only if cycling is viewed solely as entertainment, in the way that, say, footie is entertainment.

It isn't. Cycling is entertainment for some, but a mode of transport for most (and both for many). I've yet to come across anyone commuting by surfboard.

Gabe wrote:And another fyi, the militant and elitist attitude of many road cyclists is what puts a lot of people I know off riding in the first place.


Isn't it possible that this militancy is a reaction to the attitudes displayed towards cyclists when those cyclists have the temerity to use the roads. It's hard to be casual when you've just had a bottle thrown at you out of some ute.
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Rhubarb » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:42 am

Gabe wrote:I live 25km from the city. If you'd read my post properly you would have seen that.

I agree wholeheartedly that we should strive for a better cycling infrastructure and encourage others to ride, but my whole argument (which, as expected, has been pretty much ignored in this forum) is that we shouldn't be blindly bashing the government when they are in fact trying to encourage cycling. Constructive criticism is fine, and maybe the goals are slightly low, but fyi I am from Europe and have travelled across most European countries as well as parts of the US, a few Asian countries, and the northern tip of Africa. So I DO in fact have some global context, and can say with confidence that Brisbane is nothing like any Dutch city, neither in layout, culture and attitudes, or climate (and various things like politics, infrastructure, and education which all fall under the aforementioned broader categories). It's like saying we should try to build up surfing in The Netherlands to the same level as here.

And another fyi, the militant and elitist attitude of many road cyclists is what puts a lot of people I know off riding in the first place. It pushes me away from road cycling, for one thing. Everybody seems to take themselves and the sport way too seriously, and if you want to make a comparison with The Netherlands then you should start with that - they are incredibly casual about it, and that's one of the main reasons for it being so accessible.

Keep on flaming if you want, but the "with us or against us" kind of approach isn't very constructive. I say push for improvements (and it has been working), but be reasonable and willing to compromise. It's called "Being Democratic", and many people will be more willing to support you than if you're dictatorial.


Wow Gabe - I'm not sure how you have extrapolated my original post to these inferred attitudes, but I'll clarify my position in case others read it that way too.

The fundamental premise of my post is that I believe that transport cycling (as opposed to sport cycling) can achieve a growth from current 1.6% to 5% takeup within 15 years without any further infrastructure investment or other govt intervention. I also believe we could achieve 10-20% with Govt intervention, mainly through infrastructure (such as Northern veloway, eastern suburbs veloway etc) as well as educational campaigns focussing on safety and promoting the benefits of cycling to individuals and the broader community.

I have worked as a consultant / contractor in govt departments so I absolutely know how hard it is to bring about change. I know of many good people in Govt struggling to get good ideas going. So I'm definitely not "blindly bashing" anyone. I fully support the development of an active transport strategy, just think that so much more is achievable relatively easily.

As background, I grew up on a small hobby farm outside a small town in central qld. I cycled maybe 3-4kms each way to primary school from grade 2 onwards. High school was 15km each way cycle. Came down to Brisbane for uni and cycled there about 8kms each way. Started work and cycled there too for 7 years. That was all changed when I got a company car and a parking spot. The cycling stopped for 10 years. A little over 2 years ago I started working back in the city but with no car park, so I decided to start riding the bike again and its been fantastic for me in so many ways. I've dropped 8-10kgs and am much fitter and healthier than I was. I am happier, and less stressed, and its saved me so much money. For the first year I still drove to the bus stop in wet weather, but earlier this year I sold the car (now a 1 car family) and commute via bike in all weather. So I am saving time, money, relieving road congestion for others motorists, improving their air quality etc etc etc.

So I'm not a sport cyclist, rather a middle aged commuter. Sure I ride to work in lycra on a carbon fibre road bike but thats because its functional over a 20kms commute. On the weekend though I do short trips up the local shops (2kms) on my old clunker bike in normal clothes.

I am only able to do this though because I have access to good infrastructure along the Western Freeway bikepath which provides a safe route in to the city. Similar Veloways (dedicated high speed bike only paths on major routes) are needed in the Northern and Eastern suburbs. Build these and the riders will come!!!!!

Combine this with positive campains to change the attitude of some drivers towards cyclists, and cycling has the potential to increase dramatically.
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby jasonc » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:50 am

Rhubarb wrote:So I'm not a sport cyclist, rather a middle aged commuter. Sure I ride to work in lycra on a carbon fibre road bike but thats because its functional over a 20kms commute. On the weekend though I do short trips up the local shops (2kms) on my old clunker bike in normal clothes.

I am only able to do this though because I have access to good infrastructure along the Western Freeway bikepath which provides a safe route in to the city.

so you live near me - centenary suburbs
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Rhubarb » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:13 am

jasonc wrote:so you live near me - centenary suburbs


Sort of - I live in Brookfield. I use parks and backstreets to join up with the western freeway bikepath at Fig Tree Pocket Rd.
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Rhubarb » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:18 am

PS I ride a white Malvern Star Oppy C5 and wear a flouro green jersey with a flouro green backpack cover.

Say hi if you see me :)
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:38 am

Is it only 1.6%, that's almost as bad as Sydney.

Is there a figure for commuting? Or is that the same as the 1.6% of trips?

5% is current Aussie best practice (Perth, Melbourne). But 10% is quite realistic, if the appropriate infrastructure appears
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby jasonc » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:42 am

Rhubarb wrote:PS I ride a white Malvern Star Oppy C5 and wear a flouro green jersey with a flouro green backpack cover.

Say hi if you see me :)

absolutely will. safe riding
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Undertow » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:31 pm

Gabe wrote:I live 25km from the city.


Why would you choose to live that far away from where you work?

The amount of people that make that choice is one of the reasons why brisbane traffic sucks so hard. Every day you've got people who live in the south driving to work in the north and vice versa, all crossing over around the CBD. It's just stupid.
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby jasonc » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:46 pm

Undertow wrote:
Gabe wrote:I live 25km from the city.


Why would you choose to live that far away from where you work?

The amount of people that make that choice is one of the reasons why brisbane traffic sucks so hard. Every day you've got people who live in the south driving to work in the north and vice versa, all crossing over around the CBD. It's just stupid.


I live just over 22kms by bike from work BUT I live less than 10 minutes walk from the golf club I used to be a member of, 2km from the outlaws, 4km from the wife's grandparents, and 6km from one of her uncles...
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Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Max » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:18 pm

Undertow wrote:
Gabe wrote:I live 25km from the city.


Why would you choose to live that far away from where you work?

The amount of people that make that choice is one of the reasons why brisbane traffic sucks so hard. Every day you've got people who live in the south driving to work in the north and vice versa, all crossing over around the CBD. It's just stupid.


I'm trying hard not to bite, but I just can't....

I live on the north side and work on the south side. I hate the south side. I think it's ugly, industrial and grimy. I would never choose to live there. I work there because that's where my job is. I took the job because I needed money. I stayed in the job because it suits me. How is that stupid?

My missus is a cardiac theatre nurse at Prince Charles. We live 15 minutes drive from there. When someone's aorta dissects, minutes matter. If she can't get there quickly, someone dies. Aside from the fact that the south side sucks, we live on the north side for its proximity to the hospital. Or maybe you'd prefer it if she got a job at the PA, so that it's closer to my work? :roll:

Bah.

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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby beauyboy » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:26 pm

I
Undertow wrote:
Gabe wrote:I live 25km from the city.


Why would you choose to live that far away from where you work?

The amount of people that make that choice is one of the reasons why brisbane traffic sucks so hard. Every day you've got people who live in the south driving to work in the north and vice versa, all crossing over around the CBD. It's just stupid.


I have to bite as well sorry

The fact is generally people can choose where they live(and buy) but if they are in need, cannot choose where they work. Remember we are currently in a Employers market not an employees market :|

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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby colaiacw » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:54 am

I would love to ride to work once or twice a week, but the roads are not built for it, especially Rochdale road or Gardener road. Even at 6:00 am in the morning the amount of heavy vehicles that use these roads scares me off.

Another sore point for me is the fact that mains roads will upgrade a road, such as Redland Bay road heading up to Duncan road, and then do absolutely nothing at a major roundabout for cyclists which forces you into a lane of traffic? What is going on there? The number of close calls I have had there is nerve racking and I avoid that junction at all costs between 6:00 am and 7:00pm Monday to Saturday, keep in mind that this is when most cyclists would use this area!

If bike paths were actually built and people actually know where they are and go, it would probably make people get on the bike instead of taking the car. I try to find maps and information on where bike paths are and if you download the maps from the council, best of luck trying to read them for fine details. I could be looking in the wrong place, but that is also my point, I don’t know where to find it!!

They need to promote the infrastructure and make people aware of it if it is to succeed.
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Disco » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:07 am

Max wrote:My missus is a cardiac theatre nurse at Prince Charles. We live 15 minutes drive from there. When someone's aorta dissects, minutes matter. If she can't get there quickly, someone dies. Aside from the fact that the south side sucks, we live on the north side for its proximity to the hospital. Or maybe you'd prefer it if she got a job at the PA, so that it's closer to my work? :roll:


Get her to work at PA, we're much nicer there... :)
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby ekib » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:49 pm

beauyboy wrote:http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/strategies/Active_Transport_Strategy_full.pdf
The BCC has just released a new active transport strategy. It is currently open to consultation.
The thing is only 16pages and of that over half is pictures :roll: . Please remember to respond to this because what response will dictate how the council will react.

Donald


Getting back to the OP, the BCC draft document is very brief and very vague. It gives no comittment at all in $$ financial terms. It does give some targets on modal share and it does say how much money they have spent in the past ($100million over 4 years).

So, since we all have good ideas about cycling here and that the BCC has asked for suggestions, I suggest we all spend some time to actually sit down and submit some thoughts to the council.

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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby beauyboy » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:20 pm

Yes but not all of the $100 million has been out of Councils own chest. The state went 50/50 with Council for the Bicentennial Upgrades so that of the top of my head would be at least $10 million that was infact state money.
We are now down to $90 million and how many more projects were infact co founded by state by council has decided to include the entire cost in the $100 million. Accounting is a very good way to lye without infact lying.

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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Rhubarb » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:16 am

Public Transport in Brisbane went up 15% yesterday and according to their website, will go up a further 15% in 2013 and 2014.

ref: http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-far ... nned-fares

So 2 years from now a zone 4 bus trip (eg from my home to cbd) will cost $3,000 per year (48 weeks working minus 5 public hols = 470 trips (AT) $6.32 each).

So getting back to my original premise, I think factors such as this would see the cycle commuting rates increase to 5% within 15 years without any other significant government investment.

Combined with govt investment in safe cycling infrastructure etc, I think we could achieve way more than this.

Make it safe and they will come !!!!!

Edit: Link to price info included
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Re: Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby Comedian » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:09 am

Rhubarb wrote:Public Transport in Brisbane went up 15% yesterday and according to their website, will go up a further 15% in 2013 and 2014.

ref: http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-far ... nned-fares

So 2 years from now a zone 4 bus trip (eg from my home to cbd) will cost $3,000 per year (48 weeks working minus 5 public hols = 470 trips (AT) $6.32 each).

So getting back to my original premise, I think factors such as this would see the cycle commuting rates increase to 5% within 15 years without any other significant government investment.

Combined with govt investment in safe cycling infrastructure etc, I think we could achieve way more than this.

Make it safe and they will come !!!!!

Edit: Link to price info included


Look I agree with you to a point. If we had super safe facilities from most parts of the city then yes commuting could be a really big thing.

However with what we have now I agree that this kind of thing will increase the numbers of commuters... but even if it doubled current numbers it is still only a tiny drop in the bucket. To cycle now people have to be hardy.

The reality is people don't want to play with cars on a bike - and Australians have become lazy too. We're going to have to plonk a-grade infrastructure in front of people and make the alternatives hideous for people to get back on their bikes in numbers - IMHO. :) Oh well... their loss.
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Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Brisbanes New Cycle Strategy

Postby themerlin » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:35 pm

I was thinking of doing a park and ride, when time is short or I can't be bothered todo the 20ks,maybe drive half way and ride the rest.
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