Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MattyK » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:47 pm

Couple one of the above levers to an Alfine Di2 hub and I'd be as a happy as a pig in shite
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by BNA » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:01 pm

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:01 pm

MichaelB wrote:The big difference between the Formula and the TRP systems is how they do the shifting. The Formula appears to use individual levers (much like shimano does), wheras TRP use buttons.

So now, there are 3 known players with two full hydro shifters. TRP & Formula using Di2 and SRAm to have a Mechanical shift full hydro.
You must have Tektro on the brain tonight. :)
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:03 am

Even more disc action - hints that there is now a push to get UCI approval .....

http://www.bikebiz.com//news/read/brake-makers-want-uci-to-allow-disc-brakes-on-road-bikes


Charles Becker, category manager for road and triathlon at SRAM, said:

"We'll be supplying road discs for testing by the UCI soon. Regardless of what the UCI decide we'll be producing the kit for the market. For us it's a safety issue as well as a performance issue. Yes, there are compatibility issues for team and neutral support at pro races but that's not an insurmountable problem. I think the UCI will see sense on this one."
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby rkelsen » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:16 am

That article is good because it mentions all of the issues.

If the UCI approve discs for use in road races, it'll be interesting to see which teams (if any) are prepared to cop the necessary weight and time penalties in exchange for better braking... and how far they get.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:12 am

I find it interesting with one of the catchcries for UCI not approving it is the additional support (neutral) during the race to cope with the additional disc brake combos (yes, will be an issue, but not a insurmountable one as quoted above), but there is NO mention at all when 11sp came out for Campagnolo, and when Shimano go 11sp, there will be no issue either.

So why is the disc one such a major issue ????

It won't be simple, but one solution is to get rid of some of the press cars (and avoid potential issues like the Hoogerland one) and photo motos and replace them with additional neutral service, perhaps even partly funded by those teams that want disc brakes.

Sounds like a solution to me ..... :D

But maybe that's because I am biased towards discs :roll:
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:20 am

rkelsen wrote:That article is good because it mentions all of the issues.

If the UCI approve discs for use in road races, it'll be interesting to see which teams (if any) are prepared to cop the necessary weight and time penalties in exchange for better braking... and how far they get.
There won't be a weight penalty. They just won't have to add as much stuff to come up to 6.8Kg. The extra aero drag would be an issue. You might see them in the mountains some time in the distant future. SRAM wouldn't be applying to the UCI if they thought there was no chance of teams using them in the future.

Fortunately for me, what road racers use has little to do with what I'll be using on the road. :)
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:00 pm

A couple of more TRP Hywire articles

Hywire (AT) Bike Rumour

Hywire (AT) Road.cc

Here are some pics of the guts of the TRP shifter

Image

Image

http://road.cc/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/images/TRP%20at%20Taipei/TRP%20Taipei%2004.jpg

Interesting lever shape :D

Image
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:56 am

In my search for a better disc brake for our Tandem, I stumbled across the Bengal MB700T which I mentioned in an earlier post.

Most of the top tandem riders / suppliers seem to be offering this brake as their top model upgrade item. There is good reviews at the below blog by this guy who is a very well respected tandem rider and writer:

http://tandemgeek.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/hot-disc-brake-news-or-news-about-overheated-disc-brakes-if-you-prefer/

If you search Bengal in his blog they are mentioned in a few articles that he has written.

These were hard to find and I've had to buy 12x sets of them to meet minimum order quantities with the factory, which means I have 11 sets for sale going cheap. If they sell well, I will get more but at this point consider it a once off opportunity to secure a fairly rare set of mechanical disc brakes for a pretty low price. The tandem places are offering the Bengal MB700T as a $50 UPGRADE from the Avid BB7. If you compare the BB7 pricing then I think you'll agree that the price is good.

They are in transit to me and should be ready for shipping after Easter. I won't know whats in the box until they get here but I'm expecting 2x calipers and 2x 160mm rotors.

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Crittski » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:01 pm

are replacement pads as rare as the callipers?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:57 pm

Considering BB7s are ~$79 each at CRC, $119 a pair is a good price.

Good point by Crittski. Did your supplier give you any information on price and availability of replacement pads?

Can I assume you are going to use the 203mm disc with the Bengal caliper on your tandem? I'll be interested to see how your next big tandem ride goes. :)
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:04 pm

Crittski wrote:are replacement pads as rare as the callipers?


Not sure on repacelment pads, will cross that bridge when someone is close to needing some. I dare say once you can pop the pads out and take them to an LBS they should be able to match them up with something off the shelf, I highly doubt they would be a proprietary design.

If that isn't the case, I have a good factory connection now and I'll be able to order the standard ones in a small quantity easily enough.

Looks like they come with a good pad as standard so I won't be looking for pads for a little while :-)

To answer Nobody - yes I'm planning to run them with a 203mm front rotor. I have BB7's in the box at home unopened which I'll probably move onto someone else since the Bengal's appear to be a better thing. I'm sticking to the 160mm rotor on the rear as I don't have enough chainstay clearance to go bigger on the back without serious modifications.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby JBark » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:01 pm

Just had my first experience with disc brakes in torrential rain yesterday on my new CX commuter, bloody brilliant. I knew they would be better in the rain than the v-brakes on my old bike, but didn't realise just how much better. When people say "it's the same as in the dry", it turns out they aren't kidding. :)

Now I'm just waiting for the BB5 pads to wear down, so I have an excuse to upgrade the BB7s (or similar). Don't really care if they stop better, I just want something with a lot more pad material and the ability to adjust both inboard and outboard pads easily. Judging by how tiny the pads are on the BB5s, I doubt I'll be waiting too long.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby grantw » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:10 pm

I see (perhaps slowly) that Surly now has an LHT model with disc brakes (cable) http://surlybikes.com/bikes/disc_trucker .
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby cobba » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:07 pm

jacks1071 wrote:
Crittski wrote:are replacement pads as rare as the callipers?


Not sure on repacelment pads, will cross that bridge when someone is close to needing some. I dare say once you can pop the pads out and take them to an LBS they should be able to match them up with something off the shelf, I highly doubt they would be a proprietary design.


The Bengal MB700T uses the same pads as the Hayes MX-2, MX-3, MX-4 & Sole which can be found very easily.

Bengal part # PH02 http://www.bengalperformance.com.tw/products_c_038554.html?ino=36
Hayes part # PH02 http://www.bengalperformance.com.tw/products_c_03e394.html?ino=34
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Crittski » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:01 pm

Are the inboard and outboard pads adjustable on the Bengal? Hanging out for hydraulics to the lever, but its great to see another option in the market.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:41 am

jacks1071 wrote:In my search for a better disc brake for our Tandem, I stumbled across the Bengal MB700T which I mentioned in an earlier post.

Most of the top tandem riders / suppliers seem to be offering this brake as their top model upgrade item.

Image



Been away on holidays, but back on deck now :D

So what is it about the bengal brakes that makes them better ? Better feel, pull ratio, stiffer bodies ?

What is the size of the pads compared to the BB7 ?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby cobba » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:04 pm

Are the inboard and outboard pads adjustable on the Bengal?

Only the inboard.

What is the size of the pads compared to the BB7 ?

About the same size as BB5 pads.

The Hayes CX5 road/cx mechanical disc brake mightn't have the 'melting red plastic adjusting wheel' problem the Avids are having on tandems as the inner pad on it has to be adjusted with a 5mm allen key.

The Bengal is similar looking to the Hayes CX5

Promax also makes a road mechanical disc brake too, the DSK-720RA
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby baabaa » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:32 pm

UPGRADE
Hmmm not so sure about that. About four or five years ago these Bengal things could be found on most bike shop shelves( and sat, and sat, and...).
Not sure about the use with drop bar levers, most off the rack drop bar bikes spec bb5s and bb7s for a reason.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby eeksll » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:52 pm

I have bengal disc brakes on a second hand cheap apollo. Adjustable pads on both inboard and outboard I think. Clearly not the same model discussed here, as the bike is 400 new.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:50 pm

I had a read through the Bengal blog as linked by jack above, and note that with the issues noted with the Avid's were minor (except losing the pad, but that was the next day, not on the actual descent), and the only ones that DIDN'T have an issue were

"The only disc brakes that didn’t have any issues were the new Bengal / Santana models mated to the larger 250mm Santana disc rotors"


What size discs were the others using ? It is not mentioned anywhere.

So my original question (refined a bit), is

"What feature does the Bengal caliper have over the Avids that makes them better (when comparing like for like - i.e same disc size) ? "

It seems that the inner adjusting knob is the only thing that is an issue on a TANDEM, going down Mt Ventoux. So a single rider on a roadie with discs should not have an issue at all .... :mrgreen:
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:03 pm

MichaelB wrote:A couple of more TRP Hywire articles

Hywire (AT) Bike Rumour

Hywire (AT) Road.cc

Here are some pics of the guts of the TRP shifter

Image

Image

http://road.cc/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/images/TRP%20at%20Taipei/TRP%20Taipei%2004.jpg

Interesting lever shape :D

Image


Ande now Ribble has the Ultegra Di2 (full 13 piece set) for $1,515 :shock:

And given the lever set goes for US$480 for a pir, and just an Upgrade set (no cranks, cassette etc) is typically US$1,400 on fleabay, the Ribble price is a bargain

Time to buy a set, sell the levers & calipers and wait for a Hywire or Formula set to be released .... :twisted:
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:50 pm

MichaelB wrote:I had a read through the Bengal blog as linked by jack above, and note that with the issues noted with the Avid's were minor (except losing the pad, but that was the next day, not on the actual descent), and the only ones that DIDN'T have an issue were

"The only disc brakes that didn’t have any issues were the new Bengal / Santana models mated to the larger 250mm Santana disc rotors"


What size discs were the others using ? It is not mentioned anywhere.

So my original question (refined a bit), is

"What feature does the Bengal caliper have over the Avids that makes them better (when comparing like for like - i.e same disc size) ? "

It seems that the inner adjusting knob is the only thing that is an issue on a TANDEM, going down Mt Ventoux. So a single rider on a roadie with discs should not have an issue at all .... :mrgreen:


The major difference I see between the Bengal and the Avid is the lack of plastic. The bengals are all metal, nothing to melt and fail. The pad adjustor is an allen key. The standard pads are Non-asbestos semi metallic compound which I think will be an upgrade on what comes standard with the Avid's.

Loosing a pad is a SERIOUS problem, especially if it falls out on a decent. Some of the tandem riders using the Avid's are carrying spare adjustor knobs in their saddle bags.

My stock arrived today, they look great, well made, the included disks, adaptors and bolts all appear to be excellent quality. Here is a picture of whats in the box, I have some stock of both white and black calipers.

Image

The included Rotor's are 160mm. Nothing to stop you running a different adaptor and a bigger rotor if you have clearance for it (and require the bigger rotor), I think the 160mm should be fine for all but the most kamakazi decenders (on a single bike) - for a tandem I'm looking for a bigger rotor for the front and plan to run a 203mm as long as it fits.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:54 pm

baabaa wrote:UPGRADE
Hmmm not so sure about that. About four or five years ago these Bengal things could be found on most bike shop shelves( and sat, and sat, and...).
Not sure about the use with drop bar levers, most off the rack drop bar bikes spec bb5s and bb7s for a reason.


Avid's are pretty easy to get a hold of which could be the reason you see more of them, the high-end tandem builders offer the Bengal as an upgrade on the Avid's and no-one has been running road disc's longer than the tandem guys so they should know. Also if these will pull up a tandem then you've got pleanty of head room running them on a single.

This model is designed to use with STI levers, link to the product is here.

http://www.bengalperformance.com.tw/products3659.html?ino=7

Based on your theory that cheap bikes 5 years ago had a bengal part on them the bikes were rubbish, then shimano must be junk as well because no doubt there would have been a couple of shimano components on them??
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:25 am

jacks1071 wrote:
MichaelB wrote: ......

Loosing a pad is a SERIOUS problem, especially if it falls out on a decent. Some of the tandem riders using the Avid's are carrying spare adjustor knobs in their saddle bags.....




Too true re a serious issue, but in the blog it was reported as falling out on the next day (after the descent). Very little info on a potentially big problem. Would be interesting to know what the real cause was ?

If the Bengal pad is non-asbestos semi-metallic, what is the stock Avid one ?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby cobba » Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:11 pm

MichaelB wrote:
If the Bengal pad is non-asbestos semi-metallic, what is the stock Avid one ?


Stock Avid BB7 pads are Metal Sintered / Sintered Metallic .

Some couple of descriptions of pad types.

Organic / Resin - are made from organic resins and fibers. They are good for recreational use as its bite is not that strong and they don't like rain or mud. Generate very little heat and that makes them desirable for some systems specially closed system hydros which don't hadle well thermal expansion of the fluid. Its life is rather short.

Semi-Metallic - made from a resin material with metal (copper, brass) chips inclusions. They offer very good braking power, low squeal, medium heat generation and are medium lasting. A very good all-around pad. Some would say those are the best.

Sintered Metallic / Fully Metallic - made out from low melting point metals powder (again, copper and brass alloys) by pressing them at high temperatures. These are the longer lasting, most powerful brake pads... the tradeout is that they squeal rather easily and generate a lot of heat which can be bad for some hydro systems. They cut thru the mud too.... but also some will wear pretty soon under wet (depends on the manufacturer).

SINTERED METALLIC
Downhill high temp
• Suitable for downhill racing
• Excellent in wet & muddy conditions
• Superior performance at high temps
• Virtually unaffected by rain or snow
• Exceptional pad life


SEMI-METAL
XC & trail
• Suitable for cross-country & trail
• All-round performance
• Good performance at high or low temps
• Great pad life
• Quieter than sintered pads


ORGANIC / RESIN
Commuter & city
• Suitable for commuter & city use
• Good performance at low temps
• Good pad life
• Low rotor wear
• Extremely quiet
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