Vander's Tour to Canberra

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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Sat May 12, 2012 7:04 pm

Another B grade race at Lidcombe. I missed Oakville as I was still not feeling well so thought I would go down to Lidcombe and make my decision last minute, I decided I have come this far may aswell race. It was a pretty up and down and slow in general race. Not many people wanted to work. I jumped on the front to do some work than turned around and I had a bit of a gap. I just maintained a steady tempo and held it for about 4 laps with someone coming accross and doing a bit of work also. However when the pack decided to speed things up they had no trouble catching us. Rest of the race I just sat in did a few turns on the front but nothing too hard. With about 1.5 laps to go there was noone behind me and the pack compressed so there wasnt much room but I found somehwhere and went straight to the front and took it pretty easy on the front. I had decided the wheel I wanted to be on and when he came past me I jumped straight on. Around the last corner I was in 3rd wheel. The guy infront of me dropped the hammer and led me out perfectly had me holding over 700W for the last about 40sec. With not much left I came around him pretty easy and there was only 1 guy on my wheel who didnt really challenge us 3 ended up a bit off the front. Surprised that I could do so well not feeling well. I coughed up a lung or 2 post race.

Time: 52min
Speed: 40km/h
Power: 233 avg (283 NP)
Peak powers werent that great and felt like I had more sprint than what I did to win I knew what I did was enough. Had to push 1300W out of the top corner but only 1200W to go around the guy who led me out. Definitely happy with that especially since im not feeling great. Now to get smashed out at west head tomorrow.
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Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby twizzle » Sat May 12, 2012 8:02 pm

Geez, those are impressive numbers. I'll have to look at the Coggan chart, but you must be getting up towards the top... and Joe Friel reckons it takes three years of racing to get most of the muscle adaptation done.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Sat May 12, 2012 10:30 pm

I have been tracking them recently. Baised on being 80kg (I am 81 at the moment) I would be in Cat 3 for most things and Cat 2 for 5sec (slight upward trend from FTP to 5sec). If I get to my race weight which I think I can get to which is around 70kg I would be Cat 2 for everything and Cat 1/Domestic pro for the sprint assuming I dont loose any power. I am not too worried about loosing weight at the moment as I would rather keep that in the bag for a trick later, but I think I should look at just dropping a few kg and getting to aroudn 75-78 which I can do pretty easy. I am eating terribly and my weight has stabilised at 81kg so I guess that is a good thing. I plan on testing all the numbers again monthly and see how they are going.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby foo on patrol » Sun May 13, 2012 8:32 am

I would be getting the power, fitness and technical side of things right, before trimming the fat from the bacon! :wink:

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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby mikesbytes » Sun May 13, 2012 11:19 am

How tall are you?
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby twizzle » Sun May 13, 2012 11:24 am

vander wrote:I have been tracking them recently. Baised on being 80kg (I am 81 at the moment) I would be in Cat 3 for most things and Cat 2 for 5sec (slight upward trend from FTP to 5sec). If I get to my race weight which I think I can get to which is around 70kg I would be Cat 2 for everything and Cat 1/Domestic pro for the sprint assuming I dont loose any power. I am not too worried about loosing weight at the moment as I would rather keep that in the bag for a trick later, but I think I should look at just dropping a few kg and getting to aroudn 75-78 which I can do pretty easy. I am eating terribly and my weight has stabilised at 81kg so I guess that is a good thing. I plan on testing all the numbers again monthly and see how they are going.


I'm bottom end of Cat3 for 5 min and FTP, but 'untrained' for 5 sec and 1 minute. My 5 minute is a bit better than my FTP, but I think that's dueto a lack of training for the last year, I'm down ~ 30W at the moment. I can hang with the fast guys, I just can't accelerate.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Sun May 13, 2012 12:57 pm

mikesbytes wrote:How tall are you?

178cm

@Foo you read my mind.

Twizzle I am finding a higher FTP and 5minutes to be much more advantageous to me as getting to the end of the race not already on the limit helps a lot as far ability to get in the right spot and sprint.

I raced again today out at west head. Despite my mate baiting me that I am a burgular I stuck to my guns and raced C grade, I got dropped at the end last time so jumping straight up to B and getting dropped didnt sound like a good day to me. From the start it was FREEZING. I was standing on the start line shivering. It took me a good 5-10min to get just a little warm and my vest stayed on for almost 3/4s of the race. We started out fairly slow (I think kindly letting everyone warm up a little) then slowly got a little and a little faster till about half way through the second lap when the breaks seemed to go on. When the pace was up a bit more I did not feel all that comfortable and even considered just letting the pack go. It wasnt my HR was high or my legs were gone I just felt really average. However when it eased up I started to feel good. Then up the last hill before the turn around going south the hammer was dropped in a very big way one guy jumped and I jumped on his wheel. We smashed it up the hill and put a bit of a gap into the whole group then after the turn around he smashed it again and towards the top he put about 10m into me but he was spent, on the downhill I caught him pretty easy then just sat on. The group wasnt really coming back so I felt comfortable just sitting in. Very late I put in just a little effort (though I didnt have much left) and came around him to take the win.

Time:1:20min
Speed: 33km/h (doesnt really tell how hard it was, possibly due to the wind)
Power: 215Av / 309NP
Avg HR: 162 (very surprisingly low, felt a lot harder than this)
I had a peak power of over 1300W just to grab the guys wheel when he went up the hill we then proceeded to hold over 700W up there (around 30seconds) then after the turn around another 600ishW up the other side (about 45sec). My favourite number of the day was my 5min NP which was 428W!!!! with an average of 323W.

Very happy with the race, still feeling a bit crook but numbers are good. B grade for me next time out there, I think it will be a rude shock and I am hoping to make it to the end in the bunch.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby toolonglegs » Sun May 13, 2012 4:44 pm

My favourite number of the day was my 5min NP which was 428W!!!! with an average of 323W.

I wouldn't get excited about 323w average :P ... maybe if you held 323w for an hour you could get excited!.
5 minute NP means nothing.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Sun May 13, 2012 5:33 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
My favourite number of the day was my 5min NP which was 428W!!!! with an average of 323W.

I wouldn't get excited about 323w average :P ... maybe if you held 323w for an hour you could get excited!.
5 minute NP means nothing.

Way to burst my bubble :P I thought that might be the case. Either way I havent seen a number like that before.
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Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby toolonglegs » Sun May 13, 2012 5:51 pm

Sorry mate, I remember reading that either Hunter or Coogan didn't want NP included for anything under 20 minutes... And even then it has to be weighed up against Av power considering the situation.
You have a good sprint power Vander... It won't improve much as it isn't very trainable compared to other areas... But if you can improve it 10-15% over a couple of years and get from 81kgs down to 70-72 then you will have a very good sprint.
Be careful though as racing everywhere abd placing will soon get you shoved up to A grade. That's great, but no use have Cav's power in a sprint if you haven't got the FTP to get you there. FTP should always be the number one concern training for the road.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby mikesbytes » Sun May 13, 2012 6:28 pm

70Kg is pretty much as low as you can go at 178cm
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby toolonglegs » Sun May 13, 2012 6:47 pm

foo on patrol wrote:I would be getting the power, fitness and technical side of things right, before trimming the fat from the bacon! :wink:

Foo


Just trim the fat very slowly... easier to do it all at once?. Not that I am following that advice very well :lol: ...my fat is trimming so fast that I need to put the brakes on every so often.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Sun May 13, 2012 7:03 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Sorry mate, I remember reading that either Hunter or Coogan didn't want NP included for anything under 20 minutes... And even then it has to be weighed up against Av power considering the situation.
You have a good sprint power Vander... It won't improve much as it isn't very trainable compared to other areas... But if you can improve it 10-15% over a couple of years and get from 81kgs down to 70-72 then you will have a very good sprint.
Be careful though as racing everywhere abd placing will soon get you shoved up to A grade. That's great, but no use have Cav's power in a sprint if you haven't got the FTP to get you there. FTP should always be the number one concern training for the road.


I agree. This is why my training is built towards improving my FTP as when I am hitting my peak in 4 months I want to be keeping up with those A grade boys and I think I have the power to do pretty well in the sprint a 15% improvement I would be quite happy with. As far as weight loss goes I think fast is easier but I dont think its the best for your.

@mike: I expect that to be getting close to my limit.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby mjd » Sun May 13, 2012 9:23 pm

My 5 min avg over the last 11 months (July 318w) (August 387w) (Sept 333w) (Oct 345w) (Nov 339) (Dec 339w) (Jan 338w) (Feb 335w) (Mar 350w) (April 341w) (May 368w) I'm 71.5 kg to 72.5kg. My pb of 387w was after being well rested & a specified 5 min test. Then all the way to Dec I was doing a lot of fatiguing km's that were pretty pointless. This year I have done less km but still working fairly hard 6 days a week of riding with a couple of easy ones thrown in. Just starting to see some improvement in 20 min & 5 min. My best 60 min over same period is 276w which was last month & 20 min 300w.
The numbers are not that great but at 48 years old & a pretty skinny 180 cm 72kg not to bad. Much room for improvement just starting my 3rd year of riding.
So in saying all that I reckon you will go well beyond 323w for 5 mins in no time.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby rogan » Sun May 13, 2012 9:27 pm

mikesbytes wrote:70Kg is pretty much as low as you can go at 178cm


Dunno about that. When I started out I was 188 cm and 60 kg. I was racing Club A Grade and Open B Grade.

Didn't have the power to go with the top guys when the hammer went down, but on the other hand, I could climb quite well... :D
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby rogan » Sun May 13, 2012 9:31 pm

vander wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:How tall are you?

178cm

@Foo you read my mind.

Twizzle I am finding a higher FTP and 5minutes to be much more advantageous to me as getting to the end of the race not already on the limit helps a lot as far ability to get in the right spot and sprint.

I raced again today out at west head. Despite my mate baiting me that I am a burgular I stuck to my guns and raced C grade, I got dropped at the end last time so jumping straight up to B and getting dropped didnt sound like a good day to me. From the start it was FREEZING. I was standing on the start line shivering. It took me a good 5-10min to get just a little warm and my vest stayed on for almost 3/4s of the race. We started out fairly slow (I think kindly letting everyone warm up a little) then slowly got a little and a little faster till about half way through the second lap when the breaks seemed to go on. When the pace was up a bit more I did not feel all that comfortable and even considered just letting the pack go. It wasnt my HR was high or my legs were gone I just felt really average. However when it eased up I started to feel good. Then up the last hill before the turn around going south the hammer was dropped in a very big way one guy jumped and I jumped on his wheel. We smashed it up the hill and put a bit of a gap into the whole group then after the turn around he smashed it again and towards the top he put about 10m into me but he was spent, on the downhill I caught him pretty easy then just sat on. The group wasnt really coming back so I felt comfortable just sitting in. Very late I put in just a little effort (though I didnt have much left) and came around him to take the win.

Time:1:20min
Speed: 33km/h (doesnt really tell how hard it was, possibly due to the wind)
Power: 215Av / 309NP
Avg HR: 162 (very surprisingly low, felt a lot harder than this)
I had a peak power of over 1300W just to grab the guys wheel when he went up the hill we then proceeded to hold over 700W up there (around 30seconds) then after the turn around another 600ishW up the other side (about 45sec). My favourite number of the day was my 5min NP which was 428W!!!! with an average of 323W.

Very happy with the race, still feeling a bit crook but numbers are good. B grade for me next time out there, I think it will be a rude shock and I am hoping to make it to the end in the bunch.


Nice work vander, by the way. Doesn't matter what grade you ride elsewhere, you're not a burglar at West Head until you've won the grade (or got a couple of seconds and thirds), it's the toughest club racing in town. If you have a decent consistent month of training, you should be fine to hold onto B Grade.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Sun May 13, 2012 10:06 pm

mjd wrote:My 5 min avg over the last 11 months (July 318w) (August 387w) (Sept 333w) (Oct 345w) (Nov 339) (Dec 339w) (Jan 338w) (Feb 335w) (Mar 350w) (April 341w) (May 368w) I'm 71.5 kg to 72.5kg. My pb of 387w was after being well rested & a specified 5 min test. Then all the way to Dec I was doing a lot of fatiguing km's that were pretty pointless. This year I have done less km but still working fairly hard 6 days a week of riding with a couple of easy ones thrown in. Just starting to see some improvement in 20 min & 5 min. My best 60 min over same period is 276w which was last month & 20 min 300w.
The numbers are not that great but at 48 years old & a pretty skinny 180 cm 72kg not to bad. Much room for improvement just starting my 3rd year of riding.
So in saying all that I reckon you will go well beyond 323w for 5 mins in no time.


I have pushed 376W as my max 5min effort and over 350 a few times. It was the NP I was getting excited about but as TLL has pointed out I was wrong in thinking that NP meant anything for that length of time. BTW nice numbers for just over 70 that is strong, I still think you have some room for improvement as your numbers show you are still going up.
Cheers Rogan, that is what I thought, I feel as though its a big step up. Hoping I can have a consistent month now it should do me a world of good. 188cm and 60kg :shock: dont know how that is possible!
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby mikesbytes » Mon May 14, 2012 8:09 am

rogan wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:70Kg is pretty much as low as you can go at 178cm


Dunno about that. When I started out I was 188 cm and 60 kg. I was racing Club A Grade and Open B Grade.

Didn't have the power to go with the top guys when the hammer went down, but on the other hand, I could climb quite well... :D


Yeh that's what happens, once your stripped off all the spare fat. You become either a climber or a sprinter
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby twizzle » Mon May 14, 2012 10:56 am

mikesbytes wrote:
rogan wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:70Kg is pretty much as low as you can go at 178cm


Dunno about that. When I started out I was 188 cm and 60 kg. I was racing Club A Grade and Open B Grade.

Didn't have the power to go with the top guys when the hammer went down, but on the other hand, I could climb quite well... :D


Yeh that's what happens, once your stripped off all the spare fat. You become either a climber or a sprinter


Not in my case, even if I dropped my excess 15Kg, I'll still be a TT specialist.

I'm still stuck with the balance between not-eating-and-falling-asleep vs. needing to earn an income. But after my disastrous January-onwards, I'm going back to base training for the next few months anyway, will start to build up in August. Give it's Autumn and it was -3.9C at 6:30am this morning, even base will be a hard slog.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby JV911 » Mon May 14, 2012 2:24 pm

vander wrote:slow in general race


:shock:

At 40.2km/h average it was 0.4km/h faster that I've ever been around that circuit...so I'd say it was up and down but quick in general :D

Haven't crunched the numbers but a quick look at the graph showed plenty of >1000w efforts out of the 2nd corner. Also achieved a PB lap of 2:01 and 3rd overall for the strava sprint segment while chasing down a break at the 20 min mark. I thought I was going to pop after that but managed to recover. Wasn't positioned well on the last lap and finished about 6th. Very happy with that considering I hadn't raced in approx 6 months.

that young <cough> girl </cough> was impressive!

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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Mon May 14, 2012 6:10 pm

JV911 wrote:
vander wrote:slow in general race


:shock:

At 40.2km/h average it was 0.4km/h faster that I've ever been around that circuit...so I'd say it was up and down but quick in general :D

Haven't crunched the numbers but a quick look at the graph showed plenty of >1000w efforts out of the 2nd corner. Also achieved a PB lap of 2:01 and 3rd overall for the strava sprint segment while chasing down a break at the 20 min mark. I thought I was going to pop after that but managed to recover. Wasn't positioned well on the last lap and finished about 6th. Very happy with that considering I hadn't raced in approx 6 months.

that young <cough> girl </cough> was impressive!

congrats on the wins


Yea, she was in every break but she needs to learn not to speed up when coming past it was a bit annoying. Average speed was pretty good but didnt feel as hard as previous weeks IMO. Yea that corner is about 800+W every time but you get a good rest after punching out of it. I found if your in the top 5-10 you have to punch a lot less than further back. I came past you just after your effort and thought you might be gone also :) you were going backwards pretty quickly, well done to hold on. 6th is very good first race back it wasnt a small field either, compared to last year I think the crits are faster because a lot of people trained hard for B2B, so just holding on for your first race in 6months is awesome.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Thu May 17, 2012 9:35 pm

Got Div 2 at the Hunter crit, should be interesting.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Sun May 20, 2012 6:33 pm

So the Div 2 crit, I thought that it wasnt too tough even though my HR for it was very high (higher than I think my RPE was, possibly still not 100%) it didnt feel to difficult. Not many people really wanted to push the pace. However on a very tight course it was imperative to be up the front. I came to the front a few times and sat there for about a lap as noone would want to pass me. With about 4 or 5 laps to go I had a crack at breaking away just after another guy had come back. I jumped off the front and got about a 50m gap and held it for more than half a lap then flicked my elbow for the guy behind me to come through and he didnt come he said he was on the limit already we lost the gap then it was all over almost before it started. I tried to sit in and recover a bit for the last few laps and it heated up a bit with 2-3 to go and I was working hard to get into a good position. I got there but then it slowed up with a bit more than half a lap to go and 5 people came from behind me straight to the front, I missed the train and all of a sudden I was in about 10th wheel with no way to move up before the final really tight corner. On the corner the guy in front of me showed his lack of skill cornering losing at least 30m I couldnt overtake him on the inside as there was another guy there so decided to jump on the grass and go around. The it was 500m to go I was about 30m off the back of a group of around 6 or 7 I busted my balls to try and get back to them but I lost too much on the corner and so never really contested the sprint would of finished somewhere around 8th extremely pissed off at the terrible cornering skills of many people in the race, not many of them must race tight crits.

Time: 30ish min (Forgot to start the garmin at the start.
Speed: 39.5km/h
HR: 187 avg (Did not feel close to this hard)
Power: 270W Avg (310W NP)

Its a learning experience and I learnt I need to position better towards the end and pay more attention to what is happening around me when it slowed down I should of known people would of come from the back forward and I should of been ready to jump on.

As they were running late I only had a little more than a 30min turn around till the hill climb. In the time I had I just sat in the shade and tried to recouperate. I had done the climb once in the morning as warm up and it was 7.5km of undulating road then a bit over 500m of really steep stuff then about 500m of not so steep stuff. At the start line my plan was to sit below threshold till the base of the climb then try to explode up it. The start went to plan I sat below threshold but maybe I went a little too hard as I sat on 287W (299NP) for the first 7.4km. When I went to explode up the climb I didnt have as much as I wanted but for the next 4min up the climb I average 360W for a measely 13.7km/h that is how steep it was. With about 500m to go the guy that started a min behind me caught me and I tried to up my pace to hold him and held him within about 50m to the finish however with about 200m to go I started to really struggled as my HR hit 196BPM. I ended with a time of 16min 44sec which put me in last position of the 8 U23s but all the rest were Div 1 riders so not that surprising. Would be interesting to see what would happen if I dropped the extra 10kg I am carrying.

On another note I can almost do a bent arm planche now and succeeded to do a muscle up the other day :) .
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby Ross » Tue May 22, 2012 4:22 am

28th Canberra Tour dates are scheduled for 28th, 29th and 30th September.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby rogan » Tue May 22, 2012 11:29 am

Ross wrote:28th Canberra Tour dates are scheduled for 28th, 29th and 30th September.


Probably the best Canberra Tour story I am aware of is the time a mountain biker rocked up and they put him in B Grade. Have a guess who...
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