HELP!

Individual and Team TT

HELP!

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:22 pm

:( ... ok carring on from this thread viewtopic.php?f=40&t=23648&start=50 (page 3 talking about my position).
Today I went out first on my "cough" TT bike and did a hard interval http://app.strava.com/rides/7384731#138347236 7.9km's with 4 rolling hills (bumps) at 48kmph - 9min54secs within a 20ish km ride.
Then I went out on my road bike straight after...smashed myself for 60kms, got dehydrated and hungry, did a 5 minute and 1 minute near full out etc etc and finished with the same TT section... http://app.strava.com/rides/7387636#138429435 7.9km's at 46.6kmph - 10mins 12secs.

TT bike had 50mm Duraace 7850's... roadie had Kysrium Races.
Same clothing, same bottles etc.
TT bike has 55 11-23 ... Roadie 53 11-28 ...both 180mm cranks etc.

WT?!...wind was pretty much the same. Yes I was 18 secs faster on the TT bike but come on!.... I was pretty damned tired at the end of the 2nd ride and certainly could of gone faster had I been fresh.
The climbs are not big... think rollers like Hefron Park but double in lenght for 2 of them... 4 times the length for the last one.

Yes I know a power meter would tell me everything... but I haven't got one. Maybe I should try and borrow one.
Do I set up my TT bike much close to my road bike position and go from there?.
I will set up my bikes on the trainer again later and do two photos and overlay them to get a better idea.

Joy! :lol:
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14373
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

by BNA » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:45 pm

BNA
 

Re: HELP!

Postby vander » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:45 pm

Could you maybe try jumping on your trainer and doing a 10min effort on the road bike and one on the TT bike in TT position and see your average speed on that. It will give you a rough idea if you are losing a lot of power in the TT position. Not as good as a powermeter but might do a good enough job. If its not the position that is losing you power its that its more likely its that the position is not much more aero then your road bike.
Image
vander
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
Location: North Strathfield, NSW

HELP!

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:59 am

That's not a bad idea vander... Would have to get a speedo though.
Anyway I did the photos and realized that I need to drop my head position down about 6 to 10 cms to get my head position lower than what I can get on the drops. My frontal area is a bit smaller but it is only a small amount because I am sitting with my shoulders higher. If I can get my head as low as on the roadie but keep the front tight I should see some advantages.
Not sure if I am going to be able to do this with this frame though!... But only one way to find out!.
Managed to drop them stem another 15mm ( took out the cap spacer that you are supposed to leave in there, but as it won't be getting as much torque through it as a roadie I will risk it)... And dropped stem to maximum... So maybe got another 20mm... Hopefully that drops my head & shoulders down a lot!... And my back can take it!!!!.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14373
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: HELP!

Postby BarryTas » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:33 am

just be happy that you have an awesome roadie :D
when do we stop for coffee???

Image
BarryTas
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:53 am
Location: Hobart

Re: HELP!

Postby Parrott » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:06 pm

:o That is fast on both. The tt bike should be faster than the roadie by more than that though. Either way the blokes in your club are in for a shock with those speeds. 8)
I'd go with Vander and do a longish effort on both in the trainer and see what cadence you are holding with the same resistance setting and same gear on each. Removes the wind variable.
User avatar
Parrott
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:45 pm

Re: HELP!

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:28 pm

There was bit of wind assist in there Parrot, but I would normally do a 45 average on a normal effort.
I am definately making less power on the tt bike, not much less though... but I have only ridden hard in that position 7 or 8 times so body is still getting used to it. As you can see from the photo I am quite a bit higher on the tt bike... although the road position is probably lower than what I would normally get ( but not by much ).
I measure my front axle to top of the bars on the roadie where I often ride with my forearms resting when going hard... it wasn't that much higher than the arm pads on the tt bike... so I have dropped the tt bars down as far as poss now.... arm pads are 6 cms lover than bars now.... but still a bit higher than the drops. Only way I can get it lower now is with a 130mm adjustable stem as far down as poss instead of the 110mm I have now. You can see old and new in the photos
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14373
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: HELP!

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:29 pm

Ok new position... tried it out, pretty comfy which means when I get a tt frame I will be able to refine it a bit more. Back is no issue at all... just my rh psoas muscle feeling tight as usual!.
New PB on a 13km triangular course... on pretty tired legs from yesterday so must be a fair improvement there (especially as I had to slow right down for roadworks on one corner).
Will have to work with this for the two tt stages in 10 days time....then can play around in the months to come!.
Image
Lose another 10 kilos / skin suit / disc rear / 82mm front / tt frame ... got to be another 2 or 3 kmph in that!.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14373
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: HELP!

Postby Parrott » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:19 pm

That looks fast, and the wheels etc should make a big difference also.
Its going to sound cool with your disc as you whoosh past the people in front of you 8) .Really missing the tt's now, none here.
User avatar
Parrott
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:45 pm

HELP!

Postby toolonglegs » Fri May 04, 2012 2:57 pm

Position is pretty fast ( for me anyway!)... But at the moment my rh psoas muscle won't allow me to hold it for long... Will have raise the bars a bit till I can sort it out :-(
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14373
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: HELP!

Postby PawPaw » Fri May 04, 2012 3:48 pm

TLL, for your roadie setup, you appear to have a lot of overlap between elbows on drops and knees at 3 o'clock.
I presume that's with a 110mm. Have you ever tried longer stems - 130 seems pretty intense. what about 120mm with a longer reach bar?

Re your psoas, are you sure it is that and not
- anterior hip joint degenerative or traumatic changes like calcification +/- tearing of the labrum. A hip quadrant orthopedic test might discriminate.
- lumbar discs near origin of psoas, that are either inhibiting or causing protective spasm. If the pain goes away with psoas release, it could still be the lumbar discs that are the primary cause of recurrent psoas tightening.

Vander might be able to explain some McKenzie's Extension in lying exercises, and advanced core strength stuff to ease the strain on the discs.
User avatar
PawPaw
 
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:53 am
Location: Brisbane

Re: HELP!

Postby toolonglegs » Fri May 04, 2012 4:01 pm

Had three MRI' plus Xray etc in the last two years... all good. My discs are good, bit worn out but normal for a big guy.
99% sure it is my psoas... it isn't a problem on the road bike, just in tt position. The position is good, yes knees brush elbows but no big drama ( plus my extensions are already at 80cm which is the max even with an exemption ).
Core strength is rock solid (can hold the plank for 5 minutes)...been doing hip flexor stretching and core exercises 3-5 times a week for the last year. But psoas is a really hard muscle to get to!.. I can do a reasonable release lying on a ball.
It is only one side and it decreases when I warm up... isn't even painful, just blocked and makes my leg rock.
I have a sports physio on my team for this coming stage race... will book in some more time with him, he is also a Physio for Cofidis so he knows his bike stuff well.
While it is very annoying I still have 3 months till I really have to have a good tt position...so hopefully I can get it sorted.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14373
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: HELP!

Postby vander » Fri May 04, 2012 5:32 pm

PawPaw wrote:Vander might be able to explain some McKenzie's Extension in lying exercises, and advanced core strength stuff to ease the strain on the discs.

We do almost no McKenzie stuff in undergrad.........Even though we will need it on placement and in clinic they decide its not really worthwhile teaching it.
Image
vander
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
Location: North Strathfield, NSW

Re: HELP!

Postby PawPaw » Fri May 04, 2012 5:58 pm

vander wrote:
PawPaw wrote:Vander might be able to explain some McKenzie's Extension in lying exercises, and advanced core strength stuff to ease the strain on the discs.

We do almost no McKenzie stuff in undergrad.........Even though we will need it on placement and in clinic they decide its not really worthwhile teaching it.


I suppose they've got you locked into the income generating ever evolving core stability paradigm - multifidus out of flavor, internal obliques all the focus, with an occasional mention of synchronous diaphragm and pelvic floor.

Man I hate the flavor of the month distortions created by a profession with an inferiority complex. McKenzies EIL make a hell of a lot of sense when done well and often enough. They at least improve circulation to discs and stretch adhesions due to inflammation in and around discs.
The thing the "flavor of the month" dimwits don't realize is health insurance companies base payouts on consensus within the profession.

I'll bet some physio outside AUstralia has McKenzies on utube.
User avatar
PawPaw
 
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:53 am
Location: Brisbane

Re: HELP!

Postby vander » Fri May 04, 2012 6:01 pm

Yea they say that you mostly use McKenzie in practice but they only really teach us Maitland techniques we do a little on McKenzie (I havent done it yet) but not much at all.
Image
vander
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
Location: North Strathfield, NSW

Re: HELP!

Postby PawPaw » Fri May 04, 2012 6:11 pm

vander wrote:Yea they say that you mostly use McKenzie in practice but they only really teach us Maitland techniques we do a little on McKenzie (I havent done it yet) but not much at all.


It is so simple, and so effective, it could be taught in one 1 hour prac, to an attentive class.
I've seen it work better than anything else especially Maitland, in acute, sub acute, acute on chronic, and chronic.
The other thing I think is underrated is David Butler's neuromechanical sensitivity stuff. Even though I think David is a wnkr, I have the utmost respect for the rigorous and methodical logic behind his system. And it could be developed further if he'd been given adequate funding. Instead, they just keep throwing money at Paul Hodges to re-discover the wheel. Though admittedly, Paul is a sharp guy. Though he just needs to wake up to the diff between pure research and money and ego making spin.
User avatar
PawPaw
 
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:53 am
Location: Brisbane

HELP!

Postby scotto » Fri May 04, 2012 9:08 pm

Totally off topic but finally a physio that I can agree with 100%.
And Vander, once you finish go and do the Mackenzie courses . Even if just to learn properly how to assess properly
User avatar
scotto
 
Posts: 2350
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:38 am
Location: Baulkham Hills

HELP!

Postby toolonglegs » Fri May 04, 2012 9:22 pm

The 2nd Osteo I had was going on about McKenzie exercises... I did them non stop for a long time... They did nothing at all for me. My back wasn't the cause of the problems.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14373
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: HELP!

Postby PawPaw » Sat May 05, 2012 12:12 am

toolonglegs wrote:But psoas is a really hard muscle to get to!.. I can do a reasonable release lying on a ball.


I bet your quadratus lumborum would be stiff and sore as hell after some serious deep tissue work. and loosening up your lumbar spine would stir things up.
I can't buy that it is purely independent psoas cramping.

Something underrated for psoas is a dynamic stretch where you stand and hold onto a fence pole etc with right hand, and swing left leg fwds/bwds progressively going higher each way. Start slow and low, and keep your trunk vertical.

As a core strengthener, the plank is for neurotic women or blokes recovering from stuffed discs. You want to get into more dynamic stuff, even push ups and wheel barrow race, TRW slings, Pilates cages and reformers.

TLL, what's with your seat post? looks like it bends forwards.
User avatar
PawPaw
 
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:53 am
Location: Brisbane

Re: HELP!

Postby toolonglegs » Sat May 05, 2012 1:06 am

The plank was just for an example... I couldn't do a push up two years ago with out my core giving out... now I can pump them out no worries...I have a pretty varied range of exercises I do.
quadratus lumborum...had to look that one up :lol: ... I am sure if you hammered it in a massage it would be pure painful pleasure :P . Yes my hips are very tight everywhere, although a hell of a lot looser than they were. The whole area got super tight when I was told to stop riding... everything just stiffened up. I am sure there are a couple of issues in there... just a slow process sorting them out.
Yes seat post is a Thomson set-back post facing forward... only way to get the saddle forward enough. But even like that I can only get it to 7 or so cm's behind the bb. But it is an Adamo ISM so that is equal to a lot further forward with a normal saddle.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14373
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: HELP!

Postby PawPaw » Sat May 05, 2012 1:46 am

How are you finding the Adamo? People I know who have tried it reckon the nose (what there is of one) is too wide, and rubs against thighs.
Well I understand your desire to get further forwards. In my view it helps even the watt generation between the gluts/quads, hams, and hip flexors. You can engage the hams so more powerfully when your knee is that much more forwards of the bb.

What's your knee angle at 6 o'clock?

Get your physio mate to hammer both QLs and the muscles between transverse processes and spinous processes of lumbar vertebrae. If you've had issues with your psoas, then they'll certainly be stiff as.

BTW, what's the chance of getting some of that kit you're wearing, if I send you some $s?
User avatar
PawPaw
 
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:53 am
Location: Brisbane

HELP!

Postby toolonglegs » Sat May 05, 2012 4:28 am

Kit is team issue... We only order once a year and the sponsors pay 75% of the price...Only condition is that we race 7 times at least in a season.
I tried the adamo on the road bike, didn't like it or notice any great help with the cut out. But put it on the tt setup and it is heaven!... Can sit right on the very nose for an hour without moving... It connects perfectly with the bones under groin. Took maybe 2 or 3 rides to condition the new seat bones but it is no problems now. Ok you wouldn't call that position comfy but I suppose it is a minor discomfort compared to doing tt efforts!. Never done solo tt so I can't comment on that yet :-) .
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14373
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!


Return to Time Trial

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit