Vander's Tour to Canberra

tiz1974 · Postby **tiz1974** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:12 pm

hi guys, i raced at west head on sunday, normally race B grade at eastern creek, and occasionally penrith, and most races finish in the top12 ! ive had a couple of placings, so raced in B grade, wow, big mistake, went into the red at about the 20km mark, couldnt recover, and pulled out after 26kms !! legs were on fire !! definately will race C grade there next time ! very tough course, much more training needed , to be able to stay with the B graders at west head !!

vander · Postby **vander** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:47 pm

tiz1974 wrote:hi guys, i raced at west head on sunday, normally race B grade at eastern creek, and occasionally penrith, and most races finish in the top12 ! ive had a couple of placings, so raced in B grade, wow, big mistake, went into the red at about the 20km mark, couldnt recover, and pulled out after 26kms !! legs were on fire !! definately will race C grade there next time ! very tough course, much more training needed , to be able to stay with the B graders at west head !!

Its all about how heavy you are my mate races B grade on the flat stuff and he finished in the top 5 out at west head its all about being sub 65kg

. At a touch over 80kg it was really tough for me.

ft_critical · Postby **ft_critical** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:53 pm

vander wrote:
tiz1974 wrote:hi guys, i raced at west head on sunday, normally race B grade at eastern creek, and occasionally penrith, and most races finish in the top12 ! ive had a couple of placings, so raced in B grade, wow, big mistake, went into the red at about the 20km mark, couldnt recover, and pulled out after 26kms !! legs were on fire !! definately will race C grade there next time ! very tough course, much more training needed , to be able to stay with the B graders at west head !!
Its all about how heavy you are my mate races B grade on the flat stuff and he finished in the top 5 out at west head its all about being sub 65kg . At a touch over 80kg it was really tough for me.

I have come second in combined A/B at 78kg. The next week I raced Tue Heffron and two of the KOM club riders who easily completed West Head were dropped out of B. I think it is more about the type of training you do.

tiz1974 · Postby **tiz1974** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:11 pm

i think thats true about weight, im 81kgs, 39 years old, so i really struggled when some guys were 65kgs !! i need a hernia op in the next couple of months, after that hope to start dropping some weight, ideally to be about 74-73kgs !!

toolonglegs · Postby **toolonglegs** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:37 pm

Power to weight... fastest times on strava are in the 75-84kg range

.
Westhead is a rouleur's course ... not a whippets.

AScyclist21 · Postby **AScyclist21** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:12 am

I agree, while it helps to be lighter and i could probably lose about 4 or 5 kilos myself i did manage to get 4th in A this Sun at west head. I weigh in around 74 or so. Its all about getting over the last hill in the front group to allow yourself a sprint.

vander · Postby **vander** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:12 am

I am thinking for the next month doing my training program like this.
Mon - Either FTP or VO2max efforts (FTP being hold 330W for as long as I can building to 20min x 3 with 5-10min rests between, VO2max being hold 500W for as long as I can building to 5min x 6 with 5 min rest in between)
Tues- Easy
Wed - Other Monday one
Thurs - Easy
Fri - Long ride with 2-3x 1 min all outs 2-3 x 20sec all out sprints in it (approx 4 hours)
Sat - Race
Sun Easy/Off

Ideas too much? This would probably be around 12 hours or so. Do this for 4 weeks then have an easy week where I do all easy rides + the race. This was just what first came to mind.

toolonglegs · Postby **toolonglegs** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:32 pm

If you can do 500w for 5 minutes then I am seriously impressed.
If you can't hold a steady state for the 5 minutes then it isn't really a vo2 effort is it?... As you are starting way above at the beginning and drifting way below before the end.
Like I say, if you think your FTP efforts will be at threshold by next month (330w) and you will be able to hold 150% of that pace for 5minute efforts consistently :-0 .

vander · Postby **vander** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:46 pm

From what I have read the idea is to elict VO2max not so much to hold it. As with my VO2max test I got cut short at 460W (and probably would of got 490) and I want to get 500W next time I thought that should be my aim. No I do not expect to hold it for 5 min but aslong as I can do it for 1-2 min its will train the system. So initially I do not really expect to get close to the 5min but hopefully by the end I will have a VO2max of 500W and we be able to get close to holding it for 5min. However I am starting to think I wont get close to it and should maybe drop it back a bit to around 450 for atleast the first few weeks, 500 sounds huge.

toolonglegs · Postby **toolonglegs** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:06 pm

A 5 min average of 500 w (at 75kgs) will put you in the exceptional / domestic pro level on Coogans scale...450w will have you riding at the pointy end's of A open.
VO2 efforts are best done at a steady state through out the 5 minutes ie: start at 400w and hold it for 5 minutes / rest 5 minutes / do it again / etc ... if you drop more the 10% stop doing them.
Yes there are lots of ways of doing them but it is all about time spent in that zone. Not way above it.
I think you are confusing what you did in a VO2 max test and what you would do in a 5 minute effort.

PS... I am no coach, but I wouldn't be doing many of these yet after the last 6 weeks you have had. I would be getting my VO2 from a couple of hard group rides or ONCE A WEEK

races. I would be spending my time at sweet spot till I started seeing the gains plateau.

vander · Postby **vander** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:44 pm

The reason why I am doing this is after talking to a mate he thinks I should focus more on track for now as that is naturally what I am good at and the longer term endurance takes longer to develop. These shorter intervals are more needed for track, however I do still want to do Canberra and some longer races at the end of the year. OK those number should definitely have me starting at 450W (possibly even lower). I like the idea of doing something at a higher power then extending that power over a longer period of time all the training I have done for other sports has been like that. I know I will only be hitting a couple of minutes for the first few weeks but I should be able to up that throughout.

I will do one tomorrow and see how it goes.

Strange Rover · Postby **Strange Rover** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:10 pm

The problem I see with your program is that you will be doing maximal efforts Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday...I give you two weeks max until you blow again...and then you will be back at the doctors asking them to tell you what illness you have...

Vander, have a read back through this thread and see where you have been for the last few months...remember that...remember you said you were going back to base...remember that made sence. What you did last ride was not base...it was PBs...maximal efforts...all good fun and now you know you are back...now that should be the end of it.

You have a power meter, use it to control your workload. What's your CTL at the moment?? Grow it at a max of 7 TSS/day per week and see if your body can cope. Design your workouts around a sustainable rate of growth and don't overstep the weekly workload no matter what...you need to be conservative here...because you have gone backwards over the last few months. Imagine how fast you would be now if you didnt blow??

Sam

vander · Postby **vander** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:27 pm

Good points especially how strong I would be if I didnt have to take 6 weeks off. It has gone up 4 and 6 last 2 weeks. So that sort of raise is sustainable. I think it will be almost impossible for me to do a base period. I do need to control myself.

toolonglegs · Postby **toolonglegs** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:32 pm

I love your motivation Vander!.
Remember sleep and rest is training though

.

ft_critical · Postby **ft_critical** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:35 pm

I don't see why you are doing VO2Max now at all. What happened to base, build, peak. I would drop back and do strictly endurace rides. See if you can back up 400km plus for four weeks at no more than Aerobic avg and no blips over LT either. Drop all the high intensity. Then if you are okay move into build. Strength and efforts in the sweet spot.

You have to build a sustainable programme. Sustainable for 5months to the end of a peak (assuming a two peak year.)

Really, this is the reason it takes so long to become a cyclist. You have done amazingly with the level of committment on and off the bike. But you can't fast track learning what you are capable of (what your body can tolerate.) It takes time and you have to do it slowly. Think a 4yr programme not a 6mths to Open A programme.

And, if you get a coach, get a cycling coach next time, I think.

I think if you can say you trained a whole year without getting sick, that is a bigger achievement in the early part of your career than a few wins in B grade club in the middle of your training cycle. You should be focussed on learning. Being an apprentice if you like.

But I wish you well and hope you are successful. I am also sure that not listening to us all is part of being 21

None of us listen/listened either.

Aussiebullet · Postby **Aussiebullet** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:58 am

Enduro trackies (the serious ones) do just as many hours/kms as roadies, seeing as they are all trying to achieve the same thing; capilary and mitochondria density.

Raising CTL and along with it FTP, VO2 and AWC is the goal, no one has or can raise their 5min power to ~150% of their FTP, so there are no short cuts to increasing aerobic capacity only set backs from poorly designed training programs.

Sometimes even I need to be reminded of this.

vander · Postby **vander** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:02 pm

Well thats a big resounding dont do it, understandably. I am thinking about it. I do want to do 1 Threshold 1 VO2 Max and 1 sprint session a week and still fit in a long ride and a race, so little time. I dont think I will be trying to do a big peak anymore, so the whole base build peak phase is not so important, I think I will be more aiming for a long build but no neglect any of the systems.

@FT all I hear you say is I challenge you to make Open A grade within a year (of first starting)

.

I must say all of this will be a lot more of listening to my body and seeing how I am coping, aswell as having a mandotory week off after 4 weeks on. At the moment it is going very good even after a big Tuesday I felt like I could go out and smash myself Wednesday but I refrained had the day off now to smash myself today. I am racing Oakville (Assuming its on as per there draft program) this Sat and Heffron (SUVelo) on Sun, so it will be an easy Fri and Mon for me coming up also. Then the weekend after is Bathurst hill climb and Crits.

Also I think I was getting 3min and 5min powers mixed up.

Strange Rover · Postby **Strange Rover** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:35 pm

Whats your current CTL? Do you have a reasonable estimate of FTP? There is a simple way to work out weekly total TSS to limit your CTL growth. Then once you know your weekly target TSS I figure you should be able to ride how ever you want without blowing up...maybe. At least this way you will have a number to work within.

Sam

AndrewBurns · Postby **AndrewBurns** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:15 pm

vander wrote:I am racing Oakville (Assuming its on as per there draft program) this Sat and Heffron (SUVelo) on Sun.

EDIT: Nevermind I was confused, found the details now.

rogan · Postby **rogan** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:33 pm

AndrewBurns wrote:
vander wrote:I am racing Oakville (Assuming its on as per there draft program) this Sat and Heffron (SUVelo) on Sun.
Looking at the PCC website it says "15/04/2012 Winter Road Series 2012. Round #1. 8.00am start " is this what you're referring to? If so seems that it's on Sunday, not Saturday...

I'm interested though, I've not yet competed in a road race (only criteriums) and I'm free this weekend.

The Parra CC "draft road program" is here:

http://www.parramatta.cycling.org.au/si ... rogram.pdf

It suggests to me that the thing at 8AM on Sunday is the Penrith race out at the lake. Parra CC would (probably) not schedule anything against that race anyway. It also states that there is road racing at the Oakville course on Saturday at 2pm. I am just going to assume it is on and turn up...

Vander - I will be there on a Black and Red EMC in (probably) Peloton Sports kit - let us know what you'll be wearing, and I'll say g'day. I'll be trying my luck in B Grade...

AndrewBurns · Postby **AndrewBurns** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:38 pm

Yep I was confused by "PCC" and thought Penrith. What format is the race, from what I can see it's a ~7km course, how many laps, handicap or graded etc?

I'll probably turn up and give it a go though I usually race C-grade at Heffron, not sure what grade I'd be out there. I'm the guy in the bright red DHBC jersey, if you see me say hello because I won't know anybody there

vander · Postby **vander** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:44 pm

rogan wrote:
Vander - I will be there on a Black and Red EMC in (probably) Peloton Sports kit - let us know what you'll be wearing, and I'll say g'day. I'll be trying my luck in B Grade...

Ill be out there in just a plain white jersey and black knicks on a black Focus. Im going to have a crack at B grade also.

On another note I had a crack at the 450W efforts and got humbled big time they are harder then I thought. I was definitely thinking 3min efforts (which are true VO2max efforts). Anyway first effort was about 2min and the rest were between 1:10 and 1:30, they were a lot harder then I thought and that was only 450W. So the goal is 450W for 3min at the end of the month. I did like these efforts they were hard and I think I will keep doing them.

Set a new peak 2min power of 450W however my CP curve says I should be at around 500ish so its not really that amazing.

NP 253W
Av only 118W
Shows how hard they are on the body.

toolonglegs · Postby **toolonglegs** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:20 pm

I would suggest that 450w for two minutes is WAY above vo2 for you... So you are actually training in the zones way above, what ever they are called.
3 minutes or 5 minutes... It is all about the amount of time spent in the right zone... Effort shouldn't be dropping more than 5% over the effort... Rest and do it again... And again. Going all out for power records means you can't repeat it.
My 5 minutes efforts used to go 440 450 460 average for each 5 minutes

vander · Postby **vander** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:27 pm

toolonglegs wrote:I would suggest that 450w for two minutes is WAY above vo2 for you... So you are actually training in the zones way above, what ever they are called.
3 minutes or 5 minutes... It is all about the amount of time spent in the right zone... Effort shouldn't be dropping more than 5% over the effort... Rest and do it again... And again. Going all out for power records means you can't repeat it.
My 5 minutes efforts used to go 440 450 460 average for each 5 minutes

Admittadly it would be but the only way to get my VO2max there is to train there. Wasnt going for records only reason why I think I got it is I havent done any real 2min stuff since I got my powermeter my 2 min previously was almost identical to my 6-8min. We will see how it works may aswell try it for a month.

toolonglegs · Postby **toolonglegs** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:32 pm

Find what you can hold nicely at a steady state for 3 to 5 minutes. Then rest 3 to 5 minutes and do it again.
Usually in the 106 to 120% of FTP range.
Start at the lower range and get used to doing them consistently ... They are hard but they don't kill you, don't go too hard at the start!. You will see gains quickly with these efforts but the base needs to be there for them to be long term gains.
Edit: %'s