Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby brisrouleur » Wed May 02, 2012 11:17 pm

I bought a 2012 Giant TCR Advanced 2 Last November, been cleaning the cassette by hand every few hundrew km with a folded rag between each gear. Tonight I wanted to give it a thorough clean to get the bike ready for the Noosa Century on the weekend and figured I'd remove the cassette from the wheel as it's easier to clean up properly. Seems the freehub body has been shagged somewhat from the cassette. I know this has been covered before as a topic, but in this case do you consider this normal wear/tear considering the age of the bike (~2000klms ) and the cassette has not been removed since purchase?

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by BNA » Wed May 02, 2012 11:51 pm

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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby PawPaw » Wed May 02, 2012 11:51 pm

Looks like you have a shimano cassette. SRAM's are one piece and the sprockets spread the load on the freehub.

There's two reasons that might contribute to your advanced wear
- the freehub is a comparatively soft alloy
- the lock ring wasn't tightened to spec (30-50Nm) when you bought it. A tight lock ring holds the sprockets firmly which helps prevent them from digging into the freehub.

You've just given me another reason to avoid Giant bicycles. I know too many people who are breaking spokes on Giant's P-SL range
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby brisrouleur » Thu May 03, 2012 12:07 am

Yeap, Shimano cassette...

I guess my question is, if the cassette lockring was tightened to spec when the bike store built the bike should I see this kind of damage? Or should I take it back and say 'hey the lockring must have been tightened properly'?
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby jacks1071 » Thu May 03, 2012 12:45 am

FrugalRouleur wrote:Yeap, Shimano cassette...

I guess my question is, if the cassette lockring was tightened to spec when the bike store built the bike should I see this kind of damage? Or should I take it back and say 'hey the lockring must have been tightened properly'?


Those marks are normal for an alloy freehub.

Ensure you torque the lockring to 40nm and they won't get much worse, you will get some marks even when using the correct torque but they won't get too bad.

Also understand the freehub has bearings in it which wear and are very difficult to replace, as such most people replace the entire freehub when the bearings are worn out my point being that the body only needs to out-last the bearings.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby jacks1071 » Thu May 03, 2012 12:51 am

PawPaw wrote:Looks like you have a shimano cassette. SRAM's are one piece and the sprockets spread the load on the freehub.


Its only the Sram Red that are one piece, the force and rival are seperate pieces just like the Shimano.

We built a bike the other day with latest Sram Red, the inside of the cassette was machined out so much that the contact area on the freehub was very small, only about 10mm of contact for the entire freehub. Will be interesting to see how they hold up but it didn't seem like a very good idea to machine it out so much.

I'll remove the cassette when we service it in a few months to see if its chewing into the freehub.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 1:23 am

jacks1071 wrote:Those marks are normal for an alloy freehub.


I disagree the marks are normal at 2,000km, even on a powertap freehub. I'm even more inclined to believe the lockring wasn't torqued enough. Doubt there's any point complaining to the LBS, seeing FR has already interfered with the torque settings.

Thx for correcting me on the sram spiders. I should know better than to take any one mechanic's word, especially when he is trying to sell me something.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby mitzikatzi » Thu May 03, 2012 1:32 am

Mine looked like that too after a short time.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 3:22 am

I've been swapping and borrowing wheelsets recently, hanging at a LBS doing some of my own maintenance, and helping mates change cassettes for big climbs, and of around 15 freehubs, I've not seen teeth marks like that on wheels with anything under 15,000km. And I've been paying attention, because I've been wondering whether I should buy stainless steel ones. However, I concluded I may as well get light cheaper hubs and replace their cheap alloy freehubs as necessary; as they didn't seem to deteriorate as quickly as the word on the street had me believing.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby brisrouleur » Thu May 03, 2012 9:56 am

PawPaw wrote:I'm even more inclined to believe the lockring wasn't torqued enough. Doubt there's any point complaining to the LBS, seeing FR has already interfered with the torque settings.


I guess that's the thing hey. I mean, how could I prove that I hadn't tampered with the cassette prior - they would just have to take my word on it. But I am a little disappointed that it has sustained this much damage after such a short period given the likelihood it was due to incorrect torque from factory.

I think I'll still take the wheel in and have a chat to the guys before I put it all together again to see what they say. I'm sure they'll have a good idea on what the typical marks should be on the freehub given the life of the bike so far.
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Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby Comedian » Thu May 03, 2012 10:30 am

FrugalRouleur wrote:
PawPaw wrote:I'm even more inclined to believe the lockring wasn't torqued enough. Doubt there's any point complaining to the LBS, seeing FR has already interfered with the torque settings.


I guess that's the thing hey. I mean, how could I prove that I hadn't tampered with the cassette prior - they would just have to take my word on it. But I am a little disappointed that it has sustained this much damage after such a short period given the likelihood it was due to incorrect torque from factory.

I think I'll still take the wheel in and have a chat to the guys before I put it all together again to see what they say. I'm sure they'll have a good idea on what the typical marks should be on the freehub given the life of the bike so far.

I would take it into the shop.

I really doubt they would have touched that during the build. From what I understand the better bikes are nearly complete when they arrive from the factory.
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby deadrat » Thu May 03, 2012 10:39 am

As Jacks said, completely normal. Those Giant wheels would prob cost about $7 to make (or thereabouts). The freehub body would not be of 'high quality'. You want high quality get steel = heavy wheel or titanium = more expensive. As long as cassette is not moving once torqued up it's not an issue.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 10:50 am

deadrat wrote:As Jacks said, completely normal.


Completely normal for 2000km and a lockring torqued to spec?
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby brisrouleur » Thu May 03, 2012 11:04 am

PawPaw wrote:
deadrat wrote:As Jacks said, completely normal.


Completely normal for 2000km and a lockring torqued to spec?


I'll get the LBS opinion on this and report back. It is an interesting debate - I can understand how easily an alloy FH can get these marks, but I don't have the experience of pulling down lots of them to notice what is normal or not.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 11:25 am

Comedian wrote:I really doubt they would have touched that during the build. From what I understand the better bikes are nearly complete when they arrive from the factory.


Yes it seems many LBSs don't even do safety checks, which involve re-torquing, before delivering a new bike to a customer. Next time you see my ex, ask her about the 5 bikes bought by her sons and mates last year. All of them had issues with loose key components (bars, pedals, derailleurs, brake caliper to tubing bolts) within the first 100km.

Though not all LBSs are equal. My bike had everything re-torqued and loctite or grease applied where relevant, because the LBS said manufacturer standards are highly variable. I know of 3 Brisbane LBSs that don't let new bikes out the door without re-torquing.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 11:34 am

FrugalRouleur wrote:I'll get the LBS opinion on this and report back. It is an interesting debate - I can understand how easily an alloy FH can get these marks, but I don't have the experience of pulling down lots of them to notice what is normal or not.


If your LBS responds it's normal, then they need to explain why so many alloy freehubs don't have bad teeth marks after 2000km. If you like, I'll post a pic of my alloy freehub with 22,000km on it. It's nothing like yours. I guess mine is abnormal. :D

The reason advanced teeth marks might be normal is because it is normal NOT to tighten the lockring to spec on new bikes. :!:

Though I presume logic like this would be lost on many. :wink:
BTW, my friends and I use your web portal heaps. Anyone who can design something like that is highly logical in my view :D
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby brisrouleur » Thu May 03, 2012 1:11 pm

Be good to see a picture of yours for interest sake. Though for a true comparison, we'd need to determine the softness of the alloy in both cases. One may be more susceptible to damage when outside the specified torque settings. Best comparison would be if someone else on here has these wheels and could post up a pict.

That website isn't actually run by me it's just a coincidence of names :wink: But it is a great website, I use it too :D
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby jacks1071 » Thu May 03, 2012 1:21 pm

PawPaw wrote:
deadrat wrote:As Jacks said, completely normal.


Completely normal for 2000km and a lockring torqued to spec?


Looks very completely normal for an alloy freehub and its a non-issue. You'll never know if it was torqued at the shop unless you checked it before removing it but regardless you've got nothing to worry about.

Ensure you torque it up properly when it goes back on and it'll be happy days.

Wear on the freehub as pictured is only of concern if you are getting close to the point of failure. If you properly torque the lockring you'll always wear the freehub bearings out a long time, probably 20,000kms BEFORE you chew through the freehub to the point of failure.

The only really mashed up alloy freehubs I've ever seen are from people who we know didn't torque the lockring. By not doing it up tight enough the cassette pieces are not locked against each other so the contact area is very small - of course this will chew up the freehub badly, especially if you are a sprinter or climber.

Hope that makes sense?

As such - this wear is not of concern. Everyone could use heavy steel freehubs and they don't chew up, but they still don't last any longer as they have bearings in them are generally too much work to try and replace.

The freehub is considered a consumable item like bearings, as long as you don't chew it out before the bearings are worn out then its done the job.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby danny the boy » Thu May 03, 2012 1:24 pm

Ive got the same wheels but have only done about 900ks on. Took the cassette off this week and there was no marks at all. Interested to know what type of cassette this is though?

Edit. Googled it.
Last edited by danny the boy on Thu May 03, 2012 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby gururug » Thu May 03, 2012 1:26 pm

Does seem a bit much for 2000km, i'm with Jacks though, shouldn't be an issue over the longer term.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby jacks1071 » Thu May 03, 2012 1:31 pm

PawPaw wrote:
FrugalRouleur wrote:I'll get the LBS opinion on this and report back. It is an interesting debate - I can understand how easily an alloy FH can get these marks, but I don't have the experience of pulling down lots of them to notice what is normal or not.


If your LBS responds it's normal, then they need to explain why so many alloy freehubs don't have bad teeth marks after 2000km. If you like, I'll post a pic of my alloy freehub with 22,000km on it. It's nothing like yours. I guess mine is abnormal. :D



PawPaw, do you use a SRAM cassette?

All wheel manufacturers fit what I call 9sp compatible freehubs these days.

The Shimano 10sp cassettes since about 5 years ago are designed for higher ridges on the spider pattern, this was bought about when wheel manufacturers started using Alloy freehubs. The higher ridges don't chew up anywhere near as bad - BUT the higher ridge is not compatible with a SRAM cassette.

The wheel manufacturers who had gone to Shimano 10Sp specific freehub designs (Pro-Lite included) were forced to go back to the 9sp freehub since SRAM became so popular in the market place. It was not viable to run two different 10sp freehub designs, one for Sram, one for Shimano.

Anyway, a Sram cassette won't chew up a "9sp" hub body quite as much because it is a little more snug fit, they will still mark though with the exception of the one-piece cassette. If you run a one-piece older model Sram Red cassette then you won't get ANY marks on it because the contact patch is huge and there is no movement in the cassette.

If you try some other cassettes (not one piece) you'll understand a little better, all alloy free hubs will mark up like the OP when run with a normal "loose" (not one-piece) cassette. I know some alloys are harder than others but I've never seen an alloy hub body that didn't mark up.

In anycase, it really is not of concern. I maintain that if you do up the lockring to 40Nm, the bearings inside the freehub will be worn out a long time before the hub body is chewed through and if you don't maintain the freehub bearings you'll end up looking for a new wheel axle when they fail and chew up the axle...
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby jasonc » Thu May 03, 2012 2:05 pm

I can take a photo of my shimano RS10s with 5000km on them. I don't remember any marks on them.
let me know.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby jacks1071 » Thu May 03, 2012 3:19 pm

jasonc wrote:I can take a photo of my shimano RS10s with 5000km on them. I don't remember any marks on them.
let me know.


They use a steel freehub, hence no marks. The alloy freehubs are pretty much standard equipment on more light weight models.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby toolonglegs » Thu May 03, 2012 3:58 pm

The reason I like DuraAce wheels...Ti freewheel bodies.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby eeksll » Thu May 03, 2012 3:59 pm

my dt swiss freehub is about what the OP's looked like with ALOT less kms on the clock (<250km), after more km's it has not got worse, but I am now using the American Classic pins.

The spacers on my 105 cassette don't look like they would generate alot of friction between them and the cog, so I doubt 40Nm of force is really enough to clamp it altogether and stop movement, its enough to ensure they are not loose.

I am not a engineer in this space, but if I understand correctly what 40Nm means,
40Nm = 4.1 kg meters
so that is 4.1kg weight on the end of a 1 meter long spanner
to me that sounds like nothing.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels

Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 4:07 pm

No, because they're more expensive.

Though you might remember I trialled a used wheel with a powertap hub and a sram cassette fitted.
I've also trialled several other wheelsets in the last few months with sram cassettes on my ultegra 6700 groupset bike.

jacks1071 wrote:PawPaw, do you use a SRAM cassette?
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