Bacchetta 700c

Recumbents and all feet forward machines

Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:05 am

First commute on the new bike this morning. This would be a good test as I know the route like the proverbial back of my hand and what my speed will be at just about every point on the way. I was a bit worried about manoeuvring it through traffic, so I left a bit earlier which may have helped, but, WOW, it is fast. I was at least 4-5kph faster everywhere. The lighter weight really does make a difference as I was able to maintain rhythm and pace with much less effort and not only keep up with, but pass other bikes going up hills. As an extra bonus, all my usual commuting gear fits in the 'brain box' bag and my shirt arrived at work reasonably uncreased. Very pleased.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Riggsbie » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:47 pm

Good work !!

You gotta love Recumbent Bikes/Trikes..... :mrgreen:
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Phil » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:30 pm

And I have just ordered a Large Frame Bacchetta dual 700cc Carbon Aero so I will see how that goes - hopefully next week.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:36 am

Nice! I suspect it will go just that little bit better than a Corsa 700c :D I'm very happy with mine - they are certainly a different animal, but very efficient and comfortable once you get to know them.

Assume you're buying it through Ian at Flying Furniture?
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Phil » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:38 pm

Yes, through Ian (AT) FFC.

After doing an Audax on the trike I figured that the CF frame was worth it just for the extra comfort. Got a couple of nice sets of wheels to go with the CA, some robust 1.6kg 38mm Niobiums with GP4000S 25mms (were my commuter tyres) and a set of Zipp 404s which I have a tubeless setup ready to go on with Hutchison Fusion 23mms - both of which I stripped off my roadbikes before they were sold.

Probably going to stay with the Double-sided SPD pedals on the Highracer - much quicker to get in and out of - well after I do the sneakers and platform pedals in the carpark first to get used to the whole 2 wheel recumbent thing.

No idea which I am going to go with for Audax rides - the trike will be a bit slower, but it does give me somewhere to lie down and recuperate, the 100kms last weekend was not particularly taxing, even though my biggest ride on the trike was only 55kms.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:45 pm

Phil wrote:Yes, through Ian (AT) FFC.

After doing an Audax on the trike I figured that the CF frame was worth it just for the extra comfort. Got a couple of nice sets of wheels to go with the CA, some robust 1.6kg 38mm Niobiums with GP4000S 25mms (were my commuter tyres) and a set of Zipp 404s which I have a tubeless setup ready to go on with Hutchison Fusion 23mms - both of which I stripped off my roadbikes before they were sold.

Probably going to stay with the Double-sided SPD pedals on the Highracer - much quicker to get in and out of - well after I do the sneakers and platform pedals in the carpark first to get used to the whole 2 wheel recumbent thing.

No idea which I am going to go with for Audax rides - the trike will be a bit slower, but it does give me somewhere to lie down and recuperate, the 100kms last weekend was not particularly taxing, even though my biggest ride on the trike was only 55kms.


Those are nice wheels, will make it a very fast bike I suspect. How have you found the tubeless setup? I use SPD pedals as well - I find they work well, and retained compatibility with my more commuting oriented recumbent while I was getting used to the Bacchetta. I appreciate the good grip the soles give when putting a foot down. On the Corsa, with my leg length the ground is a long way away, and better grip makes it feel a bit more secure. I suspect you will find starting and stopping a bit of a challenge until you get used to it. I've around 500km on the Corsa now and am only just feeling confident about starting on any sort of hill - fairly important for me as it get used to commute to work. If the truth be known, my other bike is a much better commuter with a lower seat height and bottom bracket, sturdy wheels and tyres and plenty of carrying capacity. But the Corsa is smoother, more comfortable, 5kg ligher, and faster. Best of all, its new and shiny :)
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Baalzamon » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:38 pm

For Audax majority of rides are not flat. There are a few where I'd happily use a 2 wheeler, but anything with a nice hill in it would be trike material. Imagine starting on a hill on a 2 wheeler that is quite steep. At least on a trike you don't have to put feet down
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Bobmcar » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:42 pm

Hi Folks
First post, have been following conversation with interest. Seriously considering purchasing a Giro 26 as my first recumbent. Have been exchanging emails with Ian at Flying Furniture as there doesn't seem to be many dealers in Melbourne. Actually havent seen many recumbents around which surprises me. Ian has been helpful, in assisting me decide what type of recumbent would be a good choice. Quite excited about trying it out although a little concerned in the change in riding style after riding conventional bikes for most of my life. Anyway will see how it develops. Great to be able to read different peoples opinions and impressions.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Rowley Runner » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:47 pm

Hey Bob,

I purchased two bents in quick succession. My first was a bent with 20" rear and 16" which is a fun to ride but very low, however my giro with 700c wheels is a way better. The giros high up position makes you feel safer on the road as you are more visable. I had no problems swiching from a normal bike to a bent. Down sides are you cant hop up and down kerbs and slicing though traffic is not reccomended (by me). The up side is comfort and speed i hit a very respectable 68kph the other day which is way faster than i have ever been before. I love riding the recumbent and people tend to wave at you as you go by, i find the riding experiance much more positive. I have also found that i can fit my bike inside my tiny Mazda 2 so am thinking of attending some races soon in ACT which appears to be the natural breeding ground of all things recument.

Go for it!

RR

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:56 pm

Hi Bob,

I'd second what RR says. My first recumbent was a Giro 26 and I think they're very suitable as a first recumbent. The relatively high riding position makes me feel comfortable in traffic or on group rides with other cyclists on upright bikes. The combination of a sturdy frame, disc brakes, comfort and aerodynamics makes for a very versatile bike, I've used mine for everything from daily commuting to 100+ km recreational and charity rides.

I definitely prefer 700c wheels over 26” though, I converted my Giro 26 and have never looked back. In fact I liked it so much I bought a 700c CA 2.0 frame kit and built that up to be my weekend bike :grin:

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:14 pm

I’ll second (third?) these comments. Although I would say that for me, the Bacchetta highracer configuration would have been a bit of a challenge as a first recumbent. I started riding recumbents with a bentech 20/26 which has a much lower bottom bracket and a lower seat height. Still high enough to feel comfortable in traffic, but much easier to manage in stop-start conditions. It was excellent preparation when it came time to deal with the more extreme highracer position. I’ve had my Corsa for nearly a month now and I'm really enjoying it. It pretty consistently averages 3kph faster than the bentech over all sorts of terrain, but most importantly, it just feels nice to ride. Go for it!
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Bobmcar » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:30 pm

Thanks Guys
I appreciate the words of encouragement. The change in riding style will take a little time I realize this but is achievable. Sounds from your comments looking into 700 instead of 26" wheels would be a worthwhile upgrade. There are a few options from what I have read and discussed with Ian. Any other options worth considering from you experience? Thanks again I appreciate receiving advice from people with experience of recumbents.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby bradwoodbr » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:32 pm

Check out if the Giro 26 you want will take 700c wheels. I know Graeme from this list was able to do this.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:53 pm

Giro 26 frames have always been able to fit 700c wheels, as long as you don't fit big tyres. 23's are no problem, 25's would also be fine, 28's may be close to the limit clearance wise. Graeme indeed did do this conversion, and I did mine sometime later. The main issue is finding suitable wheels if you want to stick with disc brakes (which I would recommend), you can buy wheels with road rims and disc hubs but at least when I did it there weren't many to choose from. I ended up building my own from XT hubs and H&H deep-V rims, I found it a rewarding experience and have ended up with a some very strong wheels that I think look great on the bike.

Regarding other upgrades, I'm not sure what the current spec is but the Giro 26 used to come with Avid BB5 brakes as standard. These work OK but in my experience required quite a bit a regular tinkering to keep them working their best and replacement pads weren't easy to find. I found the modest upgrade to BB7 brakes to be well worthwhile, in my opinion these work a bit better but more significantly are much easy to adjust and require a lot less fiddling with, and compatible replacement pads are everywhere.

The other common change that people make with these bikes is replacing the shifters, though this is really a matter of personal taste. Bar end shifters are a popular alternative to the standard twist grips, though some do use thumb shifters. Personally I love Shimano's MTB 'brifters' on my Giro but I don't think they even make them anymore, they never did catch on with the MTBers.

I have found a few accessories to be excellent. The Fastback Double Century under seat bags are great for carrying water and essential tools, pump, spare tubes, etc. The Radical Design Solo Aero seat back bag also works really well on a Giro. I keep both on my bike all the time. Mirrors are important on most recumbents, a pair of Evo Lites from Calhoun Cycles works well for me. There are a few others I use, but those are the important ones.

I'd recommend checking out the official Bacchetta forums too, there's a lot of good advice to be had there.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Bobmcar » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:40 pm

Thanks Hotdog for the suggested upgrades will take the recommendations on board. It's become apparently over the years and a variety of bikes that if possible its best to upgrade when purchasing the bike as you can often save a few dollars. Obviously everyone likes to adjust and tinker but the bigger ticket items like wheels and brakes can be expensive to replace. Really appreciate the advise. Been riding for years but am looking forward to the recumbent, been something I have been considering for awhile. Just seems a logical progression in cycling development (and comfort). Thanks Again Bob
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:22 pm

Bobmcar wrote:Thanks Hotdog for the suggested upgrades will take the recommendations on board.


You're welcome Bob, happy to help.

One more thing that's probably best considered prior to purchase is the steering arrangement. You may have spotted that Bacchetta's Giros, Stradas, etc., come with a 'B-pivot' at the base of the handlebar riser/stem as standard, while the Corsa and Carbon Aero have no pivot. The pivot has an adjustable back stop which enables you to adjust how far the handlebars are away from you and also to fold the handlebars forwards when mounting/dismounting or storing the bike. This sounds like a good thing however in my experience (and I'm not alone in this) it's not actually very helpful in practice. Unless you have unusual proportions or use extremely upright or reclined seat positions it's very likely that you'll be able to get the handlebars into a comfortable position even without the pivot. In my opinion the ability to fold the handlebars forward does not help with getting on or off the bike either and it's actually a hindrance when handling the bike while on foot, the pivot has an irritating tendency to fold when you don't want it to. In fact I think the only real advantage to the pivot is it does enable the bike to take up a bit less space when being stored. The fixed angle riser/stem arrangement is lighter, simpler and stiffer, hence its use on Bacchetta's more performance oriented models.

It's worth thinking about this in advance because switching from with pivot to without at a later date requires buying a new front fork. This is because the pivotless setup requires an uncut fork steerer tube whereas when a pivot is installed the steerer is cut level with the top of the pivot base. I made the conversion on my Giro but only when I broke the fork and so needed to get a new one anyway.

Edit: Old forum post with photos of my Giro showing 700c wheels, BB7 brakes, pivotless riser/stem, under seat and seat back bags, mirrors and a few other modifications and addons (e.g. shifters and rear derailleur).
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Bobmcar » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:33 pm

Thanks Hotdog, have noticed in other places the discussion regards the pivot - doesn't seem many riders appreciate it. Email led Ian at Flying Furniture regards the wheels and there isn't any problem fitting disc brakes on 700 or 26". He did mention the 700 do restrict tyre choice in regards to width as you did say. But I'm inclined to go with the 700 as I don't really see myself taking it off road or doing heavy duty touring which would require more robust tyres perhaps with extra weight. There seems to be a lot of choice in 700 tyre size. May have to go up and see him, would like to at least try a high racer first - I have no experience with them although about 40 years on a variety of other bikes :idea: and a few bruises, aches etc :-) thanks again. Bob
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:56 pm

Yeah, I'd definitely recommend going to visit Ian if you can, I did before buying my Giro from him. I got to see a variety of weird and wonderful bikes and trikes and test rode a Giro and a Corsa. He does a good job of showing an absolute beginner the basics, in no time at all I was circling the block.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Bobmcar » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:42 pm

Hi Hotdog think I will do that just a matter of organizing a long weekend :-) shame Canberra is so far. By the way impressed with your Bacchetta - great pictures. Bike looks terrific with the modifications. Thanks Again Bob
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby william » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:41 pm

+1 What Hotdog says.

I searched online for ages about what I wanted and had so many images of many recumbent bikes.
In the end I had my mind set on a Giro 20/26 because I didn't like the really high bottom bracket of the 650C wheeled Corsa. I was ready to purchase without seeing it but as many online riders had stated they suggested to ride as many as you can so...
Off I went to Canberra from Melbourne to get my Giro 20/26, so I thought.

After speaking with Ian about what I wanted to do he suggested a few including the Giro 20 but he wanted to steer me towards the Corsa but I really wasn't interested in a bike that needs a step ladder to reach the bottom bracket so I got on a low racer and that wasn't going to work as stability is distant to anything I'd ridden before And looking up to the door handles of a car was daunting with regards to safety. So, no low racer despite the fact they look sleek and fast and curvaceous and fast and, Oh! just lust I suppose.
Then I rode the Giro 20 being the last one I wanted to ride and buy but, when I got on and tried to ride off it was like I was a 5 year old again trying to ride my big brothers bike for the first time. Woah! Is this for real. I was wobbling all over the place with ian telling me to relax but I just wasn't getting it and felt totally disillusioned by all my research going down the drain.
I handed it back without wanting to go through a learning curve that difficult.
Daunted I reluctantly rode the Corsa as Ian suggested but I was merely killing time whilst I was there and needing to say I did test one. Ian made a few little adjustments and steadied me for a take off. I gently moved away and instantly was impressed with how much different it was. I was racing around the car park like a pro who grew up one a recumbent. Really chalk and cheese. And more responsive to power input.

I slapped the money in his hand and the bike went straight onto my car. The next day was spent cruising around on my new steed like I was the new King of Australia.

So, if people suggest Ian or any other recumbent dealer where you can test ride various machines BEFORE you commit to purchase. DO IT.

After some time with the Corsa I did get a low racer too and now do not regret that either. Its all mental perception.

Another tip: get a really bright tail light.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Bobmcar » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:06 pm

Hi William
Thanks a lot for the comments quite reassuring, I have to admit I'm a bit paranoid regards riding a high racer. Not sure how I will cope with such a high BB. Ridden for years as I have mentioned before but this is something quite different. The support from everyone who has replied to me is terrific and helpful. Can see myself wobbling all over the place.
Just like you, had been researching on Internet, everyone is very passionate regards their stead - hard to choose. The Giro seems a good starting point though and I will visit Ian in Canberra during next school holidays and I will see if I can drop in on the monthly meeting of a group of recumbent riders ( cant remember their name of hand ) who meet down at StKilda pier to hear their opinions. Have seen pictures of the bacchetta giro but I havent even seen one in the flesh, can't believe there aren't more recumbent dealers in Melbourne. Thanks again - appreciate you outlining your journey regards recumbents, quite reassuring. Cheers Bob
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:59 pm

The high bottom bracket can seem intimidating but it doesn't make the bike harder to balance, in fact, perhaps a bit counter intuitively, it can make it easier. A higher centre of gravity makes passively stable things less stable but it's bit more complicated for bikes which rely on a combination of dynamic stability from the steering geometry and active stabilisation by the rider in order to balance what would otherwise be intrinsically unstable. At low speeds before dynamic stability really kicks in the bike is like an upside down pendulum, the bike (or pendulum) will naturally fall over but the higher the centre of gravity (or longer the pendulum) the slower the fall. This gives the rider more time to react and counter the imbalance, so in principle at least a high racer should be the easiest of all recumbent bikes to balance. This only really applies at low speeds though, once you're rolling along it's mostly down to steering geometry. Really you have to try a few bikes out and find out what configuration you feel most comfortable with. One thing that I will say about a high bottom bracket, which would apply to both high racers and low racer, is that clipless pedals are a must for all but the most casual riding, otherwise you waste a lot of energy holding your feet on the pedals and feel rather insecure when moving at speed.

What lead me towards a Bacchetta high racer was that I live in a hilly area (they have a reputation as good climbers, at least by recumbent standards), I like going on group rides with cyclists on upright bikes (I'm high enough to easily talk with the other riders and even slot into a paceline) and I wanted to commute on the bike too (the high racer eye level is about that of the driver of a sedan car).

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Bobmcar » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:36 pm

Thanks Hotdog, i'm sure its just a psychological thing, the perception is more daunting than the actual practise. Your comments are reassuring. By chance the reasons you have mentioned for your choice of recumbent basically align with my own :-
What lead me towards a Bacchetta high racer was that I live in a hilly area (they have a reputation as good climbers, at least by recumbent standards), I like going on group rides with cyclists on upright bikes (I'm high enough to easily talk with the other riders and even slot into a paceline) and I wanted to commute on the bike too (the high racer eye level is about that of the driver of a sedan car).
Thanks again appreciate the explanation.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby william » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:34 pm

Hey Bob,

That is something I didn't explain in detail. That high bottom bracket that daunted me in photos is non existent when you're on the bike.
You have excellent visibility compared to a low racer that has tiller steering where the controls are in your face - so to speak.
You'll also find yourself riding 2, 3 or even 4 times the distances you used to do.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:48 pm

Certainly agree with Hotdog and William - the highracer configuration mixes well with other bikes and the extra height does feel safer in traffic. Low speed stability is indeed very good – it is quite easy to ride at a walking pace if necessary. The long wheelbase and general layout also means it is very stable at speed. I’ve had mine well over 70kph and felt quite comfortable (wheeee!).

Hotdog may remember the Bike North ‘Pie in the Sky’ ride. There aren’t big hills on this ride, but enough that if you can’t climb you’ll be pretty slow. As it happens, it was run last Saturday for the first time in over a year. I remember last time I did it when Hotdog was there on his Giro and watching him disappear off into the distance with the fast group. This time on the Corsa, I was genuinely surprised to find myself up there with the fast ones.

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