Road Toll Zero

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Road Toll Zero

Postby LemonChip » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:04 am

Hey everyone, I'm pretty new to this forum but have something I'd like to share that I hope some of you will be interested in...

Recently on A Current Affair they ran a story about the dangers of people driving while talking or texting on their mobile phones. It's a bit problem and something which is almost impossible to police.

I'm not a cyclist myself (thought I want to get back into it), may background is in web design and I thought to myself "hey I can help with this problem, or at the very least raise awareness for the issue".

So I have built a website called http://www.roadtollzero.com.au

The big idea
Many people have video capable smart phones, and I've also come across numerous riders who actually ride with video cameras mounted on their bikes/helmets!

So the idea is that people can submit videos of dangerous drivers (it's not restricted to just people driving while talk/texting), and can submit it via the web site, where it will be passed onto the relevant police department of their state.
Essentially the main idea is that people can submit video evidence showing the make/model/rego of the car, and the alleged offence being committed and send it in to the police. The then have the potential to issue fines etc based on that.

Frequently asked questions
I'll try and address the most likely questions you may have before you even ask them here...

Q - If I'm driving and see someone texting while driving, are you expecting me to whip out my smartphone and record them while I'm driving?
A - Obviously not... If you submitted a video to police of someone using their phone while driving, and your video clearly showed that you were doing the exact same thing, that wouldn't be the greatest idea. :shock:
However I personally know of many situations where I've been a passenger in a vehicle and have had many opportunities to film someone in another vehicle doing something dangerous.

Q - Can the police actually issue fines etc as a direct result of this video evidence?
A - At this stage it's not that clear cut. There's a lot of legal mumbo jumbo surrounding the issue, but that's something for the police to figure out. The purpose of this exercise is to potentially inundate police with good quality evidence of these types of things so they simply cannot ignore it. It will also raise a lot of awareness through the media attention it will receive, and hopefully then change the rules so that the vast resource of proactive people with mobile cameras can be utilised.
We've all seen segments on the news of how someone has published footage of drag races, or people hooning and endangering lives, and straight away the Police are wanting to find the people in the video to talk to. It is definitely useful for them to have even if they don't directly lead to fines/charges on their own.

Q - When you submit a video, is it made public to name and shame the offenders?
A - No. Trust me when I started working on this project that was my intention. However it brings up a lot of issues legally, and to be honest I don't want to get sued. It's not youtube, the videos aren't going to be turned into an entertaining montage for a Worlds Worst Drivers TV show. When a video is submitted, it is passed onto the police and that's all.

Q - If there's no guarantee the police can directly use it, what's the point?
A - The idea is valid because I got in contact with some senior members of the QLD Police, who told me that they were working on an identical idea. Now in saying that they are so far away from getting their version online it's ridiculous. I pretty much designed and built my website in about 2 days, so there's a useful centralised resource for anyone in Australia to use right now.

Anyway hopefully that answers your most likely questions. I'm sure I've probably overlooked some. The reality is that people submit video evidence to the police all the time, this website simply provides a centralised place for people to do it. It also will help raise awareness and show that the public are wanting safe roads, and an annual road toll of zero!

There are some very prominent news organisations who are eager to do a story on this ASAP, and all I need is to collect a few more video submissions from people. I figured that cyclists would potentially be strong supporters of the idea, and that some of you may already have some examples of videos that you might be able to submit :) Look forward to discussing it all with you guys.
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by BNA » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:37 pm

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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby jules21 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:37 pm

i don't think you can submit a complaint to police on someone else's behalf - the police won't accept it, i would have thought.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby Oxford » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:19 pm

jules21 wrote:i don't think you can submit a complaint to police on someone else's behalf - the police won't accept it, i would have thought.

depends on the individual states and the situation/incident, some states have to have a complainant to proceed, others the state can take the place of the complainant and proceed without permission of the wronged party.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby jules21 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:27 pm

Oxford wrote:depends on the individual states and the situation/incident, some states have to have a complainant to proceed, others the state can take the place of the complainant and proceed without permission of the wronged party.

i've gotta say, i find that hard to comprehend. a fundamental requirement of prosecuting someone on the basis of video evidence would surely always be establishing the provenance of the video. i would have imagined that would normally require someone to verify its authenticity. i would have imagined that a website administrator accepting videos online would struggle to do that - how would they know someone didn't download something off YouTube and send it in as a prank?
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby Oxford » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:42 pm

jules21 wrote:
Oxford wrote:depends on the individual states and the situation/incident, some states have to have a complainant to proceed, others the state can take the place of the complainant and proceed without permission of the wronged party.

i've gotta say, i find that hard to comprehend. a fundamental requirement of prosecuting someone on the basis of video evidence would surely always be establishing the provenance of the video. i would have imagined that would normally require someone to verify its authenticity. i would have imagined that a website administrator accepting videos online would struggle to do that - how would they know someone didn't download something off YouTube and send it in as a prank?

police will not proceed unless they can confirm the veracity of the evidence with which they wish to prosecute. so even if they could proceed without an official complaint, the evidence would have to carry that much weight that they would in their own mind be confident of gaining a conviction outcome. that's why even with video evidence and what I/we seemingly see as intent to harm by a motorist and a willing complainant (me), happy to go the whole way, the police will still not proceed as they are not confident of gaining a favorable result.

I've even had them say yes we could get a result, but the other party may also lodge a complaint against you that you have to defend and we figured you did not want to have to defend a complaint brought against you by the other party.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby LemonChip » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:50 pm

Hey all, sorry it's been a few days but I must have forgotten to select "notify me" when there were replies... Really happy that you guys seem interested in the topic of discussion. As I said, and it seems you lot are more up to speed with it than me, there's a lot of legal mumbo jumbo involved, but the core purpose of the exercise is to try and raise awareness of the issue, and possibly try and cause some changes to happen :)

So anyway if you folks have any questions to throw at me feel free...

Also can someone tell me how to edit my signature?
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:14 pm

Look for the user control panel link, it's usually at the upper left. Select the Profile tab then find the edit signature link from there. You're good to go.

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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby Mrfenejeans » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:42 am

Personally as a cyclist and a motorist, I'd like to think that Cyclists use their cameras for insurance "just in case an accident occurs" or just out of curiosity, not to go out actively with the sole purpose to name and shame drivers.

I've seen cyclists or people on bikes rather do some pretty stupid and dangerous things as well.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby Oxford » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:36 pm

Mrfenejeans wrote:Personally as a cyclist and a motorist, I'd like to think that Cyclists use their cameras for insurance "just in case an accident occurs" or just out of curiosity, not to go out actively with the sole purpose to name and shame drivers.

I've seen cyclists or people on bikes rather do some pretty stupid and dangerous things as well.

precisely, for the most part I used my DVRs for that purpose and any behaviour that I thought was dangerous and potentially life threatening (particularly towards myself). occasionally I would post videos for interest or discussion purposes. I am thankful for having the DVR evidence from my accident last year as I can see the insurance company is already trying to assign blame to me, my lawyer is about to give them the video. I'm also turning up the heat on the police as the witness and driver statements vary from reality and the DVR audio gives comprehensive evidence of what actually transpired. will be interesting to hear what they have to say after they become aware of the video. I will if necessary push all the way to have the driver charged, simply to take the wind out of the insurer's sails.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby LemonChip » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:54 pm

Wow that's a pretty excellent use of the technology! It must give you a strong feeling of confidence being armed with the video evidence. I hope your accident wasn't too severe.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby jules21 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:05 pm

Mrfenejeans wrote:Personally as a cyclist and a motorist, I'd like to think that Cyclists use their cameras for insurance "just in case an accident occurs" or just out of curiosity, not to go out actively with the sole purpose to name and shame drivers.

the camera records what it records. if drivers shame themselves, it's not my or the camera's fault.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby LemonChip » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:16 pm

Would any of you guys be willing to share any incidents you've recorded with me? Is that an inappropriate questions to ask? :|
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby Oxford » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:32 pm

LemonChip wrote:Wow that's a pretty excellent use of the technology! It must give you a strong feeling of confidence being armed with the video evidence. I hope your accident wasn't too severe.

well as fine as spinal injuries can go, I can still walk (and ride) even if in pain when doing it.

yes, very satisfied, particularly when I read the witness and driver accounts of events, knowing full well my recollection was based on what actually happened. my lawyer nearly wet his pants when I told him I had it. front and rear vision, really wish I could see the look on the insurance company's faces when they see it.

to answer your other post, I will load up some videos, possibly tonight actually, just need to sort through my collection. if you hadn't guessed by the avatar picture, I'm also on MTBDirt (X).
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby LemonChip » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:40 pm

Amazing. Really appreciated your input. It's satisfying even for me to read about how the video helped you in this instance, though I am sorry that it had to happen to you in the first place.

No I didn't realise you were in MTB Dirt, hope you don't feel like I'm spamming too much :oops:
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby Oxford » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:50 pm

LemonChip wrote:...

No I didn't realise you were in MTB Dirt, hope you don't feel like I'm spamming too much :oops:

no, you need to get the word out on as many forums as possible. :mrgreen:

I used DVRs (past tense as I do not cycle commute anymore) because of a legal issue a few years back. back then, my then lawyer (different one) asked if I had video evidence, that's what spurred me to investigate and use DVR's. so glad I did now, no "he said/she said" crap. its what I said happened and here's the proof of it, say whatever you like so long as it matches the video. :mrgreen:
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby zero » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:26 pm

LemonChip wrote:Would any of you guys be willing to share any incidents you've recorded with me? Is that an inappropriate questions to ask? :|


I'd rather stick them on youtube myself. In the unlikely event anything I filmed becomes famous, I'd prefer to earn the ad revenue myself, and have it placed in a position where the copyright is still clear, and I can pull it down myself, and where there is sufficient bandwidth to host whatever traffic might come.

I personally think in an actual collision situation (whether or not I was just a witness), I would not be putting evidence up on the internet, unless it was (a) serious and (b) the police prosecutor was failing to act.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby LemonChip » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:52 pm

Fair enough. I guess at this point I'm trying to collect some examples because ACA is waiting to do a story on the idea... But I need to get a couple of sample submissions for the tv segment first.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby cp123 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:02 pm

Hey Ox - blaming you???? :x I don't think you ever said what actually happened, but if your video shows you being the competent (and safe) rider you probably are, i hope you blast them with both barrells.


Its always blame the victim isn't it..... :roll:
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby Oxford » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:18 pm

cp123 wrote:Hey Ox - blaming you???? :x I don't think you ever said what actually happened, but if your video shows you being the competent (and safe) rider you probably are, i hope you blast them with both barrells.


Its always blame the victim isn't it..... :roll:

well as my lawyer said, they have to make the initial claim blaming me for some of it, he reckons once they see the video they change position as they would not want something like that coming out in a court trial. we'll see what happens. in a nutshell, the driver approached from behind aggressively, horn blaring. realised I was staying in the lane, tried to pass (had indicator on), misjudged and accelerated straight into me. waiting to see what the police have/are done/doing as I will be pushing for TINs which will kill the insurance company position in one fell swoop.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby KonaCommuter » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:00 pm

Oxford wrote:
cp123 wrote:Hey Ox - blaming you???? :x I don't think you ever said what actually happened, but if your video shows you being the competent (and safe) rider you probably are, i hope you blast them with both barrells.


Its always blame the victim isn't it..... :roll:

well as my lawyer said, they have to make the initial claim blaming me for some of it, he reckons once they see the video they change position as they would not want something like that coming out in a court trial. we'll see what happens. in a nutshell, the driver approached from behind aggressively, horn blaring. realised I was staying in the lane, tried to pass (had indicator on), misjudged and accelerated straight into me. waiting to see what the police have/are done/doing as I will be pushing for TINs which will kill the insurance company position in one fell swoop.



Get them to write a statutory declaration witnessed by a Justice of the Peace. Lying on a stat dec can lead to gaol time :wink:
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby cp123 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:26 pm

what a gyp. seriously on that description (and on his actions) what "defence" does he have? He hit you - fair and square. Or i guess you were ducking and weaving and happened to wobble in front of him.... :x


Dunno if you had any witnesses to say they saw him driving like a twat, but you get him! :twisted: It shouldn't have to take someone to be injured and broken (with video evidence) to get him to own up and act responsibly.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby Aushiker » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:37 pm

jules21 wrote:
Mrfenejeans wrote:Personally as a cyclist and a motorist, I'd like to think that Cyclists use their cameras for insurance "just in case an accident occurs" or just out of curiosity, not to go out actively with the sole purpose to name and shame drivers.

the camera records what it records. if drivers shame themselves, it's not my or the camera's fault.


Well said. Bit over this oh you use a camera so you must chase down incidents etc rubbish because yeah I want that semi from last Friday to get as close as possible and put my life at risk and on it goes :roll:

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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby Oxford » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:13 am

Aushiker wrote:
jules21 wrote:
Mrfenejeans wrote:Personally as a cyclist and a motorist, I'd like to think that Cyclists use their cameras for insurance "just in case an accident occurs" or just out of curiosity, not to go out actively with the sole purpose to name and shame drivers.

the camera records what it records. if drivers shame themselves, it's not my or the camera's fault.


Well said. Bit over this oh you use a camera so you must chase down incidents etc rubbish because yeah I want that semi from last Friday to get as close as possible and put my life at risk and on it goes :roll:

Andrew

yep I'm over the militant tags and crap descriptions. I don't regret using cameras at all after my incident last year. but guess what, I bet the driver is going to be ashamed when they realise their shocking behavior and lack of patience and poor attitude is revealed. my cameras only have to reveal the truth about one situation like this to pay off. just got to get motivated to set up the cam on the moto, some of the crap I see now is mind boggling. almost as bad as on the bicycle.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby diggler » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:54 pm

I've always been a big fan of video evidence but the cops are too stupid or lazy to do anything about it.

In theory, the maker of the video should be called as a witness to testify that they made the video, but that is merely a formality. The video speaks for itself.

The problem is, the police don't get that. I had the misfortune of trying to pursue a matter and having to make a witness statement describing the event. This was totally superfluous because everything was already on the video.

The cops have been trained in a a certain way and they have #(AT)$%&^%$ for brains about something that doesn't fit into their regular box.
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Re: Road Toll Zero

Postby diggler » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:01 am

jules21 wrote:i don't think you can submit a complaint to police on someone else's behalf - the police won't accept it, i would have thought.



I don't know what you mean by someone else's behalf. If you film someone texting, you're not doing it on behalf of anybody. If anything, you are doing it on behalf of society which is fair enough because the criminal law is there to protect society.

If you film a car hitting a parked car in a minor incident, then I guess you are filming on their behalf. Don't see why it would be any different to a normal witness statement when you see someone hit a parked car.
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