Truth on diet and weight control

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby iMad » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:21 am

PawPaw wrote:I'd be interested in the dietitian's recommended protein intake in grams/kg of bodyweight. I'd be flabbergasted if it is over 1.8g/kg.
Also of interest are her views on whole fruit intake (I guess >=3 a day), and rabbit food - salad, vege (guess >= 4 cups a day).

Ride safe Comedian. One nasty stack and extended time off the bike will see you on your work mate's lite n easy portions, not to mention taking the bus.

In his excellent book Cycling Past 50, author Joe Friel speaks about the importance of Protein in one's diet. Everything below is based on an over 50's rider that is 'training hard' and he suggests .1 to .2 gm less for younger riders.

Joe says that an over 50's rider should be consuming .7 to .9 gm of protein per lb of bodyweight. Now at (say) 100kg = 220lb that would be about 175gm I would need to consume daily.
Then he illustrates the amount of protein in certain foods in a table on page 190 and said that half a chicken breast yielded 30gm of protein. Now, for me to consume 175gm protein daily, assuming my daily intake from other sources was as much as 75gm, I would need to be consuming one and a half chicken breasts each day.

Does that sound right?
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by BNA » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:51 pm

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:51 pm

iMad wrote:Joe says that an over 50's rider should be consuming .7 to .9 gm of protein per lb of bodyweight. Now at (say) 100kg = 220lb that would be about 175gm I would need to consume daily.
Then he illustrates the amount of protein in certain foods in a table on page 190 and said that half a chicken breast yielded 30gm of protein. Now, for me to consume 175gm protein daily, assuming my daily intake from other sources was as much as 75gm, I would need to be consuming one and a half chicken breasts each day.

Does that sound right?


NH&MRC science based guidelines for protein for adults doing intense exercise is 1.2-1.8g/kg body weight. Joe's recommendation is at the upper limit.
As a practical ready reckoner, below are % protein by weight for each food group, and $/100g protein:

- raw lean skinless animal flesh ~20%, $15 (for $30/kg cuts)
- mixture of nuts 15%, $13
- dry pasta 12%, $5
- bread products ~10%, $4
- whey protein isolate powder. >90%, $3
- raw rice ~7%, $2.86
- raw legumes like lentils and navy beands 20-25%, $2.50

Keep in mind excessive protein intake increases dramatically the risk of kidney stones, and calcium resorption from bones.
Excess meat consumption is converted to fat, a very expensive form of fat.
The non animal flesh foods above have ingredients apart from protein, which improves their cost benefit.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby iMad » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:09 pm

PawPaw wrote:NH&MRC science based guidelines for protein for adults doing intense exercise is 1.2-1.8g/kg body weight. Joe's recommendation is at the upper limit.
As a practical ready reckoner, below are % protein by weight for each food group, and $/100g protein:

- raw lean skinless animal flesh ~20%, $15 (for $30/kg cuts)
- mixture of nuts 15%, $13
- dry pasta 12%, $5
- bread products ~10%, $4
- whey protein isolate powder. >90%, $3
- raw rice ~7%, $2.86
- raw legumes like lentils and navy beands 20-25%, $2.50

Keep in mind excessive protein intake increases dramatically the risk of kidney stones, and calcium resorption from bones.
Excess meat consumption is converted to fat, a very expensive form of fat.
The non animal flesh foods above have ingredients apart from protein, which improves their cost benefit.

Thanks Pawpaw, what does "- raw lean skinless animal flesh ~20%, $15 (for $30/kg cuts)" mean?
12% protein in DRY PASTA?
Holy cow, how does one eat dry pasta?
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:21 pm

Dion wrote:Avoid to eat those food which contain rich quantity of carbohydrates and fats. You should drink fresh juices in your daily routine and as well as eat some type of cereals.


Hi Dion and welcome

Sorry disagree on the fruit juice as it concentrates fructose. Suggest fruit instead.

What kind of cereals are you suggesting?
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:50 pm

iMad wrote:Thanks Pawpaw, what does "- raw lean skinless animal flesh ~20%, $15 (for $30/kg cuts)" mean?
12% protein in DRY PASTA?
Holy cow, how does one eat dry pasta?


raw = not cooked or dehydrated or otherwise changed from its original state.
lean = minimal fat
skinless = skin removed, mainly applies to chicken
animal = things that move with the help of muscles which humans eat
flesh = mainly muscles
~20% = the percentage of total weight that is protein = 20grams protein / 100 grams wet weight.
$15 = cost /100grams of protein, based on $30/kg cuts of meat


- the water you add to pasta to cook it doesn't have any macronutrients in it, and is essentially free so doesn't effect final comparative cost.
I used dry weight because these products are generally sold dry to reduce transport and storage costs and improve shelf life; and different people will add different amounts of water to eat them.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby ft_critical » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:12 pm

PawPaw wrote:- raw lean skinless animal flesh ~20%, $15 (for $30/kg cuts)

raw = not cooked or dehydrated or otherwise changed from its original state.
lean = minimal fat
skinless = skin removed, mainly applies to chicken
animal = things that move with the help of muscles which humans eat
flesh = mainly muscles



Mmm raw flesh. Do we get extra points for tearing it off the bones of an ainimal we have recently chased down and bitten to death. Which is a bit un-neighbourly, there being mostly pet dogs around here.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:30 pm

ft_critical wrote:Mmm raw flesh. Do we get extra points for tearing it off the bones of an ainimal we have recently chased down and bitten to death. Which is a bit un-neighbourly, there being mostly pet dogs around here.


The Paleo Diet crowd would give you 100 points.
Though paleolithic people never lived in cities of 1,000,000+ so wouldn't have had as much competition for neighbor's pets.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby Abby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:08 am

$30/kg for meat?!?! You must be rich... ;)

Bit unrealistic... I buy very good quality, grassfed beef (whole rumps) for less than $10/kg. Skinless chicken fillets (breast or thigh) is usually less than $8/kg. Lamb is more expensive - but if you only buy it on sale, you'll get it at less than $15/kg.

That all changes the cost/benefit pretty dramatically.....

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby iMad » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:29 am

PawPaw wrote:
ft_critical wrote:Mmm raw flesh. Do we get extra points for tearing it off the bones of an ainimal we have recently chased down and bitten to death. Which is a bit un-neighbourly, there being mostly pet dogs around here.


The Paleo Diet crowd would give you 100 points.
Though paleolithic people never lived in cities of 1,000,000+ so wouldn't have had as much competition for neighbor's pets.

I had my neighbors Cocker Spaniel for dinner last night.
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Truth on diet and weight control

Postby Comedian » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:57 am

iMad wrote:
PawPaw wrote:
ft_critical wrote:Mmm raw flesh. Do we get extra points for tearing it off the bones of an ainimal we have recently chased down and bitten to death. Which is a bit un-neighbourly, there being mostly pet dogs around here.


The Paleo Diet crowd would give you 100 points.
Though paleolithic people never lived in cities of 1,000,000+ so wouldn't have had as much competition for neighbor's pets.

I had my neighbors Cocker Spaniel for dinner last night.

Needed Ruff-age? :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby sogood » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:27 am

mikesbytes wrote:Sorry disagree on the fruit juice as it concentrates fructose. Suggest fruit instead.

Just heard on a radio program where they talked about the fruits of today has been largely modified through selective breeding, typically resulting in significant increases in fructose content. As a result, one needs to watch out one's fruit intake and not consider them as zero or low calorie.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:57 pm

Abby wrote:$30/kg for meat?!?! You must be rich... ;)

Bit unrealistic... I buy very good quality, grassfed beef (whole rumps) for less than $10/kg. Skinless chicken fillets (breast or thigh) is usually less than $8/kg. Lamb is more expensive - but if you only buy it on sale, you'll get it at less than $15/kg.


On my dietitian's advice, I average eating around 300 grams of animal flesh a week (any of beef, salmon, chicken, pork, lamb), so don't mind paying for premium free range product bought from a butcher. yes, chicken is cheaper but salmon is more expensive.

I understand Coles and Woolies price war includes meat.

Do you have to trim any fat off your cuts? We tried buying in bulk a few years ago, but found the quality wasn't all it was made out to be, and total cost (including deep freeze operation) did not warrant the exercise.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby Abby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:03 pm

We get most of our red meat from one of the Superbutcher warehouses (Yatala or Eagle Farm). Its good stuff, and they have staff butchers that cut up the whole rumps, etc, for you on the spot. I usually get them to trim the fat off pretty hard. They get a bit surprised and say I'm losing some flavour - but the meat is actually very good (they are very clear about the provenance of their different cuts), so it always is delicious... The box freezer is working out pretty well for us (except for that one time I accidently turned it off - we won't go there...... :oops: )

Chicken is always from Coles/Woolies...

I hear you with salmon. Unfortunately, my two kids absolutely love it and would eat it 7 days/week if they could!! I haven't seen any 'decent' fresh salmon for less than $27/kg (even on special!). But I don't mind paying that for a once/week meal...

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:15 pm

sogood wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Sorry disagree on the fruit juice as it concentrates fructose. Suggest fruit instead.

Just heard on a radio program where they talked about the fruits of today has been largely modified through selective breeding, typically resulting in significant increases in fructose content. As a result, one needs to watch out one's fruit intake and not consider them as zero or low calorie.

Not surprised at that either.

I've heard of people who exclude fruit from their diet because of the fructose. Probably a case of moderation.

I probably don't eat enough fruit as it is
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:44 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
sogood wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Sorry disagree on the fruit juice as it concentrates fructose. Suggest fruit instead.

Just heard on a radio program where they talked about the fruits of today has been largely modified through selective breeding, typically resulting in significant increases in fructose content. As a result, one needs to watch out one's fruit intake and not consider them as zero or low calorie.

Not surprised at that either.

I've heard of people who exclude fruit from their diet because of the fructose. Probably a case of moderation.

I probably don't eat enough fruit as it is


And standard cuts of meat have more fat than 50 years ago, so probably a case of eating less.
And veges have less vitamins and minerals, so probably a case of eating more.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby ft_critical » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:33 pm

SMH Article wrote:Researchers found that the levels of many of the hormones that regulate appetite changed markedly, leaving the dieters feeling more hungry than ever.


The BBC programme I linked earlier suggested that the body fights back, against dieting. It goes into pre-programmed starvation fighting mode. This programme also suggested that the body has an internal body image that it is fine with. Hence, people reach and remain at or very close to a weight over decades (this is what the TV told me...) I was thinking about anorexia, and how anorexics can possibly think themselves to be fat when they are skin and bone. And I guess this is the reverse malfunction of the internal body image (unsupported FT theory.)

I am at 77.5 and targetting 75kg for this year (180cm with what my physio called a high muscle bulk build. Chunky) I certainly find I am fighting myself all the time. I am constantly obsessed with food. Thinking about it all the time. The day before a race is a free day, I can eat, drink etc what I like. I love that day. I dream of that day.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby Addictr3 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:16 pm

ft_critical wrote:
SMH Article wrote:Researchers found that the levels of many of the hormones that regulate appetite changed markedly, leaving the dieters feeling more hungry than ever.


The BBC programme I linked earlier suggested that the body fights back, against dieting. It goes into pre-programmed starvation fighting mode. This programme also suggested that the body has an internal body image that it is fine with. Hence, people reach and remain at or very close to a weight over decades (this is what the TV told me...) I was thinking about anorexia, and how anorexics can possibly think themselves to be fat when they are skin and bone. And I guess this is the reverse malfunction of the internal body image (unsupported FT theory.)

I am at 77.5 and targetting 75kg for this year (180cm with what my physio called a high muscle bulk build. Chunky) I certainly find I am fighting myself all the time. I am constantly obsessed with food. Thinking about it all the time. The day before a race is a free day, I can eat, drink etc what I like. I love that day. I dream of that day.


This is a good read if you have time;

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-lo ... -loss.html
If you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it well enough.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby ft_critical » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:39 pm

It was interesting. It is amazing what you don't know most of the time.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby Comedian » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:10 am

Addictr3 wrote:
ft_critical wrote:
SMH Article wrote:Researchers found that the levels of many of the hormones that regulate appetite changed markedly, leaving the dieters feeling more hungry than ever.


The BBC programme I linked earlier suggested that the body fights back, against dieting. It goes into pre-programmed starvation fighting mode. This programme also suggested that the body has an internal body image that it is fine with. Hence, people reach and remain at or very close to a weight over decades (this is what the TV told me...) I was thinking about anorexia, and how anorexics can possibly think themselves to be fat when they are skin and bone. And I guess this is the reverse malfunction of the internal body image (unsupported FT theory.)

I am at 77.5 and targetting 75kg for this year (180cm with what my physio called a high muscle bulk build. Chunky) I certainly find I am fighting myself all the time. I am constantly obsessed with food. Thinking about it all the time. The day before a race is a free day, I can eat, drink etc what I like. I love that day. I dream of that day.


This is a good read if you have time;

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-lo ... -loss.html


I wonder if that is the cause of weight loss stopping which has affected a number of people on here despite calorie deficits and lots of activity?
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:47 am

Comedian wrote:I wonder if that is the cause of weight loss stopping which has affected a number of people on here despite calorie deficits and lots of activity?


I'd apply Occam's Razor first, by checking data reliability.
Self monitoring of energy intake is notoriously unreliable, as are many bicycle computers that spit out Calories burned.
The temptation to eat more when exercising more, is overbearing for most, whether they accept it or not.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby iMad » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:48 pm

Comedian wrote:I wonder if that is the cause of weight loss stopping which has affected a number of people on here despite calorie deficits and lots of activity?

Here's the rub. It's been shown that (example statistics follow)

If a 30 y.o. male at 75kg can maintain their weight by consuming 8000kj per day, a 30 y.o. male that weighs 100kg that sheds 25kg by dieting may only be able to consume (say) 6500kj per day to maintain that weight.
Something has definitely changed. The body is trying to fight back to regain the fat deposit.
Now... could this be an evolutionary throwback where thousands of years ago human beings couldn't rely on regular meals.
Could it be that the the body desperately tries to regain fat deposits to ensure the body has stores of energy to see it through lean times?
Probably gobbledygook but an interesting thought.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby sogood » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:03 pm

There are always new research papers being published on the matter of calorie/weight control. Here's a good one and one that makes good sense.

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/diet-an ... 1tjef.html

The associated new calculator is at,
http://bwsimulator.niddk.nih.gov/
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:24 pm

The truth is I am not losing weight ( or gaining it ) ...so as the club has a dietician as a sponsor I am going next week.
Nothing to lose except kilos...and a few euros I suppose :roll: .
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby Comedian » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:56 pm

toolonglegs wrote:The truth is I am not losing weight ( or gaining it ) ...so as the club has a dietician as a sponsor I am going next week.
Nothing to lose except kilos...and a few euros I suppose :roll: .


Euronating will only lower your weight for a very short while ;)
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:05 pm

Comedian wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:The truth is I am not losing weight ( or gaining it ) ...so as the club has a dietician as a sponsor I am going next week.
Nothing to lose except kilos...and a few euros I suppose :roll: .


Euronating will only lower your weight for a very short while ;)


Nah, I will pay with my Carte-bleu.
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