Ride To-and-Fro School Incidents: Your car is not a weapon

[CommuRider]

I got her!

This morning's school run and going to review the footage now.

Advice on how to report this woman in a formal complaint to the police much appreciated.

[CommuRider]

Excuse the hair:



AT 72 MZ

Silver Subaru, station wagon.

She didn't slow down but sped along. Video just has whoooooooooooosh as she passed us.

Reading the first post, I can't rely on the short-term memory anymore. Subaru not Holden and more importantly, a clear footage of the rego.

[CommuRider]

see my template sticky, really play up the safety aspect, children, school area etc etc and send it to a commissioner and CC in the local and state members, trust me something is bound to happen and it will be little missy subaru that pays the price.

Thanks Ox. I'm trying to print all the documents I made about this. Just rang 131 444 - the general police assistance hotline. They told me to go to a police station and report the person. I'm bringing my laptop in so they can view the video.

[find_bruce]

If you have a DVD burner, giving them a copy of the relevant raw footage on DVD would also assist.

[Xplora]

Is that the same person? Can't see any vid at work.

[CommuRider]

Ok...spent most of the morning typing up my letter and statement (which ran to 7 pages) thanks to Ox's template (thanks OX! it's good practice). Went down to the local police station and spent half an hour with the Constable.

Ok, there is NO LEGAL requirement in terms of distance of how far a car can be close to you. I didn't know that, but I do now. So despite said car was half a metre from my son's wheels, she was still within her legal rights (!!!). Remember the 3 second rule? It doesn't apply. Maybe highways and motorways have a more definite legal definition but they can be 10 cm away from you and it still won't matter.

In the end, Constable said it was going to be very hard to take Thursday's incident to court, even to issue to her a ticket over it as she could dispute it in court and people have been getting off lately and overturning their tickets. There is no footage of Thursday's incident, so it will come to she said/she said version.

More importantly, said driver of Subaru lives in the street - so from my POV she should have known better but more likely we will see her again on our rides. Helmet cam on all the time. He said he will talk to her over the next couple of days, they take this seriously etc but he made me sign a note saying I won't take legal action over this incident, which is probably fair enough but he said if it happens again to ring the local number or 000. He did ask me if I was being followed by her and I said no, but as there is some written complaint against her they can now pull up if she does it again. So watch out for the Subaru peeps!

I did emphasise my son's safety over this that I wanted prevention and threatening a kid on a bike ain't going to make us go faster just because you get delayed for a minute.

So we shall see and Ox's note of what I wanted, I said to charge her with threatening behaviour towards my son, the Constable said it won't hold much up especially as I said there's no footage of it. I left my statement with the Constable and I guesss from his POV it will be event closed.

Lesson #1 from this: if you are riding on the road for any or all part of your commute/ride whether you are going shopping, dropping your kid off at school, quick leisure ride, GET A VIDEO CAMERA.

Lesson #2: Be prepared, have your statements ready, visuals ready.

[CommuRider]

Is that the same person? Can't see any vid at work.

It's only a screenshot. I have a vid of this morning as she speeds past us but there was adequate room in the street (it's quite narrow when cars are parked on both sides) and we slowed down so she could pass us.

As opposed on Thursday when she was caught behind us and was sitting on our wheels. So today's footage is not much use am afraid.

[CommuRider]

any outcome that has the police responding to the driver and letting the driver know that what they did is not acceptable is a good outcome. you cannot "win" them all, but you will get to the point where you know what to bother with and not to bother with. the template is a summary of the best I could come up with, but any additions/suggestions are appreciated.

Imho, it is the best template we currently have available to report incidents. I was working on 2 pages then it went to 7 pages when I started working through your template

However, there were things I had not considered such as a screenshot of the location and the remedy section. I did pause a bit whether I wanted to go through court and whether I wanted the driver charged. I eventually thought yes, I want this driver charged for threatening the life of my son. However, when I spoke to the constable, we talked about the possibility of court action and while he wasn't against it, he did say that my son may have to present evidence and be cross-examined. As he wasn't really aware of what was happening to us, he would make a poor witness. So for now, the vid cam will have to be my other witness.

So Ox, another satisfied customer with your template. Peeps can assess whether their incident is serious enough because it will take more than 2 pages to write things up and will be a precursor to the court process. Only suggestion I can make to the template is if there's any video evidence, to bring one's laptop or a playback screen so the cops can see the footage. The police station didn't have our tech gadgets (it is a govt dept after all), they didn't have an SD reader (!) and I realised I have to provide EVERYTHING so the onus of proof is on the complainant. The other is dress code. I wore my suit to the police station (and sorry to say this peeps but cops are vain) and they treated my complaint with the seriousness and respect it deserved. (NB think about why lawyers are dressed thus)

Hope the idiot who tried to push your daughter gets a big serving of karma.

[hannos]

Ok, there is NO LEGAL requirement in terms of distance of how far a car can be close to you. I didn't know that, but I do now. So despite said car was half a metre from my son's wheels, she was still within her legal rights (!!!).

Actually, i think there is.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/ ... /s126.html

Keeping a safe distance behind vehicles
126 Keeping a safe distance behind vehicles

A driver must drive a sufficient distance behind a vehicle travelling in front of the driver so the driver can, if necessary, stop safely to avoid a collision with the vehicle.

Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

[CommuRider]

"Safe distance" is movable and can be broadly interpreted. No actual length

I think we need something similar to this thread

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=48994

Good info for the next incident. not only is the onus proof on the complainant, but traffic laws too. And here I was thinking of taking a tax course...might have to do traffic laws instead...

Edit: cop just rang to give me an update. Offender not at home. Will try later.

[zero]

The more you are around, the more she may drive sensibly in any case, and it doesn't hurt to keep bugging the cops about close passes. If nobody ever complains about close passes then the interpretations will never change.

[Mulger bill]

Well done Commie, no excuses for endangering a child. Keep on recording, dopey might decide to "show you" tomorrow, especially if Mr Plod doesn't mention the camera, just the complaint.

I think we need something similar to this thread

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=48994

I asked the favour of the more legislation savvy members in another thread and Inwood was the only one to stand up (Goodonyer mate)
I'd actually like to formulate state by state pocket sized cards with summaries and references to the legislation EG "Rule 123.4- Must use bikelane unless impracticable." and so on.

Might have to start a stand alone thread...

Shaun

[CommuRider]

I was asked if we were being stalked and I said no. It will be stalking from tomorrow onwards and now there's a record of the complaint I can build upon it if she doesn't modify her attitude and driving behaviour.

Re: pocket-sized legislation cards. Rome wasn't built in a day. we'll get there eventually.

[wombatK]

"Safe distance" is movable and can be broadly interpreted. No actual length

So why did he make you sign a note that you would not take legal action in relation to the incident ?

That rings my alarm bell and tells me that you've got some legal rights that have been transgressed.

How is it reasonable for a plod to ask anyone to sign away their legal rights without taking proper
legal advice first ? I'd be taking that question up with his supervisors.

Not sayin' he's not helping you, or that he is, but it's sure wrong to assume he's on your side.

FWIW, if it's intimidating you, it's not safe IMHO.

[CommuRider]

I made sure he amended it to waive the legal action for this incident only. I asked him if this signing meant I was precluding future action and he said no and this wasn't waiving my rights to future action.

Yes it did concern me a bit why he asked me to sign that note so I had to think fast on that spot and ask for that amendment. But he knows that If this person threatens us again I am not going to hesitate to bring up another incident report. I was also aware this was going to be she said/she said without physical evidence and the way they were asking me lots of questions I knew the burden of proof was on me.

In that light I can understand his position but I think he knows I am determined that this not happen again. I think he wanted to close the incident report without charge but just write up that he was going to talk to the offender. I do have his details and email so I know who to contact directly. I think the paperwork I gave him showed the seriousness of my intent.

Btw, has anyone else been asked to sign a waiver of a similar note?

[KenGS]

I recall being taught as a child that you can never sign away your rights.
My suspicion is that he wants to close the file but needs a statement from you that you don't intend to pursue it further. Covers him with his superiors in case you change your mind later.
Just a guess and IANAL

[Comedian]

I've taken the time to read this thread now. I really feel for you CR. I applaud what you've done and so on.

However reading this I can't help but think "what has our society come to?". You live 5-600m from school and in that short space you can be attacked by another human just for sport.

I'm in the position where we had been intending to get our kids to ride to school. We were thinking of giving it a go in the next little while. Our school is about 1km from home. We've got narrow footpaths only part of the way and often they are used as parking lots. You only have to cross one major road but the footpath is on the side of the road with lots of street crossings.

After having seen this and hearing X's story I'm really doubting whether it's worth the risk.

Having said that.. I often walk to another local school and fly a kite with them. We walked there a couple of weeks back and there was a road that had been grooved for surface preparation. When we walked that way one week later it had been resurfaced and my little boy pipes with "it's smooth now!". They get so much from the experience of getting out in the world but I won't risk their safety either. Hmmmm.

[CommuRider]

Comedian, all I can say is make sure your kids are close to you - dooring is an issue in the streets we cycle through, aside from grumpy selfish drivers - AND GET A VIDEO CAMERA!!! Be seen. When I used to cycle with the tricycle, drivers gave me a wider berth and space but since jr is now on two wheels there are a lot of factors that can come into play.

We only take less than 5 minutes...you will probably take 10 minutes to ride to school...and a lot can happen in those 10 minutes Just be prepared and be on the lookout constantly.

On the plus side, it's quality time riding with kids. Apart from exercise, you can point out all sorts of things in the neighbourhood, make them more aware. My neighbourhood is pretty cycle-friendly apart from people who have a personality change behind the wheels hence what I would have considered a low-risk activity is actually medium-risk.

At the end of the day, it is your lives and the risk assessment has to be made by you. If you don't feel confident, don't push yourself. You have your gut instincts as a parent and you know what's best for your family and situation.

[jules21]

Ok, there is NO LEGAL requirement in terms of distance of how far a car can be close to you. I didn't know that, but I do now. So despite said car was half a metre from my son's wheels, she was still within her legal rights (!!!). Remember the 3 second rule? It doesn't apply. Maybe highways and motorways have a more definite legal definition but they can be 10 cm away from you and it still won't matter.

hi CR, that's incorrect. did the policy officer say that to you?

the national rules (probably the same as in NSw) state that:

140 No overtaking unless safe to do so
A driver must not overtake a vehicle unless:
(a) the driver has a clear view of any approaching traffic; nd
(b) the driver can safely overtake the vehicle.

126 Keeping a safe distance behind vehicles
A driver must drive a sufficient distance behind a vehicle travelling in front of the driver so the driver can, if necessary, stop safely to avoid a collision with the vehicle.

although they don't specify exact distances, that does not mean there is no duty on motorists at all. it is up to the police officer to judge whether the provision has been breached. i would agree that it is impractical for the officer to do that, based solely on your testimony (which the driver would surely contradict). the answer is a camera, but don't accept any response that drivers can come as close as they like just because there is no numerical limit in the road rules. that's BS.

[CommuRider]

Ok, there is NO LEGAL requirement in terms of distance of how far a car can be close to you. I didn't know that, but I do now. So despite said car was half a metre from my son's wheels, she was still within her legal rights (!!!). Remember the 3 second rule? It doesn't apply. Maybe highways and motorways have a more definite legal definition but they can be 10 cm away from you and it still won't matter.

hi CR, that's incorrect. did the policy officer say that to you?
....
126 Keeping a safe distance behind vehicles
A driver must drive a sufficient distance behind a vehicle travelling in front of the driver so the driver can, if necessary, stop safely to avoid a collision with the vehicle.

He and his senior officer said the phrase "safe distance" - unsurprisingly - can be argued and subject to interpretation etc etc on what constituted safe. While they were sympathetic it was a 7 yo, there is nothing concrete in the law for now - in their view - that would provide a strong, solid action. Hence, no ticketing, no court action.

Lesson learnt for me is how vital a vid cam is to record incidents like this.

I suppose I could have argued she was tailgating...the phrase "safe distance" is probably a traffic lawyer's fantasy phrase.

[AndrewBurns]

When it comes down to it you could use numbers to back yourself up. The legislation requires drivers to leave enough gap such that they could stop if required without colliding with you. Simple physics dictates how rapidly you could stop in an emergency situation and how fast they could stop also taking into account reaction times, so clearly there is a numerical minimum distance at which they can drive behind you. All the legislation does is state that this minimum distance isn't a fixed number but changes based on the conditions (rain, speed etc). Clearly if you brake heavily and somebody runs up the back of you they weren't the minimum distance away by definition, it's harder to proove that somebody was too close if they don't hit you especially from video footage but I'm sure that the argument could be mounted. Clearly half a meter is inside that minimum distance unless you were both travelling at 2 kph, the real question is whether you could realistically mount this argument in court and win and I don't have enough faith in our legal system to say yes (even though logically it's airtight). I'm not a lawyer etc etc

[jules21]

He and his senior officer said the phrase "safe distance" - unsurprisingly - can be argued and subject to interpretation etc etc on what constituted safe. While they were sympathetic it was a 7 yo, there is nothing concrete in the law for now - in their view - that would provide a strong, solid action. Hence, no ticketing, no court action.

it's quite deliberate that there is nothing concrete in the law - the judgment is supposed to be made by the prosecution. or, they can refuse to prosecute and take a long lunch instead..

[rokwiz]

Yeh, You'll just have to keep the camera rolling,
The man will catch up with her oneday.

This is what happened to me 20 years ago while living in hillbilly country (the Central Coast).

Get comfy it might take a while......
Riding a long climb towards Avoca with a friend we were narrowly passed at high speed by car hoons geeze that was close, happened again further up same car, (blood starting to boil) then again just before a T section one way to Avoca the other Copa. Left took us down back home when this same clown passed close by forcing me off the road.
Geeze I'm gunna get this goose, so off I went (raging) caught up to him letting his friend off (one of 5 in the car) down the bottom of the hill, came round on his right side and grab the keys while leaning on the car, reached in and saw this guy was merely a kid and his mates hooning so I gestured (read yelled explitives) to him with thumb and fore finger in front of his chin, that you missed me by this much and you could have killed me doing that you little ************.
My riding friend arrived and she wanted to beat the little SOD but we both agreed ring the cops and the school was a better option (They were playing truent from school)
When home we got out the phone book, was looking up the school and police station, when a knock at the door was heard and it was a police officer const (won't say the name) from Terrigal police. He had a report from 5 frightened teens with ones jaw badly bruised that I had assaulted. (seems one of them knew us) My partner wanted to make a complaint against them so he took a statement from her. After explaining what happened he assured me that it probably wouldn't go any further and to not bother.
Boy was he wrong.

Are you still reading this.......hope your not snoozing.........
So 4 weeks pass, we rock upto court with a big smoke barrister Bicycle NSW recommends, seems the story they were putting to the court was I just jumped out of nowhere to attack this poor innocent sole, which he had 5 witnesses no mention of bicycles.
After my time in the box where I declared they could have killed me,and I was actually on a bicycle, which the prosecution found rather amuseing, Then it was the cops turn, under questioning const ***** said he didn't speak to my partner and told the court he didn't take her statement, the judge asked to see his notebook which showed her name and statement. (my barrister didn't)
I remember very clearly looking at my slick barrister and he just shugged his shoulders at me.
Fortunately the judge was starting to believe me after the cop had lied in court under oath, the 5 guys story wasn't quite matching either especially after bicycles were mentioned.
The judge remarked that being a Stonemason I showed great restraint in not touching this guy and it was quite clear to him I couldn't have in the position I was in leaning on the car, he also stated it was a clear case of provocation.

No conviction was recorded but I was told to be good boy in future.
The moral of the story is get plenty of evidence to support your case and make sure cops take written statements off you and your witnesses I take action imediately after the event (NOT LIKE ME) like Oxford and others have said.

Hope I haven't sent you lot of to sleep...hello....hello...

Geoff

[rokwiz]

Forgot to mention,
Always some good come of these things....This event inspired us to form the original Central Coast Bicycle Group, no social rides just council bagering.
Geoff

[CommuRider]

Nah Geoff, enjoyed your story. Lessons like these create a heightened sense of awwareness re:evidence. Hope others learn from our experiences!