Bacchetta 700c

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Bobmcar » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:12 pm

Thanks guys for all the replies. Up to me to get organized and visit Ian now. Appreciate all the assistance. Thanks for starting the topic David - after reading your comments and the others I realized that I could gain some real expertise and knowledge from you folk from posting. Thanks again. Will let you know how I get on :-)
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by BNA » Tue May 01, 2012 3:34 am

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Tue May 01, 2012 3:34 am

Well now I'm even more disappointed about missing that Pie in the Sky ride! I've recently restarted riding regularly after a long hiatus and was set on that ride being my first group ride for *ages*, but in the end I had to stay home waiting for a furniture delivery :sad: Hopefully it won't be too long before your Corsa and my CA 2.0 end up on the same Bike North ride David, I'd like to see it.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Tue May 01, 2012 8:58 am

Likewise. I'll do my best to keep up with that featherweight CA2 :D.

I've been thinking for a while that some sort of recumbent gathering would be interesting. I did read that there was one organised a while ago in the inner west somewhere. Not sure if it is a regular thing.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Tue May 01, 2012 4:17 pm

An old photo, but one I don't think I've posted anywhere before and on topic in a thread about 700c wheel Bacchettas :)

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Taken at the coffee stop during a Bike North ride last February. I still haven't tidied up that cabling around the handlebars and riser/stem... :oops: I had planned to neatly wrap it in bar tape like they do at the Bacchetta factory.

Edit: For a thread in which several people mention their new bikes this thread is seriously light on photos...
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Fri May 04, 2012 5:55 pm

Image


Here's my new Corsa in the same locale. This is the cafe at the boat hire place on the eastern side of the ferry. Very friendly people and nice coffee. Recommended.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby bradwoodbr » Fri May 04, 2012 10:03 pm

Great shot of your bike. Great colour and mudguards look cool.

How do I make a helmet visor like yours?
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Sat May 05, 2012 8:58 am

bradwoodbr wrote:Great shot of your bike. Great colour and mudguards look cool.

How do I make a helmet visor like yours?


Thanks! The mudguards are called 'Crud busters' and are designed to fit on racing bikes which don't have mounting points on the frame. Easy to fit to a recumbent.

The helmet visor is an old motorcycle visor and is simply taped on. I put it on as an experiment as I was struggling with watering eyes, especially in cold weather. It worked so well it's become a permanent fixture.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Sat May 05, 2012 3:05 pm

rdp_au wrote:Here's my new Corsa in the same locale. This is the cafe at the boat hire place on the eastern side of the ferry. Very friendly people and nice coffee. Recommended.


Nice photo and a good looking bike :smile:

Mine was taken at Quays Marina, just down the road from Church Point. The cafe there makes for a really scenic coffee & cake break. It is (our at least was) used on the Bike North Hills & Surfside ride, much nicer than The Flying Fox Cafe that used to be used.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Sat May 05, 2012 6:36 pm

rdp_au wrote:Thanks! The mudguards are called 'Crud busters' and are designed to fit on racing bikes which don't have mounting points on the frame. Easy to fit to a recumbent.


They sound similar to the SKS Race Blades I use on my Giro. They don't need mounting points either and can be fitted or removed in a matter of minutes.

The helmet visor is an old motorcycle visor and is simply taped on. I put it on as an experiment as I was struggling with watering eyes, especially in cold weather. It worked so well it's become a permanent fixture.


Interesting approach, the result is probably similar to something like a Kask Crono TT helmet, but far less extortionately expensive!

Personally I've always found a pair of cycling sunnies (with interchangeable lenses) sufficient to prevent the eye watering problem but I can see advantages to using a helmet visor instead.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby John Lewis » Sat May 05, 2012 7:07 pm

Nice bikes guys. Now if only my legs were a bit longer.

Couple of local recumbenteers have done helmets like yours David. I think they used replacement safety mask shield lenses or whatever they are called , from Bunnings. They used them on a ride from Albany to Adelaide.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Sun May 06, 2012 6:18 pm

Hotdog wrote:
rdp_au wrote:
The helmet visor is an old motorcycle visor and is simply taped on. I put it on as an experiment as I was struggling with watering eyes, especially in cold weather. It worked so well it's become a permanent fixture.


Interesting approach, the result is probably similar to something like a Kask Crono TT helmet, but far less extortionately expensive!

Personally I've always found a pair of cycling sunnies (with interchangeable lenses) sufficient to prevent the eye watering problem but I can see advantages to using a helmet visor instead.

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I have an expensive pair of prescription sunglasses which work very well. Alas, their shape means that they make my eyes water ferociously when I'm on the bike. The visor fixed the problem completely. I do get some strange looks at times, and probably confirm a number of prejudices about recumbent riders in the eyes of the conventionally mounted :)
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Phil » Sun May 13, 2012 7:34 pm

Well you guys are going to guilt me into putting a photo up of mine now. Its pretty boring, inasmuch as I have done nothing to it but ride it.

Really not a huge fan on the the twist grips, I find them harder to shift that you would think, the SRAM Bar-ends on my trike work so much nicer, also prefer the 2x10 setup on the trike, so the triple chainring is only going to last long enough for me to afford a set of double Q rings.

I am still starting off like an incompetent, OK once I get going with low speed handling, funny how slow and sharp a turn you can make on the Bacchetta and still stay upright.

Finding it a helluva lot quicker than the trike, cruising on 33kph v 27-28kph on the same stretch at the same time of day. Managed a 35kph average from the Narrows to Canning Bridge into a freshi Southerly yesterday afternoon that quite surprised me, Strava says its my second fastest on that segment, and I know for a fact I did the fastest on a morning with a NE tailwind. Very impressive stuff.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Sun May 13, 2012 11:05 pm

Phil wrote:Really not a huge fan on the the twist grips, I find them harder to shift that you would think, the SRAM Bar-ends on my trike work so much nicer, also prefer the 2x10 setup on the trike, so the triple chainring is only going to last long enough for me to afford a set of double Q rings.


That was my experience with the twist grips that came on my Giro. They worked well enough but were rather stiff. I found they made cycling gloves more or less essential instead of optional, with bare hands I would struggle to get enough enough grip to reliably shift once I'd worked up a sweat. The Shimano Dual Control levers on my Giro are much better, and I'm also happy with the SRAM bar end shifters on my CA2.0.

As for triple versus double cranksets between my Giro and my CA2.0 I've used both on Bacchettas. While quite a few seem to disagree (including the people at Bacchetta who decide the stock specs) I think you're right that a 2x10 setup is great for a CA2.0. It's a light bike, is not intended to be used for carrying heavy loads, and with a compact double and a wide range rear cassette you can get a pretty wide range of gear ratios anyway. As long as your local terrain isn't full of massive hills (probably not as you're in Perth?) then 2x10 seems perfectly sensible to me. Sydney is pretty hilly and I'm certainly not a champion climber but I've been very happy with my 50/34 & 11-32 SRAM Force/Rival drivetrain.

On the other hand I don't see any big downsides with a triple. Sure they're marginally heavier and the front derailleur requires three adjustments instead of two but a triple can allow either a wider overall range of gear ratios or, perhaps more usefully, the same overall range of ratios but with smaller steps between ratios, both chainrings and cassette. I believe the later is the main reason a fair few Team Bacchetta riders have triples on their racing CA2.0s. I certainly feel no compulsion to replace the triple that came on my Giro, admittedly that is a heavier bike that I weigh down with accessories and luggage for commuting so I do sometimes appreciate the lower bottom end.

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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Phil » Mon May 14, 2012 10:59 pm

Yeah I am having a bit of a rethink in terms of gearing, as I had a bit of a mechanical with the RD cable that meant I was only able to use the second highest rear ear and the next two up plus the three front chainrings on my ride yesterday. So I had a nine speed with a range of 105 - 46 Gear Inches is fairly large steps. Surprisingly this was actually OK - Could have done with some higher gears as was spinning out a bit on the downhills.

So the 52/36 Q rings (and maybe the Rotor 3G cranks as I love the red spider and they ain't too badly priced with the Q Rings) look like a goer along with an 11-32 cassette, probably will go with the Force WiFli RD and FD. I was thinking I was going to need to go with 11-36 and 50-34 as the trike is equipped, but the Bacchetta is just so efficient at turning muscle power into speed (even compard to my last roadbike) that the full MTB setup ould have been a bit of overkill.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Mon May 14, 2012 11:23 pm

Phil wrote:the Bacchetta is just so efficient at turning muscle power into speed


You can say that again. I've been having an absolute blast on mine over the last week or so, the CA2.0 just feels so smooth and fast, great fun :D There's certainly some room for improvement with my fitness at the moment (I'm working on it!) but the bike really rewards the moderate amounts of power I'm able to pump out.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Phil » Tue May 15, 2012 10:22 am

Hotdog wrote:
Phil wrote:the Bacchetta is just so efficient at turning muscle power into speed


You can say that again. I've been having an absolute blast on mine over the last week or so, the CA2.0 just feels so smooth and fast, great fun :D There's certainly some room for improvement with my fitness at the moment (I'm working on it!) but the bike really rewards the moderate amounts of power I'm able to pump out.


Yeah awesome to be back on a fast bike, it felt like the trike was making me slower the longer I had it, they have a chassis speed and you don't get alot of reward for pushing it into the mid-30s, its just hard work.

Sorted out my RD issues, so all good. Not happy that the dollar is sick again. Also not happy that I can't find Force Wifli RD on the UK sites. Must be time to flog off my laptop for upgrade cash.

This morning I was just cruising from Canning Bridge along the PSP on the way to work this morning, it was pretty dark when I left, by the time it was lighting up I could see I was nudging 40kph - then my inner quads decided that they would lodge an official protest, so dropped back to 34kph - into a mild headwind.

I swear its 90% psychological - but a fast bike makes you push yourself that much more, so they are a wonderful thing to own.
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Bacchetta 700c

Postby Rowley Runner » Thu May 17, 2012 4:54 pm

Re gearing. I have a triple front however as yet have never needed the granny ring. I used my giro with a trailer the other day and still didn't need the granny ring. Which was surprised me considering my payload consisted of 1 slab of beer, 8 litres of water and 12 cans of cat food!


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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Thu May 17, 2012 5:28 pm

Rowley Runner wrote:Re gearing. I have a triple front however as yet have never needed the granny ring. I used my giro with a trailer the other day and still didn't need the granny ring. Which was surprised me considering my payload consisted of 1 slab of beer, 8 litres of water and 12 cans of cat food!


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You gents must be a lot stronger than me - I also have a triple and use the granny gear all the time :cry: My excuse is that I do need to negotiate a couple of decent climbs on my commutes, Brown's Waterhole at 11% and Kissing Point Rd at nearly 17%. I find I don't really need to use it on anything less than 10%, but often do, as it gives me a few gears in reserve in case I need them...
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Phil » Fri May 18, 2012 10:45 am

I don't know about that - more a case of geography really. In Perth there are not that many steep hills and generally the steeper they are, the shorter they are. Really have to get out and about to do some hilly riding and pick your route.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Fri May 18, 2012 5:42 pm

I notice that the Bacchettas are shipping with 52/39/20T triples now. My 2006 Giro came with and still has a 52/42/30T triple which allows me to stay on the middle ring most of the time, but for the steep stuff (around 10% or more) that 42T chainring is too big for me, unless it's just a short pinch. In fact my approach is basically the same as David's, faced with any lengthy climb on the Giro I will generally drop into the small ring at the bottom and climb mostly in mid-cassette, but with my lowest gear ratios readily available if I need them. Much better that way than starting the hill in the middle ring, hitting a steeper section part way up, running out of cogs and having to either mash my way up at low cadence, lose all my momentum by easing off to change to the small ring, or trying to change to the small ring under load (rarely works well!). If I had a 39T middle ring I would probably need the small ring less, but I doubt it would change my approach to the long climbs. I'm pretty sure I would still be using the granny gear for Brown's Waterhole and the top of Kissing Point Road at least, those are pretty tough :shock:

I too am impressed that Rowley Runner hasn't needed the small ring on his Giro yet, even with a loaded trailer, especially as he seems to be from somewhere in the Sydney area so he must encounter some hills.

Making do with a double on my CA2.0 is a much less impressive feat, the compact double with 34T small ring isn't that much higher a gear ratio than the 30T small on the Giro. My lowest gear on the CA2.0 (34/32) is very close to, in fact slight lower than, the second lowest gear on my Giro (30/28) so going from my Giro's gearing to my CA2.0's gearing is really only equivalent to losing a single gear at the bottom (and a little bit at the top end). In fact I sort of experimented with this while I was deciding what gearing to build my CA2.0 with, I spent a few weeks riding all my usual routes while making sure I didn't use the bottom gear. After managing to ride up most of the local hills that way without too much trouble I concluded that the 50/35 & 11-32 would go low enough for me and ordered the parts.

I did also consider gearing the bike the same as Phil mentioned, 52/36 & 11-32 instead of 50/34 & 11-32, but I thought that might be pushing the bottom end just a little too high for me. It would gain me some top end but really in order to spin out the 50/11 I would have to be doing 65+ km/h, I figured I wasn't really going to miss the extra 4% that a 52T ring would give me. If I were to change the gearing of the CA2.0 in future it would probably be to replace the 11-32 cassette with a 11-28 one to get closer ratios, but only if my fitness is better than it is now. I did something similar (but less drastic) with my Giro a while back when I had to replace the worn out cassette, I went from the original 11-34 cassette to an 11-32 cassette as I didn't really need the lowest gears.

P.S. I'm sure everyone is aware of it already, but I find Sheldon Brown's online gear calculator great for this sort of thing. I've never really gotten used to thinking in gear inches so I find the speed at a given cadence output options very helpful.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby rdp_au » Mon May 21, 2012 4:35 pm

When I built my first recumbent (the trusty bentech – available in the For Sale section, in case anyone is interested :) ), I sourced the running gear, including the 26 inch (559) rear wheel from a late 80’s mountain bike I already owned. Gearing was a 48-38-28 triple coupled with a 11-28 cassette. This worked well during the familiarisation phase, but I soon found I could spin out at the top end, and needed a little more at the bottom for really steep climbs. I upgraded to a road 53-42-30 crank and an eight speed (up from seven) 11-32 rear cluster. This made a big difference – I didn’t top out until over 65 kph and could get up the steeper climbs with a bit more in reserve.

When I was contemplating the upgrade to the Corsa, I decided that as a baseline I needed to keep the same gear range, and made good use of Seldon’s calculator to compare various configurations. The Corsa is fitted with a 50-39-30 triple and 11-32 cassette as standard – this, coupled with my proposed upgrade to 700c wheels gave me basically the same top end, but the bottom was about 10% higher. Ian from Flying Furniture was of the option that the lighter and more efficient bike would offset the higher gearing. I thought he may well have been right, but he didn’t have to negotiate Kissing Point rd and its 17% on a regular basis :shock: . To get back my 10% safety margin, I had two options, go to an 11-34 or 36 cassette, or drop the granny gear in the triple to 28. I chose the latter, as I think keeping the ratios closer on the cassette is a better option. A range of 28 to 50 teeth is about all a front derailleur can handle – in fact, the standard microshift derailleur struggled and front shifting was very much a hit and miss affair. Believe me, there is nothing worse than dropping the chain off the granny gear at the bottom of a climb. I have now upgraded it to an Ultegra 6703 road triple which handles things much better. I also fitted a ‘dog-fang’ chain keeper to prevent overshifting off the bottom and dropping the chain. While cruising the local bike shop I noticed that a lot of road bikes with compact double cranks now have these as standard. This combination is working very well. Shifting the front derailleur is a little heavier than it was with the microshift, but the changes are smooth and positive. Speaking of shifters, I was also not a fan of the twist grips when I first got the bike. They seemed awkward and hard to use. After a bit more familiarity, I have to say that I've come to the view that they work quite well. I've never used bar end shifters other than a brief test ride on a trike. I'm not sure how they would work with the bacchetta 'pistol grip' hand position.

After having ridden the Corsa for a while now, I think Ian may have been at least partially right – the bike really is more efficient, and the only place I seem to need bottom gear is going up Kissing Point rd. On most other climbs I am usually in the middle of the cassette. I haven’t yet had the courage to try Kissing Point in a gear higher.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Phil » Mon May 21, 2012 6:20 pm

Yeah after a couple of rides on the weekend, includes a few "hills", my biggest annoyance is with the gap between the gears, generally staying on the 39 ring and moving through from 11 - 23 teeth on the rear (mostly cruising on the 13 or 15 tooth), spinning at 90ish on the 3rd smallest cog an upchange dropped me to 77ish rpm, I have probably been on Compact Cranks too long, but to me thats too big a jump.

Really the only way I am going to avoid big gaps is to stay with a triple and an 11-28 or 11-25 cassette, or to go with a 11-32 and 50/34 Compact - yes I lose out on hills but I have sussed out on Audax rides the seasoned guys tend to coast and recover down hills, and also its more important to keep up a sustained pace rather than flat out speed, that being the case. I am leaning towards the latter SRAM Force Medium Cage RD (due very soon now) and Force FD, 11-32 PC1070, and the Pauls Thumbies http://www.paulcomp.com/thumbies.html with TT500 bar ends, and some comfy MTB dual density grips. I had Force on my Commuter and I prefered it over my Ultegra 6700 on the Roadbike.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Hotdog » Mon May 21, 2012 6:26 pm

rdp_au wrote:Believe me, there is nothing worse than dropping the chain off the granny gear at the bottom of a climb. I have now upgraded it to an Ultegra 6703 road triple which handles things much better. I also fitted a ‘dog-fang’ chain keeper to prevent overshifting off the bottom and dropping the chain. While cruising the local bike shop I noticed that a lot of road bikes with compact double cranks now have these as standard.


Ooh, I believe you on that. I've had that happen to me a few times with the Microshift front derailleur on my Giro, and I've still got the marks on the bottom bracket shell to prove it. I think what happened in my case is that the bottom stop adjustment screw, due to just the right sort of road vibrations, backed itself off. At least that's the only explanation that I can think of for the time I started a ride with perfectly shifting gears but later on, after about 130 km, I started a climb, hit the shifter and had the front derailleur drop the chain neatly off the inside of the small chainring leaving me with no drive on a steep slope. I was pretty fatigued at that point so wasn't too happy about the emergency stop, roadside derailleur maintenance and very steep hill start that followed. I guess it serves me right for not using some sort of thread lock on those adjustment screws.

I've never had any similar problems with the CA2.0 (just as well, I wouldn't want to damage that lovely metallic blue finish! :roll: ) but the bar end shifters are a bit of a safeguard against that sort of thing. As the front shifter is not indexed even if the front derailleur stops were to somehow end up in the wrong positions it wouldn't automatically result in overshifting, I'd also have to move the lever too far for it to happen.
Last edited by Hotdog on Mon May 21, 2012 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Baalzamon » Mon May 21, 2012 6:44 pm

And here I was thinking it would be hard to draft a bacchetta, how wrong I was proven :mrgreen: I successfully drafted a CA 2.0 on sunday in Phil's Ice Vortex+. It was his CA2.0 I was drafting 8)
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Re: Bacchetta 700c

Postby Bobmcar » Mon May 21, 2012 8:50 pm

Been a few weeks but I finally got up to see Ian at Flying Furniture and rode a few recumbents, won't say I was an expert but felt reasonably comfortable to ride around after about 10-15 minutes practice. Rode a Giro ATT26 which was really great. Now I have abit of a dilemma which I though you more experience riders might have a point of view. The ATT26 seems a good fit as at my present weight 110 kg I'm at the higher weight limit, but with more work I trust I will get back down to more normal 90 kg ( blew out after I had some spinal surgery). Ian said diplomatically that the 26"wheels would be stronger and that later I could swap over to the 700's when I was ready, the disk brakes appealled also. As I want to use this for my weekend bike mostly and perhaps a one day commute seemed idea. Ian also had a CA2 650 there as well, didn't have the 700 wheels but is rated to take 110kg and is quite light being carbon and would be quick. The dilemma is if I get the ATT26 will I be disappointed later as I become more competent that I didn't go the CA2. Thought there maybe a few riders who could comment based on their experience.
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