compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

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compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby janus77 » Thu May 10, 2012 2:30 pm

Howdy folks.

I'm upgrading the commuter from 8 to 10 speed, wondering if anyone has experience with the compatibility of older cranksets to 10 speed? The issue would be if the chainrings on newer 10 speed specific cranksets are closer together (due to the thinner chain i guess).
I'm thinking even if this is the case, i can put some spacers between one of the chainrings and the crank to move them closer together.

Not sure if this is even an issue though..
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by BNA » Thu May 10, 2012 2:49 pm

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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby HappyHumber » Thu May 10, 2012 2:49 pm

I don't think there's too much to worry about.

I am running a 9speed set up with new Ultegra rings on 7400 Series Dura Ace cranks - they look very similar to the 6200 Series 600/Ultegra cranks. I am running the 7400 Series FD with it as well and that dates from around the 6/7 speed era. I think there's a little bit more trimming involved because the older FD cage being designed for a fatter chain, but it's not really an issue.

I wanted to run the nice 7400 RD at the back, but because it dates back to the narrow 126mm spacing days and only 6/7 speed - it lacks the throw range to quite reach the lowest sprocket.

Have a dust up read of Sheldon's general gear compatibility article. I think you find you'll be right.

I'm thinking even if this is the case, i can put some spacers between one of the chainrings and the crank to move them closer together.


Your logic escapes me here - how do spacers move things closer together?
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby janus77 » Thu May 10, 2012 3:06 pm

i'm not staring at my bike right now, but from memory (which is hazy at best), the chainrings mount on the frame side of the cranks, so if i needed the chainrings slightly closer together, i could put some thin spacers in between the large chainring and the cranks, which would effectively move the large chainring closer to the small so the gap was reduced. This would only matter if the 10 speed FD range was marginally smaller than 8 speed. Like i said, I don't even know if this is an issue.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby SpikeB » Thu May 10, 2012 3:11 pm

I've already done it, new Ultera 10 speed gear on an older 6 speed, 600 Shimano Durace cranks, Just needed the new chain rings, and a bit of fiddling around with the front derailuer and away i went, was more of a problem sorting out the rear with the new RD but doable, but what do i do with all those extra gears now!
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby janus77 » Thu May 10, 2012 3:14 pm

How come you needed new chainrings?
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby rkelsen » Thu May 10, 2012 3:29 pm

10 speed chain is narrower, so you need new rings.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby janus77 » Thu May 10, 2012 3:37 pm

hmm, did you try it with the 8 speed rings at all, or switched over straight off?
i'm going to try to use the 600 rings on the cranks and see how i go.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby HappyHumber » Thu May 10, 2012 4:10 pm

I went to the new rings because I had them sitting around from another aborted build and I thought since I had new chain & new 9sp sprocket - I thought the whole train being fresh would be best.

You description of the spacing of the large chain ring still has me flummoxed. But either way, I don't think it's necessary.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby janus77 » Thu May 10, 2012 4:39 pm

Yeah, my description doesn't correspond to reality.

Image

the large chainring screws down on the pedal side of the cranks, and the small chainring on the bike side, so adding spacers would only add to the distance between the 2.. would need to grind out the mounting points for the chainrings a bit on the cranks to get them closer. what i meant was if they both mounted to the cranks on the same side of the cranks, you could put a spacer in between the large chainring and the place where it sits against the cranks before screwing it down to lift it off the cranks a little, moving it closer to the small chainring.. urgh, anyway it's not relevant now.

Will see how i go with the 600 rings.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby HappyHumber » Thu May 10, 2012 4:50 pm

Possibly a case of over thinking it. Hey, we're all guilty of it at times ;)

Quit daydreaming at the PC (ha! I can talk) and go get all tactile 'n stuff with it front of you. I think you'll find it's a peith of pith ;)
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby janus77 » Thu May 10, 2012 4:52 pm

Hehe.

The tactile stuff i have in front of me at present are about 5 files, a notebook, keyboard and mouse.. I'm "multitasking".
Have to wait for the derailleur's to arrive before i can get started, hopefully tomorrow in time for the weekend.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby Alistair » Thu May 10, 2012 5:53 pm

I'm running 10 speed sram rings on old 600 cranks. Works fine
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby janus77 » Fri May 11, 2012 2:14 pm

Derailleurs arrived today, will install the 10 speed setup this weekend and report back on how the 600 rings handle the 10 speed setup..
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby HappyHumber » Fri May 11, 2012 2:56 pm

Probably too late now if you've bought it, but you might've got away with not replacing the FD. Still, you'll have a matching pair of mechs.

Broken that 200km milestone yet? I did a 220km Audax last weekend; 251 door-to-door :D Pretty chuffed with that - now psyching myself for a 300 next weekend!
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby janus77 » Fri May 11, 2012 3:52 pm

That's a great effort, nice work!
No, my record to date is 160km's, did 130 or so a couple of weeks ago, Newtown to Kiama. Might try Newtown to Newcastle next, sussing out roads that aren't full off hoons first.

Yeah, i figured the FD's are pretty cheap, and i'll sell the 600 Sti brifters with the front and rear mech's, good to keep them together if someone's looking to build a bike with an older groupset. actually the FD's 105 and the rear's Ultegra, so bit of a mixed bag.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby HappyHumber » Fri May 11, 2012 4:29 pm

my Mongrel Miyata (1985 "SevenTen" model) at the moment:

7400 Series crank (original adjustable cup BB)
6?00 9sp Rings
7400 Series FD
9sp SRAM ~mid range chain
9sp 12-27 ~mid range SRAM cluster
5500 9sp RD
7?00 Series DT shifters - friction shift. Bit sensitive, but hey I'm not racing. Shifts are easily tweaked.
Tiagra 4?00 Hubs/Vuelta Rims - certainly nothing special but I got the pair for nix kerbside! :shock: Soon to be replaced with 6700 hubs/Open Pros

This is my lightweight steel roady. I've been doing the bigger Ks on the Surly Crosscheck with 35mm tyres. Heavy, comfy and able to to carry some supplies. Though the hardcore more experienced Audax riders inspire me with their quite lean setups. I'm enjoying pushing my limits and learning how much less I need to carry on some of the shorter rides. Will probably be doing 150km/100miles on the Miyata before too long if I continue at my present rate.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby janus77 » Fri May 11, 2012 5:56 pm

Awesome, i reckon it's great keeping bikes functional like that.. 300km's, dang! I'd definitely need some granny gears for a 300km day.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby foo on patrol » Sat May 12, 2012 6:20 am

No problems at all. I've had the 10sd on my old (35yrs ago) roadie and no problems and full range of shift from my bar end shifters. :mrgreen:

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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby janus77 » Mon May 14, 2012 9:53 am

Had a pretty busy weekend, but managed to make some time last night to install the 10 speed gear.

Having an issue with the fd that has me stumped, it doesn't have enough range to change to the small ring (this is a double setup).
I've undone the limit screws, and even with the fd cable unattached, it wont even let the outside bar of the fd cage get in line with the big ring or go past it to the small ring side, the inner range has it sitting outside. So basically i can't get the chain to come off the big ring, unless i manually push on the fd to bend/flex it a bit it will just pop off, but then i have the issue where it's rubbing on the fd even on the big cog..

I thought maybe the fd was bent, but it looks pretty straight, the chainline is 41mm for the small ring and 46mm for the large, which corresponds with Sheldon's chainline guide for a Shimano road double.

If i hold the older RX100 FD i had on the bike previously over the top of the 105 fd, it seems to have more range on the small ring side than the 105.
I can't think what can be going on, unless there's something stuck in the fd, but i had a pretty good look at it.. annoying as i've connected the chain already (shimano).

Might just put the RX100 back on.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby master6 » Tue May 15, 2012 6:46 am

janus77 wrote:Howdy folks.

I'm upgrading the commuter from 8 to 10 speed, wondering if anyone has experience with the compatibility of older cranksets to 10 speed? The issue would be if the chainrings on newer 10 speed specific cranksets are closer together (due to the thinner chain i guess).
I'm thinking even if this is the case, i can put some spacers between one of the chainrings and the crank to move them closer together.

Not sure if this is even an issue though..


You are on the money. The older chain rings have a different "offset", resulting in a wider space between them. I have tried them with a 10 speed chain, and when changing down to the smaller chain ring, the chain sits between the two rings and I hit "neutral" gear. To get onto the small ring, I have to move the rear to the biggest cog, and this change in chain angle encourages the chain to the small front ring. Why do I put up with this? It is the training bike, and I am using up old gear.
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby __PG__ » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:46 pm

Ok I've been doing lots of reading. I'm in a very similar situation. I have a bike with Shimano 600 Ultegra 8-speed drivetrain. The chain rings are bent, and buying some 2nd-hand chainrings from bicycle recycle didn't really improve the situation. Having bent rings does make it difficult to tune the front derailleur position as you often get chain rub where you shouldn't.

Image

Getting good new 8-speed chainrings seems almost impossible. But there are plenty of good quality new 9-speed rings still around.

Now various people on the web will tell you various things. Sheldon Brown says the following about moving from 8 to 9-speed rings here
Sheldon Brown wrote:When the move from 8- to 9-speed took place, starting with 1997 Dura-Ace, a very slight change in chainring design occurred. Shimano was concerned about the potential for the chain to "skate" over the teeth of the small chainring.

"Skating" occurs when a narrow chain is used on a crankset intended for a somewhat wider chain. In downshifting, instead of the chain meshing properly with the teeth of the inner chainring, the side-plates of the chain can ride along the tips of the teeth of the small ring, causing a momentary "freewheeling" forward. If you are foolish enough to downshift the front while standing up, this skating could conceivably cause you to crash.

The difference between "9-speed" cranksets and older models is only in the inner chainring. The teeth on a "9-speed" inner ring are slightly displaced to the right to better accommodate the slightly narrower chain.

Shimano will tell you you need to replace the inner ring when converting an older bike to 9-speed. Their lawyers say that covers them if you're clumsy enough to hurt yourself due to "skating" and, besides, they make a nice profit selling the chainrings.

My advice is to not worry about this, and not to routinely replace the inner ring when upgrading to 9-speed. This type of "skating" is very rare, and mostly only happens if you're in top gear front and rear, then decide to downshift the front before downshifting the rear. There's no situation where this is a rational shifting sequence anyway.


Further comments are here
Sheldon Brown wrote:Old Chainrings, New Chains
There is a lot of confusion about the compatibility of narrow 9- and 10-speed chains with older cranksets. Shimano says you should replace the inner chainring(s) with specially designated 9- or 10-speed ones, but then they're all too eager to sell you stuff, whether you need it or not.

These chainrings have the teeth slightly farther to the right than the older chainrings to work a little better with the narrower chains. There is no difference whatever in the crank spiders.

The manufacturers also are concerned about clueless users. The worst-case scenario is that you will be riding along with the bike in its highest gear (large front, small rear) and then for some bizarre reason shift down in front before downshifting in the back. (There is no shift pattern in which it is reasonable to shift in this sequence.) [Not with a 9- or 10-speed cassette, to be sure -- John Allen] If you do shift this way, there's a small chance that the chain might "skate" over the edges of the teeth for maybe half a turn.

In practice this "problem" almost never materializes. Many, many cyclists are using 9- and 10-speed chains with older cranksets and having no problems whatever.
New Chainrings, Old Chains
Going the other direction, using wider chains with chainrings intended for narrower chains is not generally a major problem if there's only a one- or two- generation difference. The only problem you might run into is that the chain will be more liable to rub on the inside of the bigger chainrings in the small/small crossover gears, gears you shouldn't be using in any case.

This suggests that running an 8-speed chain on 9-speed chainrings is prefectly fine. However two posters on this mountain bike forum have stated in response to the following claims by Sheldon Brown that:
Someone on a mountain bike forum wrote:No No No, run the nine speed chain with the nine speed cranks, other wize you end up getting chain suck too easily. the nine speed chain works just fine on an eight sped cassette.

Someone else wrote:The width of the two chains is seriously different, the 8spd. chain will float sise to side creating nast wear, while the 9spd chain will work on the cranks and cass. fine. Trust me and mike on this dont do it unless you are stranded and dont have an option


Another interesting point is when you look at a shop that sells 'new' 9-speed rings this shop in Boulder, Colorado they say for their old Dura Ace 7800 ring
Shimano OE replacement Dura Ace 7800 39T/42T inner ring. Works perfectly when mated to a 7800 outer ring, but will work with any 130mm bolt crankset and 8, 9 or 10 speed drivetrain. Cut from straight block alloy, then profiled and polished to that high luster you expect from Dura-Ace. Not recommended for a single ring front(cross or fixed gear because of the tooth profiling).

Features
Fits all standard 130mm cranksets
Works with 8 ,9 or 10 speed
Cut, not stamped
High quality alloy and finish

I suppose I could try 9 speed chainrings first while keeping my 8 speed chain. If there is significant chain rub, then buy a 9-speed chain.

At some point this bike will get a re-spray and a full new groupset, but I'm just trying to keep it on the road for now (have already spend too much $$$'s on new bike which is coming later in the year).
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby JustJames » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:54 pm

__PG__ wrote:
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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby ironhanglider » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:57 pm

At first glance _PG_ your front derailler is way too high. Bring it down so that the outer plate is only 1-2mm above the teeth of the big ring at its closest. (This assumes they are not Biopace or similar non-circular rings)

Then make sure that outer plate is parallel with the plane of the rings.

Cheers,

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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:21 am

There will be always someone that will have had a problem with different combos. As I said earlier, I run mine with a 10sp chain with no problems at all and this is a crank set from the late 70s and another with a full Shimano bike from early 80s. :wink:

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Re: compatibility of Shimano 600 cranks with 10 speed

Postby __PG__ » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:33 am

I bought some new 9-speed 6500 Ultegra rings and rode them this morning. The shifting is much better than my old, bent 8-speed rings.

So far, so good.
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