Do Bike Paths Promote Bike Riding?

[filthpig]

I think too many academics try and look at cause and effect in isolation, however they do not undertake a holistic analysis such as a systems thinking approach which would enable them to gain a much more comprehensive and informed perspective. Especially when looking at an issue such as cycling, when there are so many factors at play including the demographics and socio-economics of an area, the geographical context (landscape, climate etc), the politics etc. Simply looking at the extent of bike paths and number of cyclists doesn't cut it.

Planners are the better academics to look at this type of thing, especially the European ones. Jan Gehl did an excellent presentation in Melbourne on how to create 'sustainable' cities, with bicycles as one of the primary means of transport. His ideas were great, and make me long for a better bike path system in Brisbane. Unfortunately we don't have a well planned city, with roads are choked and too narrow.

That said some bike paths are better than none, but yes, it's a hodge-podge of bike paths at best, and there needs to be a significant move away from the worshipping the car as THE form of transport for progess to be made. Melbourne is a step in the right direction - roads are much wider and better planned, and the drivers seem to take greater care creating a safer environment for on-road cycling.

[waramatt]

Ah, a question from my special interest area, of the bleeding obvious.
Yes.

+1

[jamesn184]

I prefer riding on the road as you don't have to slow down when passing/crossing side streets... Some of the bike paths around my area are designed so poorly.
Then again I'm used to riding on roads so riding in traffic etc don't faze me

[Xplora]

Yes. Where do you start riding before you're confident to mix it with traffic? Lack of bike paths means she's not confident to start.

Did she need a paddock or a huge car park to learn to drive?

I'll freely admit that I was 2-3m from killing a whole family of people within 30 seconds of driving out of my driveway for the first time. Made a bad job of turning the steering wheel back after leaving the driveway. But it went OK, and I drove on quiet roads until I could handle peak hour traffic.

We aren't commending children to the main road commutes, but once you can ride a bike in a straight line and stop safely, you need to get onto the roads to develop the confidence and road sense to handle those roads. You CANNOT develop that on a bike path, unless you share that bike path with P platers and trucks doing 60kph.

If you can't ride a bike yet, go into a big car park or a field. Somewhere soft to fall. But really... Oz, you're approaching this the wrong way. You can't aggressively take on the road until you can ride WAY too fast for many paths on the weekend.

[high_tea]

We aren't commending children to the main road commutes, but once you can ride a bike in a straight line and stop safely, you need to get onto the roads to develop the confidence and road sense to handle those roads. You CANNOT develop that on a bike path, unless you share that bike path with P platers and trucks doing 60kph.

I dunno, muppets that think a shared path is a race track seem like good training to me There are plenty of random pedestrians doing all wierd stuff to keep you on your toes too, round where I ride anyway. Sure, roads are a different deal (no doorzones on a path for one thing), but skilling up in a relatively non-threatening environment makes all sorts of sense to me.

My 5-year old rides in a straight line just fine. She can stop too. I won't be taking her on the road just yet. There's a bit more to it than that.

If you can't ride a bike yet, go into a big car park or a field. Somewhere soft to fall. But really... Oz, you're approaching this the wrong way. You can't aggressively take on the road until you can ride WAY too fast for many paths on the weekend.

Assuming that you want to "aggressively take on the road". Speaking for myself, I don't. Been there, done that, grew out of it. Which is why my daily commute is arranged to use as many paths as possible. It's more pleasant. I'm not contending that the roads are inherently more dangerous than off-road paths, only that they are inherently less pleasant.

Could it be, speaking of the bleeding obvious, that people prefer to do things that are more pleasant?. I doubt I'm alone in preferring the sound of birds and random passersby bidding me a cheery good morning to a heap of road noise.

Look, I understand this whole "bike paths are superfluous" argument. The roads should be a fit place to cycle, absolutely. Apparently they are, if and only if you have the mad sk1llz to "aggressively take on the road" . Fact is, cars are inherently dangerous and unpleasant to be around. People not wanting to be around them is perfectly reasonable. Want to prove how hard you are? By all means, ride on the road. Just don't go claiming that people not wanting to is somehow misguided.

[il padrone]

My kids were riding with us on roads from about 6-7 years old... riding solo to school along residential streets and secondary roads from about 9 yo. They have quickly developed very fine road skills.

I find my roads are entirely pleasant enough to ride along, but more to the point, they are more direct and actually take me where I want to go. I have abike path nearby. It only takes me directly to a few places (mostly parks) and it's the long way to go to most destinations.

[Ross A]

When I rode the 8 or 9km to school back in 1960s the road surfaces were much worse than today and I don't remember the road shoulder being marked, but I still felt reasonably safe.

And that was before wearing helmets were compulsory. I think drivers were more respectful of cyclists back then too.

[high_tea]

I find my roads are entirely pleasant enough to ride along, but more to the point, they are more direct and actually take me where I want to go. I have abike path nearby. It only takes me directly to a few places (mostly parks) and it's the long way to go to most destinations.

Fair enough. It depends on the individual and the particular road, I'm sure. I'm just saying, plenty of people don't find roads pleasant, and prefer bike paths - nothing surprising or unreasonable there.

Agree 100% about the indirectness of bike paths; the fact that they very seldom go anywhere irritates me no end. I don't ride a bike path to road, I ride several, linked up in ways that are not at all obvious to me. I don't have a any problem believing that the apparent lack of decent off-road routes plus the small, but thoroughly nasty, minority of drivers that insist on making life unpleasant for cyclists here in Brisbane combine to put quite a few people off cycling

[DavidS]

When I got back into cycling roads were a non issue. I was riding on highways as a kid so I just never saw a problem.

That said, a lot of people comment about how dangerous the roads are, especially when you are exposed as you are on a bike. I think there is a fair bit of truth in what these people say. Roads can be dangerous on a bike. Those who are not confident are more likely to ride if there are paths available and this is a good thing.

DS

[CatCanRide]

I think that a lot of the people who say that riding cycle paths isn't necessary to build confidence and that you should be able to just get on your bike and ride on the road are probably people who were blessed with learning to ride a bike when they were young with that in built sense of indestructability that children have.

Learning to ride as an adult with a fully developed awareness that I'm not invulnerable to harm - building confidence on cycle paths is an easier rite of passage in learning to ride a bike.

Mostly I ride for fun and fitness and the cycle paths are fantastic for me to be able to do that without the stress of dealing with car drivers. I do ride to and from the bike paths, and for short local destination chores - getting into the car to drive a couple of kilometers is such an annoying nuisence, much better to ride the bike.

It would be nicer if the local bike paths actually did run to places of "interest" so that they were a more logical choice for commuting, hopefully that will happen in newer suburbs as they are developed, and retro fitted into more established suburbs - that however is probably something that is going to take a long time to happen.

[iMad]

Well I'm in Noosa and we're lucky enough to have hundreds of km's of dedicated bike paths (shared) on the Sunshine Coast generally.
When I got back into cycling some months ago after 20+ years away from the sport I swore that I'd never ride on roads again and would make exclusive use of the fabulous bike paths.

Well I suppose the fact they were there did motivate me to get back to cycling in the beginning, but the fact remains I was on the roads within 3 weeks of starting again.
Bike paths are great for families and the casual recreational rider but I don't believe they provide an answer to the serious cyclist often crowded with people strolling slowly along, dog walkers, skateboarders and families with very young children on bikes. They just slow you down and as someone said earlier, don't necessarily go where you want them to.

I honestly believe what we need is better defined and better regulated bike lanes at the side of roads.
Noosa is blessed in that area with some dedicated bike lanes that are wider than the traffic lanes.
Ian Humphrey, the cyclist killed by Adelaide lawyer Eugene McGee some years ago in a hit run, was riding on a highway with absolutely no tolerance for error on the part of a driver.
If there had been a designated and marked bike lane to the left of the traffic lane, albeit a reasonably narrow one, he might still be alive today.
I'm not lessening the deeds of Eugene McGee that afternoon because his actions were reprehensible in my opinion.
When road infrastructure is put down these days, legislation should demand councils and governments provide even a narrow area to the side to remove the cyclist from the traffic.

[Xplora]

iMad, if the cyclist wasn't allowed on the road at all, he would definitely not have been killed. More infrastructure is NEVER an acceptable answer in hindsight - it's blaming the victim in a different way. McGee was in control of the vehicle, and every other situation for drivers implies that it is their sole responsibility to drive to the conditions ie every failure rests on them. So get that out of your bag of tricks asap. Another lane wouldn't have helped the head on from the truck that killed 3 people (Lennons?) - a better driver would have.

Anyways, back on topic. high_tea, I agree that the bike path is more pleasant. I'm much more likely to commute because my ride takes me along a lot of good bike paths, and the roads are manageable. My point is that you need a pair of brass monkey balls to cope with the traffic when they are doing 60 and you are doing 45-50 as well. You can't be timid, because the margin for error can be paper thin. I imagine a lot of people commuting have to deal with that kind of situation a couple times at least each month. The only reason people have the confidence to drive so fast in cars is because they expect to be protected in the event of a crash. (Ironically, these people don't understand that the airbag and seatbelt preventing your certain death can still put you in hospital for a week from the whiplash and other impact injuries. Denial is the key to being able to travel somewhere fast).
If you lack confidence to deal with ANY traffic on a bike, then a bike path isn't going to build that confidence. Ozkaban wanted his lady to go riding on the roads (I'm guessing to do a few centuries around the semirural areas?) and she's not going to progress from bike path to centuries on the road without being on the road. I agree the bike path is more pleasant *under 30kph*. But I felt the implication was that his lady was going to get confident because she had a path. My wife was the commuter in our family until our first child. We've got HUGE amounts of bike path around us now. Her willingness to ride has nothing to do with the road now. It's just an excuse to avoid riding at all.

I guarantee you that if the path was busy or poorly lit or bumpy or too short or easily flooded then they would complain about that instead. Still no riding, but lots of excuses.

Bike paths for kids to enjoy, great idea. Bike paths for adults to learn to cycle, and cruise around on, great idea. Bike paths to assist commuters, great idea. Just don't expect cyclists to magically grow on trees because they exist until peds are either banned from them or share responsibility in the event of an accident. Ped behaviour is DEEPLY scary for me since I ride around 35-40kph next to Parramatta River. It's perfectly safe with huge visibility for much of the path, but peds don't understand that I'm not doing anything wrong by riding fast, while they ARE doing something wrong by randomly walking over the whole path, walking 3 abreast, etc. Not even the AZ is enough to wake these people up. Bike paths definitely aren't the answer for cyclists who need to go faster than a runner, but can't keep up with traffic.

[iMad]

iMad, if the cyclist wasn't allowed on the road at all, he would definitely not have been killed. More infrastructure is NEVER an acceptable answer in hindsight - it's blaming the victim in a different way. McGee was in control of the vehicle, and every other situation for drivers implies that it is their sole responsibility to drive to the conditions ie every failure rests on them. So get that out of your bag of tricks asap. Another lane wouldn't have helped the head on from the truck that killed 3 people (Lennons?) - a better driver would have.

XPLORA, with respect to McGee, I wasn't excusing McGee in the incident, his actions assuming that as claimed that he was DUI, were appalling. What I'm saying is that if almost all cyclists use the road, and if there are no allowances for cyclists in terms of bike lanes, many more cyclists would be injured or killed by negligent drivers. The margin for error is nil, and a decent bike lane provides just that... a small margin for error.
For you to say infrastructure doesn't help is rubbish. Come to Noosa one day and have a look at our bike lanes and then you might understand.

[CatCanRide]

Bike paths for kids to enjoy, great idea. Bike paths for adults to learn to cycle, and cruise around on, great idea. Bike paths to assist commuters, great idea. Just don't expect cyclists to magically grow on trees because they exist until peds are either banned from them or share responsibility in the event of an accident. Ped behaviour is DEEPLY scary for me since I ride around 35-40kph next to Parramatta River. It's perfectly safe with huge visibility for much of the path, but peds don't understand that I'm not doing anything wrong by riding fast, while they ARE doing something wrong by randomly walking over the whole path, walking 3 abreast, etc. Not even the AZ is enough to wake these people up. Bike paths definitely aren't the answer for cyclists who need to go faster than a runner, but can't keep up with traffic.

I almost feel like this is saying that I don't rate as a cyclist as I am mainly an cycle path rider. Parts of my local path network are poorly lit, rough, flood regularly and are often covered with leaf litter and bits of tree and gravel run off - yet still I ride them. Often I can get quite a good turn of speed along these cycle paths - but as soon as I catch up with pedestrians I slow right down, give a nice ding of the bell, call out good morning and cruise past them. Pedestrians are unpredictable you can't ride past them at speed and surprisingly enough - they have a right to be on the path as well. I don't consider using a AZ to be appropriate on a shared pathway. If you are wanting to ride at 35k+ without having to slow down for pedestrians then it is time to not use the shared cycle paths and stick to the roads.

[CommuRider]

How did Nossa become a cycling-friendly mecca? Not to do with Oppy?

[Xplora]

I almost feel like this is saying that I don't rate as a cyclist as I am mainly an cycle path rider.

This isn't saying you don't rate. You are the "normal" cyclist. The commuter or weekend warrior is not. The original thread title was asking does this bike path help promote anything more than peddle and giggle - do people make the change to more intense riding?

I think its easy enough to have people SCREAMMING along some of the better PSPs, peds just have to treat them like roads. Stick to your side of the line, and we'll all be fine. I will gladly slow down behind people if there is oncoming traffic. I will slow down for kids in the middle of the path... but parents should take the opportunity to use the larger PSPs as a chance to understand the road rules. Keep left, watch around you, signal your intentions. If you want to walk across the PSP, you should treat it like an intersection on the road. It's not a footpath. You've got footpaths, and PSPs. They aren't the same for a reason

iMad, you should come to Sydney and find out why the kind of bike infrastructure will NEVER happen on the scale necessary to fit your expectations.Over half of the population live in 3 capital cities. 10 million people, on roads designed in the 1800s. We don't need bike specific, we need abandonment of car-centric attitudes and respect for the vehicle. I think of boy racers in Skylines and I think "wow, why are they even allowed to drive". Bike lanes aren't possible, just not enough space for them. I don't need a bike lane on my commute through the Parramatta rat runs. I need respectful drivers. Most of the country isn't driving on main arterial roads, and we shouldn't pretend like a bike lane on a main arterial road would fix something.

[iMad]

How did Nossa become a cycling-friendly mecca? Not to do with Oppy?

Excuse my ignorance but what did you mean by "Not to do with Oppy?"

[iMad]

iMad, you should come to Sydney and find out why the kind of bike infrastructure will NEVER happen on the scale necessary to fit your expectations.Over half of the population live in 3 capital cities. 10 million people, on roads designed in the 1800s. We don't need bike specific, we need abandonment of car-centric attitudes and respect for the vehicle. I think of boy racers in Skylines and I think "wow, why are they even allowed to drive". Bike lanes aren't possible, just not enough space for them. I don't need a bike lane on my commute through the Parramatta rat runs. I need respectful drivers. Most of the country isn't driving on main arterial roads, and we shouldn't pretend like a bike lane on a main arterial road would fix something.

I'm originally a Sydney lad so I understand about infrastructure in Sydney as with many main arteries in large cities. The catch 22 in all this is that it's the bike lane that creates respectful drivers in the first place. In the rush of today's world, striking a cyclist using one third of a traffic lane on a busy single lane Hwy during peak hour is enough to unsettle anyone. Up here, due specifically to the terrific infrastructure, cyclists rarely if ever intrude into traffic lanes so tempers rarely boil over. I have no idea what can be done to improve ancient road systems in large cities. If it was me, I wouldn't ride on them. I know it's a cop out but you will never change the attitude of drivers towards cyclists while ever they share the same traffic lanes on extremely busy roads. The only way to overcome that would be to include a mandatory period of cycle commuting as part of the license test.

I almost lost a friend that was cleaned up by a woman driving a large 4WD some years ago as she reached around to do something with her baby. It was a busy single lane road and the traffic stopped. She swerved to the left and took my mate out. He was almost killed and spent a long time in intensive care; he was still doing regular physiotherapy for his injuries two years later. A cycle lane would almost certainly have avoided this.

[ColinOldnCranky]

Because have served over a number of years on our work Travelsmart committee, because I am seen more than anyone else at work arriving and departing (I ride every working day of the year, no exceptions, back to 2008), because I managed the lockers for several years, because people tend not to forget a guy on a unicycle a great many at work people know me as a commuter. So I get a lot of questions and comments from those wanting to ride to work.

The number one concern by a big margin is whether or not they can avoid riding on roads. (btw the requirement to wear a helmet is NEVER raised as an impediment.) And consequently many genuine prospects simply do not go through with it.

So, on my own purely anecdotal evidence the absence of separate paths is a big issue indeed.

[waramatt]

Because have served over a number of years on our work Travelsmart committee, because I am seen more than anyone else at work arriving and departing (I ride every working day of the year, no exceptions, back to 2008), because I managed the lockers for several years, because people tend not to forget a guy on a unicycle a great many at work people know me as a commuter. So I get a lot of questions and comments from those wanting to ride to work.

The number one concern by a big margin is whether or not they can avoid riding on roads. (btw the requirement to wear a helmet is NEVER raised as an impediment.) And consequently many genuine prospects simply do not go through with it.

So, on my own purely anecdotal evidence the absence of separate paths is a big issue indeed.

+1

I took my mother-in-law into Newcastle this afternoon to see a cruise ship that was berthed today. As we sat at the Foreshore, I watched hundreds of cycling enthusiasts riding along the shared path that runs along the harbour shore. Mums, Dads, kids, young couples, old couples, you name it. I also saw a few roadies about but they were on the road.

I grew up here and remember this same area in the 70s when we were kids. It was an industrial wasteland of rail yards and ice works. NOBODY other than die hard competitive cyclists or dockyard shiftworkers were on bikes then. This scene is repeated anywhere there is a shared or cycle path, especially in scenic areas. I'm convinced that "if you build it (away from cars) they will come".

[CommuRider]

How did Nossa become a cycling-friendly mecca? Not to do with Oppy?

Excuse my ignorance but what did you mean by "Not to do with Oppy?"

I thought I read somewhere Hubert Opperman was a property developer in QLD at one stage? A mayor or do I totally have a wrong person in mind?

[il padrone]

It seems that you are mixing Oppy up with his manager/coach Bruce Small, and Noosa with the Gold Coast

In the 1960s, the Gold Coast was a place of scattered fibro shacks and genteel weatherboard Queenslander boarding houses. A foreign face was as rare as an exposed female breast and crime was a suburb in a Hollywood gangster picture. It was Melburnian Bruce Small who built the destination and destroyed the idyll.

He manufactured Malvern Star bicycles and, courtesy of publicity from his champion Hubert Opperman's long-distance rides and petrol rationing during the war, made a two-wheel fortune. Small turned mangrove swamps into canal estates, handily combined the role of developer and politician and, as mayor, introduced meter maids and promoted the Gold Coast throughout Australia and New Zealand, the Philippines, Hong Kong, Japan and Singapore. Nearing death in 1980, he recalled those early years as ''a wonderful, friendly, family paradise''.

[CommuRider]

thanks IP

Well Oppy IS a Malvern Star

[Ozkaban]

Yes. Where do you start riding before you're confident to mix it with traffic? Lack of bike paths means she's not confident to start.

Did she need a paddock or a huge car park to learn to drive?

I'll freely admit that I was 2-3m from killing a whole family of people within 30 seconds of driving out of my driveway for the first time. Made a bad job of turning the steering wheel back after leaving the driveway. But it went OK, and I drove on quiet roads until I could handle peak hour traffic.

We aren't commending children to the main road commutes, but once you can ride a bike in a straight line and stop safely, you need to get onto the roads to develop the confidence and road sense to handle those roads. You CANNOT develop that on a bike path, unless you share that bike path with P platers and trucks doing 60kph.

If you can't ride a bike yet, go into a big car park or a field. Somewhere soft to fall. But really... Oz, you're approaching this the wrong way. You can't aggressively take on the road until you can ride WAY too fast for many paths on the weekend.

Interesting response. Forgive me when I repeat that my wife doesn't feel confident to ride on the road. Very quiet back streets maybe, but no road that is remotely busy. My suburb us somewhat isolated meaning riding on the Pacific hwy to go anywhere of any reasonable distance.

I guess you would be happy to rant about how drivers need to be locked up for hitting an inexperienced cyclist who was just on the road trying to learn how to handle her bike and just make a mistake. No skin off your nose....

Sure, there is a progression from paths to quieter streets to busier ones and main roads. We all start somewhere and to suggest mixing it with traffic at the start is reckless.

[ColinOldnCranky]

Ped behaviour is DEEPLY scary for me since I ride around 35-40kph next to Parramatta River. It's perfectly safe with huge visibility for much of the path, but peds don't understand that I'm not doing anything wrong by riding fast, while they ARE doing something wrong by randomly walking over the whole path, walking 3 abreast, etc. Not even the AZ is enough to wake these people up. Bike paths definitely aren't the answer for cyclists who need to go faster than a runner, but can't keep up with traffic.

I can't see any moral compulsion for a ped to lose the pleasure of walking in company when cyclists themselves are unwilling to lose the opportunity to lose a bit of time and potential energy.

Peds do not understand that they are wrong and you are right because, to put it bluntly, you are NOT right. Just because it would be possible to ride at a certain speed IF a whole set of "if's" were met does not make it right to ride at that speed when those "if's" are not in evidence. I COULD drive at 100kph on the freeway IF the traffic was not too busy but it would be WRONG to drive at that speed in peak hour. If too many peds are as you describe (and in my experience they are) then a RIGHT rider will just have to ride to the conditions. A WRONG rider will just blast on thru as though it was a perfect world and absolve themselves of any further responsibility.

If I was inclined to be a social early morning walker then I would likely on some or most occasions be in the company of more than one other person. Dropping one of us behind the other two would be socially unrewarding and would be a disincentive to people doing something laudable. Especially when the cyclist only has to slow down a bit and ride to the conditions. I WOULD be wrong if I did not clear the way on request or if I was on my ipod and totally unaware of my surroundings. Admittedly a common enough occurrence.