"Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby martinjs » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:39 pm

il padrone wrote:So folks down home in the country don't get electric power? Don't use gas? Don't use water?

Well wahoo, whadya know. Those cars driving 80kms to get a pack of ciggies and put down a few schooners must be all running on solar cells too I guess :?

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Water, we use water, my drinking water all comes as nature intended, from the sky. Catch it in the gutters and into a tank via gravity feed. Uses a lot less energy. As for Electricity, it comes from the country so natually we use it. :lol:
No denying the pull of the cities and they are here to stay. I really enjoy my stays in Melbourne when I visit, I personally just wouldn't live there again, been there, done that!

Not trying to start a city v country war of words. Just pointing out that by far the biggest user of resources in this world is the cities.
Surely we all agree there is far to much waste generated from all elements of society, but the biggest amount per head of population comes from the cities. Fact not fiction. :( but we are not innocent in the country, the one thing the cities have go over us is the recycling programs. I've talked to many who are disappointed we can't take our electronic waste to a special recycling centre.
Thinks are changing but still have a way to go.


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by BNA » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:32 pm

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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby il padrone » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:32 pm

martinjs wrote:Not trying to start a city v country war of words. Just pointing out that by far the biggest user of resources in this world is the cities.

Overall the biggest users of resources is people, mostly those from developed nations.

Not too sure about overall resource consumption, but when you look at energy consumption it is generally the densely populated cities that are consuming far less energy per capita than low density (eg. country) living. Transport (of all things) is a major part of this higher per capita energy use. It's all that driving about to get to town, to get to work and to visit friends. Most of the goods people rely on come from factories, warehouses or ports in..... cities. It may have been transported there from the country, then gets transported back as processed goods. A symptom of the specialisation of labour in our modern world. Whether you 'blame' the city or country people for this, I don't know :?

Don't like it? Go back to a peasant economy then.

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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby martinjs » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:54 pm

Na, not likely, I love my tech, wouldn't be a computer tech otherwise. Just believe we can do it better and it must start in the cities. Mass production makes change possible but we've got to get people with vision. Not the clowns we have running our counties now.

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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby il padrone » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:37 pm

martinjs wrote:Just believe we can do it better and it must start in the cities. Mass production makes change possible

There's the rub. Mass production is a city thing....... relies on large specialised labour forces (still, even with robotics) and can only exist if there are mass markets, preferably global markets. Country living is all very fine as an ideal, but it's awfully hard to get away from the need for large urban centres in our global industrial world. And as I mentioned, urban living is generally more energy efficient, unless we go back to a form of peasant life where no-one ever travels much more than 20kms from their home (maybe 80-100 with a bike)
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby RonK » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:38 pm

martinjs wrote:Were do you think the power comes from? and the food and the water?

Have a little chuckle to myself every time I see statements about how the country produces the food. This is of course self-evident, and equally self-evident is that the trucks, tractors and machinery, the fertilizers, the fuel, and most of the many other inputs that go into farm production are produced in the cities.

I worked for quite few years farming, dairying and raising beef cattle, and later as a council worker in a Queensland country town. It aways seemed to me quite ironic that the people had made a lifestyle choice to live in the country and swore they would never live in the city, but moaned endlessly about the perceived inequities suffered by the "man on the land".

Ultimately we all live in the same society, we are all consumers, and I don't believe for one minute that country folk use any less energy or generate any less waste than people who live in the city.

There are benefits to be enjoyed from both lifestyles, and there are certain times in life and career that the balance tips one way or the other.
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby martinjs » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:32 am

RonK wrote:
martinjs wrote:Were do you think the power comes from? and the food and the water?

Have a little chuckle to myself every time I see statements about how the country produces the food. This is of course self-evident, and equally self-evident is that the trucks, tractors and machinery, the fertilizers, the fuel, and most of the many other inputs that go into farm production are produced in the cities.

I worked for quite few years farming, dairying and raising beef cattle, and later as a council worker in a Queensland country town. It aways seemed to me quite ironic that the people had made a lifestyle choice to live in the country and swore they would never live in the city, but moaned endlessly about the perceived inequities suffered by the "man on the land".

Ultimately we all live in the same society, we are all consumers, and I don't believe for one minute that country folk use any less energy or generate any less waste than people who live in the city.

There are benefits to be enjoyed from both lifestyles, and there are certain times in life and career that the balance tips one way or the other.


I wouldn't disagree with most of what you and Pete have said. Me I'm a little different than most as I grew up in a rural town that became a rural city then moved and work in Melbourne for just on 15 years. So I know the benefits and the down sides of both.

As a computer tech I could have looked forward to a high paying job in the city, but chose to move to a country area. I do see the downsides and the lack of services and they DO exist. I except that and now own a property that is no linked to town water so we rely on tank water for drinking and irrigation channels and the brown water for showering and washing clothes.

Would I change that?, Not bloody likely (although I do resent paying the amount of money I do for the privilege of having brown water to bath in, but that's another story).

As for energy use, I do think the cities (not necessarily the individuals) use more energy per person than country towns. The simple matter of buildings having lights on all day everyday, the fact of 24 hour shopping centres (we don't have that thankfully) massive sporting venues that are operating more and more at night. 24 hour this and that, surely you can't disagree with that?

I remember when I lived in Reservoir in Melbourne's northern suburbs, if I had the munchies at say 1.00am in the morning I had choice, supermarket, KFC or Macca's. Here we don't have that except I think on the weekends when the local macca's stays open all night. Do I miss it? not likely.

As already stated, there are positive things about the cities that us country people can learn from but the same is also possible. in reverse.

Why do you think I hang around this forum? I like hearing from the cities, I have family's in 3 of them after all.
I just feel that we have to be a bit more careful about growing our cities at all costs.

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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby il padrone » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:55 pm

martinjs wrote:As for energy use, I do think the cities (not necessarily the individuals) use more energy per person than country towns. The simple matter of buildings having lights on all day everyday, the fact of 24 hour shopping centres (we don't have that thankfully) massive sporting venues that are operating more and more at night. 24 hour this and that, surely you can't disagree with that?

I don't accept that this is accurate at all. I don't know for sure what is more/less efficient, but evidence like the data here (admittedly US info) suggests otherwise.

Don't look at the very visible tall buildings with lights on, get aggregate data and calculate the per capita energy use. Everything I've studied on this topic over many years (I'm a geographer/economist) suggests that cities are overall more efficient per capita. As one person has said, desnsity brings efficiency.
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby martinjs » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:17 pm

il padrone wrote:
martinjs wrote:As for energy use, I do think the cities (not necessarily the individuals) use more energy per person than country towns. The simple matter of buildings having lights on all day everyday, the fact of 24 hour shopping centres (we don't have that thankfully) massive sporting venues that are operating more and more at night. 24 hour this and that, surely you can't disagree with that?

I don't accept that this is accurate at all. I don't know for sure what is more/less efficient, but evidence like the data here (admittedly US info) suggests otherwise.

Don't look at the very visible tall buildings with lights on, get aggregate data and calculate the per capita energy use. Everything I've studied on this topic over many years (I'm a geographer/economist) suggests that cities are overall more efficient per capita. As one person has said, desnsity brings efficiency.


Oh no, a number cruncher, that explains a lot. Nothing personal but I don't have a lot of faith in the economist part of you job. The world is run by number crunchers now days and just look at it. :lol:

Does that mean we should close down the farms and the mines and all move to the city? That might just be the answer to all our prays. :lol: :wink:

Lot of people in the remote areas are already very close to being fully self sufficient, ie solar energy, tanked water, grow most of their own food. That's the sort of energy efficiency we need, some overseas cities have started down that road but they are few and far between.

As for you claims well who knows, I find it hard to believe that cities that never stop are more energy efficient that small towns that turn most things off at night. But rather than go on in a never ending cycle of debate, I think it's better to agree to disagree.
Really don't want to turn this in to city v country. At this stage in our development both are necessary.

It is interesting to note that a lot of early civilisations actually collapsed and that one on the main causes was the cities got to big to support themselves. Hopefully technology can beat that otherwise we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes of the past.

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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby martinjs » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:34 pm

It also just occurred to me, that if the cities are so bloody great, why is it that every weekend and especially the long weekends, is every road leading out of the cities packed bumper to bumper for hours. :lol: :P :P :P

Oh I remember those days, while first living in Melbourne my kids still lived in Bendigo, every weekend lots of traffic leading out of town. The long weekends were shockers, and then coming back in after the long weekends. Sometimes took 2 to 4 hours to cover the last 50k's.

Yes indeed those were the days. :P :P :P :P :P :P

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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby il padrone » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:24 pm

martinjs wrote:Oh no, a number cruncher, that explains a lot. Nothing personal but I don't have a lot of faith in the economist part of you job. The world is run by number crunchers now days and just look at it. :lol:

If you don't want to rely on data and number-crunching that's your choice. What is left? Blind faith? :o

martinjs wrote:Does that mean we should close down the farms and the mines and all move to the city? :wink:

Where-did-I-ever-say-this ??????

I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth.

martinjs wrote:It is interesting to note that a lot of early civilisations actually collapsed and that one on the main causes was the cities got to big to support themselves.

Can you cite me some references for this?
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby martinjs » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:53 pm

il padrone wrote:
martinjs wrote:Oh no, a number cruncher, that explains a lot. Nothing personal but I don't have a lot of faith in the economist part of you job. The world is run by number crunchers now days and just look at it. :lol:

If you don't want to rely on data and number-crunching that's your choice. What is left? Blind faith? :o

martinjs wrote:Does that mean we should close down the farms and the mines and all move to the city? :wink:

Where-did-I-ever-say-this ??????

I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth.

martinjs wrote:It is interesting to note that a lot of early civilisations actually collapsed and that one on the main causes was the cities got to big to support themselves.

Can you cite me some references for this?


Nope, not blind faith, combination of numbers, common sense and some faith. Numbers by themselves can be misleading.

Sorry second point was meant to be a joke, wasn't for a minute trying to put words in your mouth.

Third point, sorry but I'm a big watcher of documentary's and remember this one coming up in particular more than once, I think the last one was a doco on the Aztec or the Inca's.
They concluded that the cities got so big and populating so large, that not only was the cities swallowing up the good agricultural land but the effort in carrying the food and supplies so far caused it to collapsed from the inside.

Although our methods are so much better there are similarities to what happened to them and what's happening to us. ie Cities and mines cutting into good Agricultural land and more and more stress on the transport system everyday.
I think (and hope) we have the maturity to work our way through the problems, but then I see our leaders and cringe.

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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby open roader » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Enlightening and entertaining debate gentlemen.....

The city / country relationship is largely symbiotic, both rely upon the other for sustainability ......... for better or worse.

I still say the countryside is the best place to ride a bike...... :D
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby martinjs » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:46 pm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-15/a ... th/3831396

Interesting article on ants hills and how they can only grow so big.
Some parallels in it regarding us human. Make of it as you will. :D

I concur, ridding in the country is better and I've done the both. Seems Pete too likes riding in the country based on his interesting post on his travels. Love to do some of those areas. :D

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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby tcdev » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:59 pm

I grew up in the city and I've come to hate it. Way too many people, nowhere near enough infrastructure, high living expenses. Hate it.

My sister recently moved to Kingscliff and is building a house well within walking distance to the beach. Her husband brokered a deal with his company to work from home, since most of his team are in the US anyway. He wakes up, has breakfast with the kids, rides his bike with his daughter in tow to daycare, then rides back home and starts work. Soon-to-be new dream house near the sea, no traffic, no crowds, easy pace of life. Something I yearn for.

The down-side - they've had difficulty meeting new friends. Admittedly they're in a new development that will likely fill out with young families in the next few years, but they've been up there for about 18 months now and they have met very few people that they have anything in common with. It's the only thing they miss from the city - they were never part of the cafe/theatre crowd. Drinks with friends in the pub perhaps, a BBQ, and camping every other weekend.

My wife & I have discussed a similar move but it's just not on the cards atm. My work as an electronics design engineer keeps me in a capital city, unfortunately. Ditto for my wife, a lawyer, unless she's willing to do wills and conveyancing, which she certainly is not. She's also very concerned - perhaps more-so than me - about the compatibility of people in non-city areas as well. She also questions the standard of education in schools outside the city (not saying her concerns are justified). We're not cafe-goers or anything either, and eat out perhaps once a month, but she's adamant that she will miss that aspect of the city. I'm not so sure I would, so I'm torn. I see how comfortable my country born-and-raised cousin is, how laid-back the lifestyle is, and I'm - quite frankly - jealous. Not to mention the bicycling!
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby silentbutdeadly » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:20 pm

Truth be told is that if all you can imagine is the potential negatives without also imagining the workaround options then even considering the move...even the idea of the move...is not a good idea.

Even as a single bloke at the time, it took me five years of thinking/planning/trying to get out of Sydney. That was 14 years ago and the life I have now is wildly different to not only the one I had but the one I could've had. For me, it has been a great move. Actually, a great move twice since I have switched towns since the escape (another big move). I have more friends now than I ever had in the Big Smoke.

Moving to a new place is never straightforward and here in the Great Nowhere even more so but the biggest mistake that many newbies make is thinking that the new life will come to them the way they are rather than realising that the new life requires them to actually be something different to what they were and get out there and grab what is on offer. City folk don't have much in common with country folk...but if the city folk don't live in the city any more then what are they? They can't have it both ways...;)
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby silentC » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:44 pm

I lived in Sydney from October 1986 until March 2003. In 2003, my wife, two kids and myself moved down here to the far south coast. I grew up here and have family and friends here so it was easy for me. Not so easy for my wife. She was also born a country girl but had become very much a city girl and she missed her friends and the way of life badly for about 18 months. I would probably not get her back to Sydney now, other than for a visit. The best view of Sydney for me now is in the rear view mirror :)

Regarding 'compatibility' of country people, I must say I find that an odd and, dare I say it, slightly pretentious point of view. Having spent as much time in Sydney as I have, there are as many bogans there as anywhere else. I suppose it depends on where you go, but definitely where I live, we are every bit as cosmopolitan as city people, without the neuroses :)

This may be because the area in which I live has a good mix of born and bred locals, sea/tree changers, and people like myself who have had the best of both worlds. We may not have the resources of the city when it comes to culture, but we do have groups of people who do their best to bring art, music, theatre, food and any other form of culture you can think of to the area.

Personally I find it a bit too much and I preferred the place the way it was three decades ago but that's progress and people seem to want to come here and bring their way of life with them from the city. I suppose you have to take the good with the bad.

We have good schools here. My kids both go to a private school, which is less than 5 minutes drive from home (they walk/catch the bus). The fees are a fraction of what you pay in the city. One of the top ATARs in NSW last year was a local student.

So I would say to anyone concerned that their social life is going to suffer, if that's the only thing stopping you from moving to the country, get over it :) Living away from the big cities has very few disadvantages and plenty going for it. But you have to give it a go. And it will very much depend on where you go and what you do.

Cycling-wise, when I go for my morning rides, I hardly see another soul. One guy I do bump into regularly is the bloke with the huskies. He hooks them up to a harness and gives them a run on his skateboard. If I time it right, I get to give them a race (OK their top speed is 30 but I pretend) and it's a great start to the day and not something I'd expect to encounter in Sydney. There are literally miles and miles of road with very little traffic. And there's a group of a dozen or so cyclists who ride nearly every day of the week, so plenty of opportunity to get in on a group ride.

But it's not for everyone, so make sure it's what you want to do, be prepared for it to take a year or more to find your feet properly, and don't burn your bridges :)
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby barefoot » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:17 pm

tcdev wrote:My wife & I have discussed a similar move but it's just not on the cards atm. My work as an electronics design engineer keeps me in a capital city, unfortunately. Ditto for my wife, a lawyer, unless she's willing to do wills and conveyancing, which she certainly is not. She's also very concerned - perhaps more-so than me - about the compatibility of people in non-city areas as well. She also questions the standard of education in schools outside the city (not saying her concerns are justified). We're not cafe-goers or anything either, and eat out perhaps once a month, but she's adamant that she will miss that aspect of the city. I'm not so sure I would, so I'm torn. I see how comfortable my country born-and-raised cousin is, how laid-back the lifestyle is, and I'm - quite frankly - jealous. Not to mention the bicycling!


Don't skim over the middle option, between small town country living and big capital cities. A lot can be said for living in a smaller city.

I grew up in suburban Sydney, moved out of home and straight to Melbourne when I was 21. About 6 years later, took a job in Ballarat. Coming up to 12 years here now... it's been very good to us.

I'd assume other small cities or "regional centres" would be similar. We're about 100k people - slightly smaller but in the same ballpark as Wollongong and Newcastle, slightly bigger (I think) than Townsville, Cairns and the other QLD cities. Smaller than Canberra, surprisingly not much smaller than Darwin, bigger than Bathurst and Tamworth.

We've got all the cafes and restaurants of a good part of a capital city. We've got theatres and art galleries. We've got shops and schools (three Aldis, about a dozen supermarkets, Bunnings and Masters, two high-end private schools, a few mid-tier and about half a dozen public high schools). Two hospitals. Mostly in walking distance, certainly in riding distance.

Anything you can't get here, you can get 120km down the road in Melbourne... it's close enough to drive down to meet friends for dinner.

And yet... I can be riding through farmland, 10 minutes from my front gate. State forest within 15 minutes by bike.

We're about an hour from the beach... but I was about an hour from the beach living in the SW suburbs of Sydney, too. I'd say Melbourne is an hour from the beach, for that matter... the bay really doesn't count.

Best of most worlds here.

The thing you most miss out on in a small city is employment options. There are jobs to be had, but when you're in a population 1/50th the size of a capital city, you have to deal with there being 1/50th as many job options. Fine when you're in a job, not so easy to move on to the next thing when the time comes. Then it's easy to find yourself trapped... unless you're flexible and willing to uproot to move somewhere else altogether.

Worth considering a small city as an option.

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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby silentbutdeadly » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:23 pm

Yeah but Ballarat? Half the time, it'd be warmer living in a fridge... :)
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby silentC » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:29 pm

Not too warm here at the moment either, it has to be said :)
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby macca33 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:13 pm

silentbutdeadly wrote:Yeah but Ballarat? Half the time, it'd be warmer living in a fridge... :)


After today, even your chest freezer would've been a tad warmer than the 'rat!!! Hahahaha
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby barefoot » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:50 pm

macca33 wrote:
silentbutdeadly wrote:Yeah but Ballarat? Half the time, it'd be warmer living in a fridge... :)


After today, even your chest freezer would've been a tad warmer than the 'rat!!! Hahahaha


Bah. We cracked right through the 4dgC mark briefly today! :lol:

Note that I was spruicking for small cities in general... not Ballarat in particular. There are options other than metropoles or one-street country towns.
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby Tim » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:01 pm

Yeh, love the bush.
Out here we got huntin, shootin, drinkin, fightin, rootin, fishin, loggin, minin, 4WDrivin and motor bike ridin.
It's grouse.
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:30 pm

Hell when my parents first took up farming out here in the 70s they still had a manual telephone exchange in town. Mind you there were also about 50 dairy farms in the district, and now there are none :( .

There's a lot of ups and downs to living in the country, but overall it's definitely better than living in town.
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:19 pm

I happen to like cities. And engaging with people I meet in them. I plan to move from the inner burbs to inner city in my not-too-distant retirement.

Perhaps the country riders are all too busy actually riding to post on forums. :mrgreen:
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Re: "Bah, humbug!" to city posts!

Postby WarrenH » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:19 pm

If I can say one thing ... one shouldn't consider leaving a Big Smoke, if they're only concerned about maintaining the Big Smoke status. It is safer staying in a Big Smoke. Why would you want to risk anything? ... in the country, one gets dirty, is often overly practical, stays somewhat rough at the edges and has intercourse with bumpkin.

Four days ago, I climbed a hill ... to check out some snow. It was nice. It was very windy though, the gusts were hammering to 50 knots. That made holding my cameras rather difficult ... but one learns to adapt, to be good enough for rural.

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When I'd had enough of the wind, messing up my boofy coiffure, I dropped down a tad about 500m and I met a cyclist who didn't even notice my dishevelled look, or he kindly didn't comment ... we then discussed how vertically descending winds affect water.

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A non-big-city-life, for those who can cope with having the space to swing two cats, is most pleasant.

Warren.
"But on steep descending...Larson TT have bad effect on the mind of a rider" - MadRider from Suji, Korea 2001.

"Paved roads ... another fine example of wasteful government spending." - a bumper sticker.
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WarrenH
 
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Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 3:58 am

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