Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

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Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby aeroslave » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:32 pm

I have used Reynolds pads on my Reynolds Assaults since 2008. I used it for racing and training. Excellent! I ride both road races, crit races and long climbs like the Blue Mountains Katoomba, Hawkesbury Lookout, Kurrajong Hills and Bowen Mountain.

Everything sweet with this set up since 2008.

Yesterday I replaced only the front brake pads with Swisstop yellow. Went for a typical ride in Kurrajong Hills. Suddenly on my second decent....my front tyre exploded and smoke coming out of the rim bed. I narrowly squishingly manouvered safely on the side of the bottom of the ascent.

Upon inspection...sidewalls concaved and burned out with yellowish streaks and delaminated singhed carbon fibers!

This is no doubt caused by the only thing different on my set up, The Swisstop yellow pads! I loved my Assaults and I am going to buy new ones.

DAMN the swisstops! I could have been worse. It may be ok in crit racing but NO WAY am I using these pads when I head up the mountains. DAMN these yellow pads trap heat like a billy in a blast furnace!

This is my experience and opinion only. Just wanted to share this actual experience because I think I got LUCKY! Others might not!
Last edited by Mulger bill on Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Language.
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by BNA » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:15 pm

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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby ft_critical » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:15 pm

Sorry to hear that. I am going to swap out my yellows for the factory pads. I didn't want to do it, but I will be using different pads depending on the wheels I run.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby Strange Rover » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:36 pm

So are you suggesting that Swisstop Yellow pads are dangerous and everybody should stop using them ... even though they are recommended by most carbon wheel manufacturers as a safe pad to use and, I would imagine, thousands upon thousands of sets have been and are being used successfully and safely??

Or are you saying that in your instance you did something wrong, or had some other issue and you have no idea what that caused your particular failure. And that people should be careful because full carbon rims are no where near as straight forward and simple to use as an aluminium braking surface??

At the end of the day, if you run full carbon wheels you need to be very careful with the brand of the wheels, the brand of the pads, the setup of the brakes (angle and position of the pads relative to the braking surface) and the condition of the wheel braking surface because stuff can go wrong and it can be really dangerous.

aeroslavebigbelly...it would be good if you worked out what caused your failure (I doubt its the pads) because it would be good information for people here.

With the carbon clincher boom and also the availability of no brand carbon hoops being made into cheap wheelsets these sorts of problems will only become more prevalent as more people jump on the full carbon wheel band wagon. People need to be really careful, because as aeroslavebigbelly has said, he has run this setup problem free for many years and probably has a better understanding of how to use these wheels than most but now something has happened.

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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby NotFlyingScot » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:12 pm

aeroslavebigbelly wrote:NO WAY am I using these pads when I head up the mountains

Told you those pads were weight limited Luis :P Glad you are OK.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby nayfen » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:15 pm

Have the pads ever been used on alloy rims? The pads can be used on both carbon and alloy rims. If you change rim types i.e. alloy to carbon check the pads thoroughly as fine alloy particle imbed into the pads creating a wheel eating issue.

otherwise try these
http://www.zipp.com/accessories/detail.php?ID=147
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby trailgumby » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:28 pm

Glad you stayed upright and on the correct side of the road! :shock:
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby jules21 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:58 pm

aeroslavebigbelly wrote:Yesterday I replaced only the front brake pads with Swisstop yellow. Went for a typical ride in Kurrajong Hills. Suddenly on my second decent....my front tyre exploded and smoke coming out of the rim bed.

i'm going to speculate that you didn't bed them in properly. rims and pads never wear perfectly evenly. when you put a new set of pads on rims that have been worn down by the old pads, the rim-pad contact area will, until they're bedded in, be much smaller, i.e. only on the 'ridge lines' (high spots) of the rim. that will certainly concentrate the heat on those localised sections of the rim, which could have been the cause of your incident.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby Crittski » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:36 pm

who says that there is no role for disk brakes on road bikes!
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby Nobody » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:50 pm

A good example of why disc brakes for carbon road wheels are more of a need than a want.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby Drunkmonkey » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:58 pm

I have always used swisstop yellow pads on my Assaults and have never had a problem.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby DaveOZ » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:06 pm

I have Reynolds carbon wheels and have always used the Reynolds blue pads. I just got a new set which my LBS sourced from the Aus distributor. Their website says your warranty will be void if you use any other pad with them. Now I know why. :shock:

Sorry to hear of your troubles but thanks for letting us all know. Quite a few 70+km/h descents around here.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby jules21 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:09 pm

DaveOZ wrote:Their website says your warranty will be void if you use any other pad with them.

that's called full line forcing and it's illegal.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby DaveOZ » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:18 pm

jules21 wrote:
DaveOZ wrote:Their website says your warranty will be void if you use any other pad with them.

that's called full line forcing and it's illegal.


From Reynolds....

What brake pads do you recommend for Reynolds Carbon wheels?

We recommend the use of Reynolds Carbon Specific Pads included with your wheel set. The use of any other pad, or compound, may result in undesirable braking performance and can damage your rim. The use of any other brake pads than the ones specified will void your warranty and/or Reynolds Assurance claim

Use of cork brake pads, even if designed specifically for carbon rims is not recommended and will void all warranty and/or Reynolds Assurance claims.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby jules21 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:22 pm

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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby DaveOZ » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:27 pm

Tes, but if the manufacture has already made a clear warning that certain types of pad will result in damage to the rim then I think you should listen to them.

The original Lotus Elise had aluminium matrix disc rotors and there was only one type of pad you could use in them. Normal pads would literally melt them. You would be crazy to not to use the correct ones developed by Lotus for the car.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby rkelsen » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:56 pm

aeroslavebigbelly wrote:Yesterday I replaced only the front brake pads with Swisstop yellow.

The ones which were "lightly used" in this thread?: http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=47889

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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby jules21 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:04 pm

DaveOZ wrote:Tes, but if the manufacture has already made a clear warning that certain types of pad will result in damage to the rim then I think you should listen to them.

The original Lotus Elise had aluminium matrix disc rotors and there was only one type of pad you could use in them. Normal pads would literally melt them. You would be crazy to not to use the correct ones developed by Lotus for the car.

i agree in general. but if a reputable brake pad manufacturer - and that's swiss stop - says they're ok, then i'd tend to take their advice ahead of a competitor's who wants you to use their pads. in any case, under aussie law they cannot automatically void their warranty if you refuse to use their pads. in practice it's reasonable to accept that they'll probably put up a fight though.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby trailgumby » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:38 pm

jules21 wrote:
DaveOZ wrote:Their website says your warranty will be void if you use any other pad with them.

that's called full line forcing and it's illegal.

Beg to differ.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/3663#F wrote:Full line forcing
A supplier refusing to supply goods or a service unless the intending purchaser agrees to specified conditions. For a full line forcing arrangement to contravene the Trade Practices Act it must have the effect of substantially lessening competition in the relevant market. (also see Third line forcing)

There was no refusal to supply goods or services.

See also http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.ph ... mId/816377

It is subject to the substantial lessening of competition test. I don't see how there can be any argument made in the circumstances that it falls foul of that test.

I can think of plenty of situations where sound technical reasons would dictate a manufacturer specifies particular products be used together, and the example of the Lotus brakes above is just one of many where it is perfectly reasonable to do so. Operating platform certification by software vendors is another.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby aeroslave » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:40 pm

Take it for what it is. Just a heads up. Good on you'se all for those who have no problems.

I have used the Reynolds Assaults since 2008 as mentioned. Used going to the mountains repeatedly with standard Reynolds pads. Hell nothing to take away from Bellbird but Bowen is steeper and just as long and I never had a problem with the standard pads and wheelset. I just replaced the front as its worn. Same as with going to katoomba and the Lookout at Hawkesbury.

The pads were brand new. Installed and bedded in the m7 cycleway before the ride to Kurrajong. I am not a newbie on this things....

So take it for what it is. I just want to warn those who actually cycle in the mountains requiring long descents that this thing happened. Freak accident or not at least I blurted it out. Remember...that local 1:20minute flat crit race is diofferent from a 125km mountain ride where descents can take you down 85-95kph like that stretch in Bowen and Lappo Hill and etc etc etc :lol:

No need to argue. If your happy with the swisstop yellows use it. I won't. Just make sure your life insurance is in order. Yes it was a mistake to not use Reynolds pads. No worries I always wanted to buy the ENVE wheelset anyway. Now I have a reason :D

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby aeroslave » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:48 pm

Actually, I was riding with EON when it happened, he recommends tubeless....maybe it is time to go tubeless DA.....
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby aeroslave » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:54 pm

NotFlyingScot wrote:
aeroslavebigbelly wrote:NO WAY am I using these pads when I head up the mountains

Told you those pads were weight limited Luis :P Glad you are OK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaC-WPwQoe0




Ha ha Sandy believe it or not I am lighter now. When the Reynolds were brand new 2008 I was 92kgs LOL

I am 83kgs now. Not lightweight but definitely less stressful on equipment buwahahahaha
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby aeroslave » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:56 pm

DaveOZ wrote:I have Reynolds carbon wheels and have always used the Reynolds blue pads. I just got a new set which my LBS sourced from the Aus distributor. Their website says your warranty will be void if you use any other pad with them. Now I know why. :shock:

Sorry to hear of your troubles but thanks for letting us all know. Quite a few 70+km/h descents around here.



You know what, I was warned about heat dissipation problems with this but I did not listen as I heard otherwise that these yellow pads are the best in the business..... :(

Lesson for me...I will use only Zipp pads on my Zipps and reynolds on my reynolds and etc etc etc....
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby jcjordan » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:52 pm

There are a number of factors that people forget when using carbon wheels.
- They do not dissipate heat as well as alloy. This means that when you break hard and constantly they heat up and once hot the breaking force is reduced.
- The surface is not as grippy, which means that you will never have the same breaking effect as you will on alloy.
you also need to think about how you break when using carbon. Rather than using moderated pressure over an extended period you need to come on hard for very short periods. This give the pads time to cool down.

I learnt this after setting a set of Shimano cork pads on fire, no I am not kidding. The smell was horrible and then had to figure out how I was going to get home with no breaks.

You need to way this up against the benefits of carbon.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby jules21 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:03 pm

trailgumby wrote: There was no refusal to supply goods or services.

actually i'd argue there was - the (statutory) warranty is a service. in any case, i am 100% certain it's illegal - it was a major issue in the automotive industry with some OEMs declining to honour warranties if non-OEM spare parts or service centres were used. they were shot down by the ACCC who clarified once and for all that it was illegal.
trailgumby wrote:I can think of plenty of situations where sound technical reasons would dictate a manufacturer specifies particular products be used together, and the example of the Lotus brakes above is just one of many where it is perfectly reasonable to do so. Operating platform certification by software vendors is another.

i'm not saying you can just use anything and force the manufacturer to honour their warranty. if the 'aftermarket' part can be shown to have caused or contributed to the warranty claim, then the manufacturer is perfectly entitled to decline warranty coverage. but the justification must be the third party-supplied part being the problem, not just that it was third party-supplied.

in this case, it's unclear that the swiss-stop pads caused the problem. as i said earlier though, in practice, i have little doubt the rim manufacturer would be very reluctant to honour their warranty.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail

Postby Richard.L » Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:35 am

Swissstop Yellows are used by a number of manufacturers for their heat testing. Last time i checked zipp approved of them to use with their wheels.
Due to what you have experienced is why i haven't built a carbon clincher front wheel for my bike yet (only have a rear). So going to save for tubs instead.
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