Allow riding on footpaths

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby diggler » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:14 pm

il padrone wrote:
GraemeL wrote:How many riders have been killed in the last 30yrs riding on the footpath?

According to BNV's report of 2002, 16% of fatalities (the second largest cause) involve a cyclist "entering a road from a driveway or footpath". I'd guess that some percentage of these would have involved footpath riding*. Most of these cyclists were male, aged under 15.

By the standards of the helmet-mandaters 'any death is one too many' so we need to continue to outlaw footpath riding.


* when riding on the footpath you have to cross roads much more frequently than when road riding, and you usually loose priority. These are the danger points for footpath riders


If 84% of fatalities are on roads, do we outlaw cycling on roads?

If some people choke on ham sandwiches, do we ban ham sandwiches?

I agree with the other post. Males aged under 15 are inexperienced, can be dare devils etc. Are there many adults killed entering a road from a driveway or footpath?
That's what a fool does. I'm invincible, I'm paying money ... uh ... The girl's happy, she's got no money, I got my rocks off. How good is this?
diggler
 
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:23 pm

by BNA » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:16 pm

BNA
 

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:16 pm

Video is a bit OT, but this shows how it is very easy to ride busy roads....... and how poorly designed bike lanes (or maybe any bike lanes) can stuff up cyclists' safety.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV3gfabmrnc&feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17468
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby diggler » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:05 pm

Those stats appear to be people entering the roadway from a footpath or driveway rather than just riding on a footpath. I wonder how many are hit just riding on footpaths.
That's what a fool does. I'm invincible, I'm paying money ... uh ... The girl's happy, she's got no money, I got my rocks off. How good is this?
diggler
 
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:23 pm

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby GraemeL » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:11 pm

It may show how to ride on busy roads, but they leave out the part where you are being abused and shaved etc for taking up too much room on the road.
Riding on a footpath may have it's risks, but at least people don't have to put up with being abused or threatened by idiots that think the world owes them a favour and there is no danger of being hit from behind because the driver was'nt paying attention.
If it were allowed it may ecourage more people to take up cycling and no matter how many that is, it's a win for cycling as a whole.

Graeme
***Looking For Information About Bicycle Cameras ***

* Bicycle Camera FAQ's *** Mounting FAQ’s & DIY Mounts *
GraemeL
 
Posts: 1290
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:47 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:18 pm

GraemeL wrote:It may show how to ride on busy roads, but they leave out the part where you are being abused and shaved etc for taking up too much room on the road.

I ride pretty much like this on my commute - 10kms each way in the middle suburbs (car-centric travel) and yet I find I get next to no abuse. Just does not raise itself as an issue. The only times I get close-shaves are when I vague out and go too close to the kerb. Riding wide I force drivers to make the decision to change lanes to pass, with no grief from them.

Try it one day........it works :idea:

Aushiker didn't believe me...... until he tried it too :o

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAJUHoIQapk&feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17468
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby GraemeL » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:38 pm

I tend to ride not in the gutter but not in the middle either, probably somewhere in between. I claim the lane specially coming to a roundabout and have copped my fair share of abuse because of it.
There will always be those that have no regard for anyone's safety and it wouldn't matter if we rode on the moon, they still wouldn't be happy.

Both locations have their advantages and disadvantages, but for those inexperienced, the footpath is the safest option. I really don't understand why people are against the idea, it's not going to impact them and if it gets more people on bikes then it's all good.


Graeme
***Looking For Information About Bicycle Cameras ***

* Bicycle Camera FAQ's *** Mounting FAQ’s & DIY Mounts *
GraemeL
 
Posts: 1290
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:47 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby PB12IN » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:40 pm

il padrone wrote:I ride pretty much like this on my commute - 10kms each way in the middle suburbs (car-centric travel) and yet I find I get next to no abuse. Just does not raise itself as an issue. The only times I get close-shaves are when I vague out and go too close to the kerb. Riding wide I force drivers to make the decision to change lanes to pass, with no grief from them.

Try it one day........it works :idea:

Aushiker didn't believe me...... until he tried it too :o


I don't envy you that ride, my commute I have a lane wide shoulder to ride in for the whole 10km except for about 50m on the way in and about 150m on the way home (50 m of which i take the footpath as the lane is so narrow a car bearly fits in it.)

GraemeL wrote:I tend to ride not in the gutter but not in the middle either, probably somewhere in between.

Same here
PB12IN
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:34 pm
Location: Gold Coast

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:50 pm

GraemeL wrote:Both locations have their advantages and disadvantages, but for those inexperienced, the footpath is the safest option. I really don't understand why people are against the idea, it's not going to impact them and if it gets more people on bikes then it's all good.

Make it safer for all road users - get more bikes riding on the roads - safer for pedestrians, safer for drivers and safer for cyclists.

Lots of cyclists on the footpaths don't impact on the drivers' psyche. No need to worry about them, give way to them, care about them (at least in the Australian legal structure). Just drive faster!


PB12IN, that's not my commute in the video. Aushiker filmed it on his own ride in Perth near Fremantle.
Last edited by il padrone on Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17468
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby GraemeL » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:12 pm

I understand that, but we dont want inexperienced riders on the roads, it is safer for them to ride on the footpath. People will eventually take to the roads as they gain more experience and confidence and there will be those that just want to ride to the local park or shops via the footpath etc.

People seem to think we will all be forced onto the footpaths, I really don't think allowing people to ride on the footpath is going to impact how we are treated on the roads. It is legal in some states and I don't think it has made any difference to the way drivers treat cyclists.

Graeme
***Looking For Information About Bicycle Cameras ***

* Bicycle Camera FAQ's *** Mounting FAQ’s & DIY Mounts *
GraemeL
 
Posts: 1290
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:47 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:15 pm

I don't have your confidence about Australian drivers' attitudes to the law re cyclists and their expectations I'm afraid. Much rather have my legal position on the road very clearly stated - bicycles are road vehicles
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17468
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby GraemeL » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:21 pm

I think we should agree to disagree :D

Graeme
***Looking For Information About Bicycle Cameras ***

* Bicycle Camera FAQ's *** Mounting FAQ’s & DIY Mounts *
GraemeL
 
Posts: 1290
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:47 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby diggler » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:49 pm

I don't think it is either or. Why can't cyclists ride on roads and footpaths? 15 km/h on footpaths. We don't even need to change the law because it is not being enforced.
That's what a fool does. I'm invincible, I'm paying money ... uh ... The girl's happy, she's got no money, I got my rocks off. How good is this?
diggler
 
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:23 pm

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:37 pm

Therein lies the nub of the matter Diggler. Any law that is not enforced is not worth having.

Gentlemen, if you prefer the different safety that the footpaths offer use them. I do not endorse the practice which I have been known to do occasionally. BTW it's legal in most areas of my town. As always, use your own judgement and ride sensibly to the conditions.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25269
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:49 pm

GraemeL wrote:I understand that, but we dont want inexperienced riders on the roads,

Actually...... I do!

That is the best place for them to learn road skills, ideally following other more experienced cyclists. It's the way my kids learned to be good road riders. It's the way cyclists learn road sense in European cycling cities. Like I said, the more cyclists (including the inexperienced) the safer it is for everyone. Drivers learn that they need to slow down, allow more space and drive with an alert eye for cyclists.... even child cyclists.

All with a sense of judgement for the most suitable road to match the rider's experience of course.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17468
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby Ozkaban » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:56 pm

il padrone wrote:
GraemeL wrote:I understand that, but we dont want inexperienced riders on the roads,

Actually...... I do!

That is the best place for them to learn road skills, ideally following other more experienced cyclists. It's the way my kids learned to be good road riders. It's the way cyclists learn road sense in European cycling cities. Like I said, the more cyclists (including the inexperienced) the safer it is for everyone. Drivers learn that they need to slow down, allow more space and drive with an alert eye for cyclists.... even child cyclists.

All with a sense of judgement for the most suitable road to match the rider's experience of course.


Couldn't disagree more.. We stopped teaching kids to swim by chucking em in the deepend ages ago. Ride on the road *once* you're confident with your bike and traffic. Earlier is a recipe for disaster.
Ozkaban
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:11 pm

Ozkaban wrote:We stopped teaching kids to swim by chucking em in the deepend ages ago.

Umm...... ?? Please read my post. That is not what I was suggesting

Ozkaban wrote:Ride on the road *once* you're confident with your bike and traffic. Earlier is a recipe for disaster.


il padrone wrote:That is the best place for them to learn road skills, ideally following other more experienced cyclists. It's the way my kids learned to be good road riders. It's the way cyclists learn road sense in European cycling cities. Like I said, the more cyclists (including the inexperienced) the safer it is for everyone. Drivers learn that they need to slow down, allow more space and drive with an alert eye for cyclists.... even child cyclists.

All with a sense of judgement for the most suitable road to match the rider's experience of course.


Essentially what I said, and what I did with my kids. Get them competent on basketball courts/car parks (much better than footpaths), then begin riding on-road - quiet residential streets, following mum or dad to begin with. A graduated approach to learning the skills. They will not learn road skills on footpaths, just learn the falsehood - that this is the 'place of cycling' in the predatory pecking order.
Last edited by il padrone on Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17468
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby damhooligan » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:20 pm

Ozkaban wrote:
il padrone wrote:
GraemeL wrote:I understand that, but we dont want inexperienced riders on the roads,

Actually...... I do!

That is the best place for them to learn road skills, ideally following other more experienced cyclists. It's the way my kids learned to be good road riders. It's the way cyclists learn road sense in European cycling cities. Like I said, the more cyclists (including the inexperienced) the safer it is for everyone. Drivers learn that they need to slow down, allow more space and drive with an alert eye for cyclists.... even child cyclists.

All with a sense of judgement for the most suitable road to match the rider's experience of course.


Couldn't disagree more.. We stopped teaching kids to swim by chucking em in the deepend ages ago. Ride on the road *once* you're confident with your bike and traffic. Earlier is a recipe for disaster.


I agree with IP here.
However it depends on the age of the kids.

It is not a didsaster ozkaban, if you teach the kids propperly.
According to my logic, if it safe enough for me to ride on the road, it is safe enough for my kids.
The dutch have one word to describe the aussie MHL, this word is ;
SCHIJNVEILIGHEID !!
User avatar
damhooligan
 
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:16 pm
Location: melbourne

Re: Allow riding on footpaths

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:50 pm

il padrone wrote:Significant safety risks on most roads, unless you're really just pootling and yielding at every cross-street. Going by a range of overseas experience of such systems.

Image

http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/facil/s ... dfc173.htm


Drivers don't look, driveways are always a hazard, then there's the problems of a confined path that will need to be two-way. Poor man's orange.

I agree with your scenarios and probably like you, I would advocate against a rider using the path for general commuting.

But I suspect that the sort of rider that the OP is referring to will generally be overly cautious at intersections and even likely to walk the cycle across intersections. Though they may still not appreciate the risk from driveways.
Unchain yourself - Ride a unicycle .Image
User avatar
ColinOldnCranky
 
Posts: 4289
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:58 pm

Previous

Return to Cycling Safety and Advocacy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Support BNA
Click for online shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Cycling Express Cycling Express
Ebay Ebay AU
ProBikeKit ProBikeKit UK
Evans Cycles Evans Cycles UK
JensonUSA Jenson USA
JensonUSA Competitive Cyclist