Maltodextrin

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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby clackers » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:00 am

Trev Campbell wrote:

Just wondering how much you put in ??? The Gatorate poweder is usually about 2 scoops per biddon, Do you replace 1 scoop with maltodextrin or add 2 scoops ontop of the gatorade ????

Thanks


If I think I'll drink a bidon in an hour, I'll put in two level scoops of each, Trev ... about 80g total.

If you're closer to 60kg, you can try one and a half scoops of each.

Repeated sipping through the ride is actually better for you than the spike of a meal or a hit from a can of coke, but of course you can enjoy all these things in the day if you get the amounts right.
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by BNA » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:00 pm

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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby PawPaw » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:00 pm

For moderate to high intensity exercise lasting 1.5-4 hours, Sports Dietitians Australia recommend a carb replacement rate of 1g carb /kg bodywt / hour.
This is considered to be the body's maximum oxidation rate of carbohydrate, so 1g carb replaces the carb being burned. Note that fat is also being burned.

Taking more carb during exercise will result in it being converted to fat for storage, which is an unnecessary burden on metabolic pathways that should be providing energy to muscle.

Therefore, an 80kg athlete would consume a total of 80 grams of carb per hour.
Most electrolyte drinks are a 6%-8% solution of carb, and if you drink a large bidon per hour say 750 mls, that's 750 mls * 0.06 = 45 grams of carb in the sports drink.

So you'd add 35 grams of maltodextrin per 750 ml bidon to get your 80g, which will provide 320 Cals per hour.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby Bentnose » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:56 am

According to my Hi-5 Energy source carbohydrates can only be absorbed into the bloostream at a rate of 60g and hour unless you use the Energysource fructose mix which allows 90g an hour.

As far as I remember, provided glycogen stores are full, low to medium intensity excercise up to 1.5 hours should okay without energy drinks after that .5g per kg of body weight per hour. High intensity excercise, eg. racing, 1g per kg of body weight. Recovery is to be 2g per Kg of body weight per hour raced. For 1.5 hours after excercise the body can absorb twice as much carbohydrate into the bloodstream.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby Addictr3 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:06 am

Bentnose wrote:According to my Hi-5 Energy source carbohydrates can only be absorbed into the bloostream at a rate of 60g and hour unless you use the Energysource fructose mix which allows 90g an hour.

As far as I remember, provided glycogen stores are full, low to medium intensity excercise up to 1.5 hours should okay without energy drinks after that .5g per kg of body weight per hour. High intensity excercise, eg. racing, 1g per kg of body weight. Recovery is to be 2g per Kg of body weight per hour raced. For 1.5 hours after excercise the body can absorb twice as much carbohydrate into the bloodstream.


• At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects.





References

Melanson EL, et al. Resistance and aerobic exercise have similar effects on 24-h nutrient oxidation.. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Nov;34(11):1793-800.
Ahlborg, G., and P. Felig. Influence of glucose ingestion on fuel-hormone response during prolonged exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 1976;41:683-688.
De Glisezinski I, et al. Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on adipose tissue lipolysis during long-lasting exercise in trained men. J Appl Physiol. 1998 May;84(5):1627-32.
Coyle EF, et al. Fatty acid oxidation is directly regulated by carbohydrate metabolism during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1997 Aug;273(2 Pt 1):E268-75.
Civitarese AE, et al. Glucose ingestion during exercise blunts exercise-induced gene expression of skeletal muscle fat oxidative genes. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Dec;289(6):E1023-9.
Wallis GA, et al. Metabolic response to carbohydrate ingestion during exercise in males and females. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Apr;290(4):E708-15.
Coyle, et al. Muscle glycogen utilization during prolonged strenuous exercise when fed carbohydrate. J. Appl. Physiol. 1986;6:165-172.
Coyle, et al.. Carbohydrates during prolonged strenuous exercise can delay fatigue. J. Appl. Physiol. 59: 429-433, 1983.
Horowitz JF, et al. Substrate metabolism when subjects are fed carbohydrate during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1999 May;276(5 Pt 1):E828-35.
Febbraio MA, et al. Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and exercise performance. J Appl Physiol. 2000 Dec;89(6):2220-6.
If you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it well enough.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby clackers » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:27 am

PawPaw wrote:
Most electrolyte drinks are a 6%-8% solution of carb, and if you drink a large bidon per hour say 750 mls, that's 750 mls * 0.06 = 45 grams of carb in the sports drink.

So you'd add 35 grams of maltodextrin per 750 ml bidon to get your 80g, which will provide 320 Cals per hour.


Quite right, PawPaw ... you'll notice Trevor wasn't talking about pre-mixed sports drinks, though, he uses the powder so he gets to control its concentration (and save his hard-earned).
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby PawPaw » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:36 pm

clackers wrote:Quite right, PawPaw ... you'll notice Trevor wasn't talking about pre-mixed sports drinks, though, he uses the powder so he gets to control its concentration (and save his hard-earned).


yup, I haven't got an issue with what you recommended. 40g of each fits close enough with what I understand.
I presume you mean he saves money because maltodextrin is cheaper than Gatorade powder.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby clackers » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 am

Yeah, the lucre's saved twice - maltodextrin instead of gel, powdered sports drink instead of the armed robbery of buying a bottle on the road at 7-11 prices.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby snark » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:44 pm

PawPaw wrote:Most electrolyte drinks are a 6%-8% solution of carb ...


I can't find a reference off hand, but I recall reading that higher concentrations of carbs (greater than 8%) are harder to digest.

I use a mix of Gatorade powder and Maltodextrin. The recommended Gatorade dose is 3 scoops in 750ml, I use 2 scoops of Maltodextrin and 1 scoop of Gatorade for taste. I also throw a bit of salt and "no salt" (see here for the original - I've switched to adding Gatorade as it tastes far better :)).

Cheers,
Simon.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby PawPaw » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:39 pm

snark wrote:
PawPaw wrote:Most electrolyte drinks are a 6%-8% solution of carb ...


I can't find a reference off hand, but I recall reading that higher concentrations of carbs (greater than 8%) are harder to digest.

Cheers,
Simon.


here's one source.
http://www.sportsdietitians.com.au/resources/upload/file/Sports%20Drinks%20Aug10.pdf

and my latest electrolyte formula contains calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate, which are both lost in signficant quantities via sweat.


The following makes up 100 litres of final electrolyte drink and the four ingredients are commonly available at Australian supermarkets:

- 170 grams of any table or sea salt (NaCl)
- 95 grams of "diet rite" brand Light Salt (mixture of NaCl and KCl)
- 24 grams = 20 pulverized Rennie antacid tablets (680mg CaCO3, 80mg MgCO3 per tablet)

- Cottee's cordial, either sugared or not. Other cordials can be used. Just make sure the bottle (1 or 2 litre) makes up 10 litres of final drink. Most do.

Method:
- pulverize the rennie tablets with mortar and pestle
- if using sea salt, blend in a blender until finer
- add the three powders to make up ~290 grams.
- add extras like maltodextrin, BCAAs, alpha alanine, caffeine
- mix well and store in freezer.
- for each bottle of cordial concentrate (1 or 2 litre), add 29 grams of mixture (EDIT: PLUS 1/10th of the weight of the added extras)
- when making up bottles for the bike, shake cordial bottle well, then add to water bottles as 1 part cordial mix to 9 parts water.

without amino acids and caffeine, cost is around $0.45 a litre.
Last edited by PawPaw on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby clackers » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:34 pm

Nice tips, PawPaw ... you're quite the alchemist!
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby benam80 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:11 pm

Nice mix PawPaw may have to look at making a concoction along those lines :)
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby jules21 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:37 pm

munga wrote:don't they cut speed with that stuff?

what do you think he wants it for? :D
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby Mark Kelly » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:57 pm

notwal wrote:Fuel. It's starch - relatively low GI sugar. I put it in my biddens for rides over 50 km along with other stuff.


This is simply untrue. Maltodextrin has a GI of approximately 105, thus it has amongst the highest GI of any food.

BTW maltodextrin isn't starch either. Starch has very long chains and many branches. Maltodextrin has shortish (3 - 15 unit) chains with few or no branches (a 3 unit chain logically cannot be branched)
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby clackers » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:03 pm

The point is, Mark,

Sucrose > maltodextrin > starch > fats.

Each gram of tasteless maltodextrin consumed means one less gram of sickly sweet sugar.
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Maltodextrin

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:05 pm

What about the 4-10 mg per kilo of body weight in caffeine :-) .
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby PawPaw » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:36 pm

Warning regarding caffeine use :

It is extremely important to get the caffeine portion right.
The lethal dose of caffeine for humans is estimated at 150mg per kg of bodyweight.

i.e.
bodyweight (kg), lethal dose (mg), lethal dose (teaspoons)
50, 7500, 1.50
75, 11250, 2.25
100, 15000, 3.00

Death is usually triggered by caffeine's action on the nervous system. It causes ventricular fibrillation.
Susceptible individuals with pre-existing or a family history of cardiovascular anomalies or morbidity may be adversely effected by
a lower dose. It is not advisable to take caffeine in gels if you are sensitive to caffeine from any other source (coffee, tea, etc)

Comparative concentrations of caffeine
Espresso Coffee 100-150 mg per shot
Caffeinated soft drink 40 mg per 375 mls
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:41 pm

Ummm...150mg per kilo... thats 135 NoDoz tablets (for me) :shock: .
I am a 4mg per kilo type of guy ( 3 or 4 100 mg tablets ) ... don't think there is much chance of overdose :lol: .
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby trailgumby » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:36 pm

I don't think you really need a lot of caffeine. I note that Endura gels have only 8mg each. I don't use them often due to cost, but the impact is amazing. The 30mg in High5 gels doesn't do a whole lot extra, and I find I can't consume them continuously on a traingin ride, I have to mix them with 2 non-caffeinated to 1 or they start to get unpleasant and I stop taking them on.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:44 pm

8mg would have zero effect on anything... you must be very sensitive if you notice such a small amount. Haven't researched in a while as I know what works for me... but have seen quoted 4 to 10 mg per kilo of body weight... 10mg a kilo seems a lot to me but it obviously works for some... I stick to the lower end of the scale.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby trailgumby » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:00 pm

Perhaps I am ... it's like lighting the blue touch paper. In a minute or two I'm off, the fatigue vanishes and I feel no pain. :lol: Well, for awhile at at least. Then it's probably time for another gel. :wink:

A double-teaspoon shot of instant coffee at the start of the ride is a guaranteed 7% improvement over any set distance I can cover under an hour.

I had a bottle of V before the start of one particular 50km race. If it hadn't been for the dust making vision impossible, I'd have been able to stay on the back of the lead bunch for probably the first 10km instead of leading the train for the next lot. :lol:

Now if I could just stop doing stupid things to hurt myself that force me into time off the bike :oops:
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby PawPaw » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:55 pm

I must admit I've never done more than a double shot of coffee within 10 minutes of race start.
That's about 300 mg. If I weighed 77kg, that's almost 4mg/kg bodyweight.
Two double shot mugs within 2 hours gets me twitchy.
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Maltodextrin

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:49 pm

Caffeine should be finished at least 1 hour before an event... Otherwise your going to want to pee ( or worse ) on the start line... I don't think it has as much affect if you drink a lot of coffee but if you abstain for a day or two before an event then there are definitely gains to be had.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby PawPaw » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:28 am

TLL, I know a lot of studies have done the 3-9g/kg bwt 60 mins before start, but there's also been a number that recommend taking after your warm up, and continuing dosing during events, as often as every 15 minutes. I presume this is why Endura put 8mg in one gel.
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Maltodextrin

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:45 am

Yes my drink mix has caffeine in it... But the big hit is taken in the time leading up to the event. My drink mix comes in 3 parts... The before part is finished at least an hour before the event... Then you drink the "during" in the hour before and during the event.
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Re: Maltodextrin

Postby whichway » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:32 am

Top thread

Is there any way to tell whether the Maltodextrin I buy at the brew shop is corn starch or a longer chain version or do I need a drug lab to do that? :P

It's very cheap - $4 per kg if I remember correctly.
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