Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
- aeroslave
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Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby aeroslave » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:32 pm
Everything sweet with this set up since 2008.
Yesterday I replaced only the front brake pads with Swisstop yellow. Went for a typical ride in Kurrajong Hills. Suddenly on my second decent....my front tyre exploded and smoke coming out of the rim bed. I narrowly squishingly manouvered safely on the side of the bottom of the ascent.
Upon inspection...sidewalls concaved and burned out with yellowish streaks and delaminated singhed carbon fibers!
This is no doubt caused by the only thing different on my set up, The Swisstop yellow pads! I loved my Assaults and I am going to buy new ones.
DAMN the swisstops! I could have been worse. It may be ok in crit racing but NO WAY am I using these pads when I head up the mountains. DAMN these yellow pads trap heat like a billy in a blast furnace!
This is my experience and opinion only. Just wanted to share this actual experience because I think I got LUCKY! Others might not!
Reason: Language.
- ft_critical
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby ft_critical » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:15 pm
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Strange Rover » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:36 pm
Or are you saying that in your instance you did something wrong, or had some other issue and you have no idea what that caused your particular failure. And that people should be careful because full carbon rims are no where near as straight forward and simple to use as an aluminium braking surface??
At the end of the day, if you run full carbon wheels you need to be very careful with the brand of the wheels, the brand of the pads, the setup of the brakes (angle and position of the pads relative to the braking surface) and the condition of the wheel braking surface because stuff can go wrong and it can be really dangerous.
aeroslavebigbelly...it would be good if you worked out what caused your failure (I doubt its the pads) because it would be good information for people here.
With the carbon clincher boom and also the availability of no brand carbon hoops being made into cheap wheelsets these sorts of problems will only become more prevalent as more people jump on the full carbon wheel band wagon. People need to be really careful, because as aeroslavebigbelly has said, he has run this setup problem free for many years and probably has a better understanding of how to use these wheels than most but now something has happened.
Sam
- NotFlyingScot
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby NotFlyingScot » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:12 pm
Told you those pads were weight limited Luis Glad you are OK.aeroslavebigbelly wrote:NO WAY am I using these pads when I head up the mountains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaC-WPwQoe0
- nayfen
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby nayfen » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:15 pm
otherwise try these
http://www.zipp.com/accessories/detail.php?ID=147
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby trailgumby » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:28 pm
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby jules21 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:58 pm
i'm going to speculate that you didn't bed them in properly. rims and pads never wear perfectly evenly. when you put a new set of pads on rims that have been worn down by the old pads, the rim-pad contact area will, until they're bedded in, be much smaller, i.e. only on the 'ridge lines' (high spots) of the rim. that will certainly concentrate the heat on those localised sections of the rim, which could have been the cause of your incident.aeroslavebigbelly wrote:Yesterday I replaced only the front brake pads with Swisstop yellow. Went for a typical ride in Kurrajong Hills. Suddenly on my second decent....my front tyre exploded and smoke coming out of the rim bed.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Crittski » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:36 pm
Volagi Liscio Ultegra
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Nobody » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:50 pm
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Drunkmonkey » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:58 pm
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby DaveOZ » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:06 pm
Sorry to hear of your troubles but thanks for letting us all know. Quite a few 70+km/h descents around here.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby jules21 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:09 pm
that's called full line forcing and it's illegal.DaveOZ wrote:Their website says your warranty will be void if you use any other pad with them.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby DaveOZ » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:18 pm
From Reynolds....jules21 wrote:that's called full line forcing and it's illegal.DaveOZ wrote:Their website says your warranty will be void if you use any other pad with them.
What brake pads do you recommend for Reynolds Carbon wheels?
We recommend the use of Reynolds Carbon Specific Pads included with your wheel set. The use of any other pad, or compound, may result in undesirable braking performance and can damage your rim. The use of any other brake pads than the ones specified will void your warranty and/or Reynolds Assurance claim
Use of cork brake pads, even if designed specifically for carbon rims is not recommended and will void all warranty and/or Reynolds Assurance claims.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby DaveOZ » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:27 pm
The original Lotus Elise had aluminium matrix disc rotors and there was only one type of pad you could use in them. Normal pads would literally melt them. You would be crazy to not to use the correct ones developed by Lotus for the car.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby rkelsen » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:56 pm
The ones which were "lightly used" in this thread?: http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewt ... 25&t=47889aeroslavebigbelly wrote:Yesterday I replaced only the front brake pads with Swisstop yellow.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby jules21 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:04 pm
i agree in general. but if a reputable brake pad manufacturer - and that's swiss stop - says they're ok, then i'd tend to take their advice ahead of a competitor's who wants you to use their pads. in any case, under aussie law they cannot automatically void their warranty if you refuse to use their pads. in practice it's reasonable to accept that they'll probably put up a fight though.DaveOZ wrote:Tes, but if the manufacture has already made a clear warning that certain types of pad will result in damage to the rim then I think you should listen to them.
The original Lotus Elise had aluminium matrix disc rotors and there was only one type of pad you could use in them. Normal pads would literally melt them. You would be crazy to not to use the correct ones developed by Lotus for the car.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby trailgumby » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:38 pm
Beg to differ.jules21 wrote:that's called full line forcing and it's illegal.DaveOZ wrote:Their website says your warranty will be void if you use any other pad with them.
There was no refusal to supply goods or services.http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/3663#F wrote:Full line forcing
A supplier refusing to supply goods or a service unless the intending purchaser agrees to specified conditions. For a full line forcing arrangement to contravene the Trade Practices Act it must have the effect of substantially lessening competition in the relevant market. (also see Third line forcing)
See also http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.ph ... mId/816377
It is subject to the substantial lessening of competition test. I don't see how there can be any argument made in the circumstances that it falls foul of that test.
I can think of plenty of situations where sound technical reasons would dictate a manufacturer specifies particular products be used together, and the example of the Lotus brakes above is just one of many where it is perfectly reasonable to do so. Operating platform certification by software vendors is another.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby aeroslave » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:40 pm
I have used the Reynolds Assaults since 2008 as mentioned. Used going to the mountains repeatedly with standard Reynolds pads. Hell nothing to take away from Bellbird but Bowen is steeper and just as long and I never had a problem with the standard pads and wheelset. I just replaced the front as its worn. Same as with going to katoomba and the Lookout at Hawkesbury.
The pads were brand new. Installed and bedded in the m7 cycleway before the ride to Kurrajong. I am not a newbie on this things....
So take it for what it is. I just want to warn those who actually cycle in the mountains requiring long descents that this thing happened. Freak accident or not at least I blurted it out. Remember...that local 1:20minute flat crit race is diofferent from a 125km mountain ride where descents can take you down 85-95kph like that stretch in Bowen and Lappo Hill and etc etc etc
No need to argue. If your happy with the swisstop yellows use it. I won't. Just make sure your life insurance is in order. Yes it was a mistake to not use Reynolds pads. No worries I always wanted to buy the ENVE wheelset anyway. Now I have a reason
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby aeroslave » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:48 pm
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby aeroslave » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:54 pm
NotFlyingScot wrote:Told you those pads were weight limited Luis Glad you are OK.aeroslavebigbelly wrote:NO WAY am I using these pads when I head up the mountains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaC-WPwQoe0
Ha ha Sandy believe it or not I am lighter now. When the Reynolds were brand new 2008 I was 92kgs LOL
I am 83kgs now. Not lightweight but definitely less stressful on equipment buwahahahaha
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby aeroslave » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:56 pm
DaveOZ wrote:I have Reynolds carbon wheels and have always used the Reynolds blue pads. I just got a new set which my LBS sourced from the Aus distributor. Their website says your warranty will be void if you use any other pad with them. Now I know why.
Sorry to hear of your troubles but thanks for letting us all know. Quite a few 70+km/h descents around here.
You know what, I was warned about heat dissipation problems with this but I did not listen as I heard otherwise that these yellow pads are the best in the business.....
Lesson for me...I will use only Zipp pads on my Zipps and reynolds on my reynolds and etc etc etc....
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby jcjordan » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:52 pm
- They do not dissipate heat as well as alloy. This means that when you break hard and constantly they heat up and once hot the breaking force is reduced.
- The surface is not as grippy, which means that you will never have the same breaking effect as you will on alloy.
you also need to think about how you break when using carbon. Rather than using moderated pressure over an extended period you need to come on hard for very short periods. This give the pads time to cool down.
I learnt this after setting a set of Shimano cork pads on fire, no I am not kidding. The smell was horrible and then had to figure out how I was going to get home with no breaks.
You need to way this up against the benefits of carbon.
Veni, Vidi, Vespa -- I Came, I Saw, I Rode Home
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby jules21 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:03 pm
actually i'd argue there was - the (statutory) warranty is a service. in any case, i am 100% certain it's illegal - it was a major issue in the automotive industry with some OEMs declining to honour warranties if non-OEM spare parts or service centres were used. they were shot down by the ACCC who clarified once and for all that it was illegal.trailgumby wrote: There was no refusal to supply goods or services.
i'm not saying you can just use anything and force the manufacturer to honour their warranty. if the 'aftermarket' part can be shown to have caused or contributed to the warranty claim, then the manufacturer is perfectly entitled to decline warranty coverage. but the justification must be the third party-supplied part being the problem, not just that it was third party-supplied.trailgumby wrote:I can think of plenty of situations where sound technical reasons would dictate a manufacturer specifies particular products be used together, and the example of the Lotus brakes above is just one of many where it is perfectly reasonable to do so. Operating platform certification by software vendors is another.
in this case, it's unclear that the swiss-stop pads caused the problem. as i said earlier though, in practice, i have little doubt the rim manufacturer would be very reluctant to honour their warranty.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Richard.L » Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:35 am
Due to what you have experienced is why i haven't built a carbon clincher front wheel for my bike yet (only have a rear). So going to save for tubs instead.
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