Armstrong formally charged by USADA
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Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby doggatas » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:50 am
Included this:
The Washington Post reported on a copy of a 15-page letter sent to Lance Armstrong by USADA on Tuesday. In it, the agency alleged that some of Armstrong's blood samples from 2009 and 2010 were "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby hosko » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:03 am
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby The 2nd Womble » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:10 am
Huge fan of booted RGers who just can't help themselves
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby Sydguy » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:54 am
Charges leveled based on hearsay and not test results are pretty weak and refelct poorly on those leveling the charges.
Awesome lose lose situation!
JM
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby bomber » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:08 am
After all this time I am done caring what the outcome is but I don't think this should be fobbed off as a vendetta against 'Lance'
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby gdt » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:09 am
That will depend what “fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions” turns out to be actually meaning. But it's not a strong statement.Sydguy wrote:Lance never failed a drug test
USADA say they have witnesses, not hearsay (ie, the witness saw the activity, not that the witnesses were told about the activity). If those witnesses hold up then USADA don't need test results. Again, we'll see.Charges leveled based on hearsay
USADA's arguments about their exceeding of their statute of limitations seems weak, and if Armstrong's lawyers win on that point we may never get to the substance of the allegations.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby familyguy » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:20 am
This is going to be a real legal test for the ICU/WADA/whoever gets on board. Backdating tests nearly 10 years?
Jim
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby greyhoundtom » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:41 am
The destruction of a hero’s reputation, and in the process the destruction of an organisation that has done a huge amount of good for cancer sufferers.
...........and if anyone believes that the pro circuit is now squeaky clean has their head up their backside.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby Scarfy96 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:58 am
+1greyhoundtom wrote:A vendetta that has cost and is still costing a huge amount of money, and to what end?
The destruction of a hero’s reputation, and in the process the destruction of an organisation that has done a huge amount of good for cancer sufferers.
...........and if anyone believes that the pro circuit is now squeaky clean has their head up their backside.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby familyguy » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:04 am
I don't quite get the Lance hero worship thing (not directed at above statements, just my personal view). I found the article about Live Strong and their actual monetary funding eye-opening. Ask the layman if live Strong fund cancer research and I'm sure they'll say 'yes'. They've raised awareness through the roof, however, and that can only be positive. This wont stop Live Strong, I very much doubt that.greyhoundtom wrote:A vendetta that has cost and is still costing a huge amount of money, and to what end?
The destruction of a hero’s reputation, and in the process the destruction of an organisation that has done a huge amount of good for cancer sufferers.
...........and if anyone believes that the pro circuit is now squeaky clean has their head up their backside.
To me, when every guy he beat says "I was doping" and his ex-teammates came out and said "we saw him do it, we all did it", I'm going to arrive at my own conclusion, as flawed as it may be. I do believe there's an element of his physical prowess that is a level above, and maybe his level of assistance wasnt as great as the others. I'm not going to argue with the die-hard Lance fans on this, we believe what we believe. A comment on a facebook post regarding George Hincapie's retirement was littered with posts from people saying "he testified against Lance, therefore I hate George". Nobody needs that kind of fan.
However, I do think it has now turned into a witch hunt. Interesting to see that he's winning high-level triathlons, presumably being tested, and nothing is showing up.
Jim
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby The 2nd Womble » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:09 am
Huge fan of booted RGers who just can't help themselves
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby norbs » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:15 am
Funny, just last week he was saying he wouldn't be fighting any more doping charges, now he has come out swinging.
As for the LanceStrong foundation. They may have done plenty of good, but by christ they have lined some pockets in the process.
It is funny, there are people on Twitter and other forums that have been extremely vocal about getting Contador (and other names that don't need to be repeated) and yet now they are saying Lance is a champion who should be left alone!
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby Mulger bill » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:43 am
London Boy 29/12/2011
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby trailgumby » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:47 am
Once they have taken a view that they think you did it (whatever "it" is) it becomes all about how to "get" you.
This is exactly how the NSW police talk, it is how they think, it is how they work. Having been a witness and victim in a criminal case, and having a senior detective for a neighbour, I have some familiarity.
It's like they have a frame bolted to the front of their heads, through which they view the world. It has crosshairs on it. Once you fit inside the frame, their aim to get you in the crosshairs. I would suggest that all investigative and prosecutorial agencies work more-or-less the same way, worldwide.
In view of this momentum that these agencies get, I'm glad we have a presumption of innocence and a beyond reasonable doubt onus of proof for guilt here in Australia for criminal cases.
The problem with the WADA and USADA is that the onus shifts to the accused. Reading through the Contador decision, there was a view that he probably didn't administer any Clenbuterol to himself, that it came via contaminated supplements.
However, because he didn't *prove* that, he got a 2-year ban. So most people think he doped. The fine factual distinction is lost.
So I can understand Lance getting angry. Look at this weeks headlines: after how many years, have the Chamberlains finally been conclusively declared innocent and the shadow on their reputations removed? And at what cost? And that was with an onus of proof supposedly beyond reasonable doubt.
On the other hand, if he is guilty, then while his fundraising efforts and legacy will suffer perhaps fatally it will have overwhelmingly been self-inflicted.
It all depends on what the real truth is. Will we find that out? I doubt it.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby g-boaf » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:06 am
If there is substance to these allegations, then lets let it go through. But until then, it just gets tiring listening to this same old thing over-and-over again. It has the appearance of a vendetta, because it has been over-and-over again, the Floyd Landis accusations, etc.greyhoundtom wrote:A vendetta that has cost and is still costing a huge amount of money, and to what end?
The destruction of a hero’s reputation, and in the process the destruction of an organisation that has done a huge amount of good for cancer sufferers.
...........and if anyone believes that the pro circuit is now squeaky clean has their head up their backside.
What this does of course do is make everyone guilty by association, even those who are clean. And for the rest of us, we won't just by lycra clad loonies who drive motorists mad, we'll now be doped-up lycra-clad-loonies too. It hurts the reputation of the sport as a whole.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby __PG__ » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:37 am
You need backtesting because often it takes the doctors who are a screening for doping about 10 years to catch up with the doctors who are doing the doping. If you look at the history of gold medal winners in the US athletics teams, there seems to be a definite pattern.familyguy wrote: This is going to be a real legal test for the ICU/WADA/whoever gets on board. Backdating tests nearly 10 years?
Jim
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby Sydguy » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:43 am
There has been so much mud flung up in the air, a lot will stick regardless of the outcome.
I'm no fan boy of LA, I fell into the cycling addiction after he retired.
It would of been nice to think of him as a cycling prodigy - alas that is not to be, too much doubt in the equation now.
JM
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby __PG__ » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:46 am
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby AUbicycles » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:49 am
Can't say I can voice an opinion on this because I don't really know the answer - I have heard extremely valid arguments from both sides over many years and as we know in the world of doping, even so called 'conclusive' evidence can be challenged and doubt raise - both sides throwing arguments and counter arguments in a messy fight - so best if I stay out of it.
So onto the TDF titles - if it went as far as a conviction (because it is 'opening formal action' at this stage) can they really take all the titles away?
What about John Bruyneel who is also accused, what happens to him?
Useful reading, the (PDF) letter with the actual charges against Lance Armstrong.
--
Hope it doesn't impact on LiveStrong too much, regardless of the personality it has been built upon, it is still a valid cause and no doubt has propelled other cycling related charity causes worldwide.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby gdt » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:17 pm
Well that's certainly the line put out by Armstrong's people this morning, but "you say vendetta, I say long-running complex investigation". USADA aren't above spin either, using Armstrong's lack of meeting with USADA to blacken his name, whereas the likelihood is that his lawyers were simply being conservative, as lawyers are wont to be.g-boaf wrote:It has the appearance of a vendetta, because it has been over-and-over again
I find the most worrying aspect of this the statute of limitations. It should be possible to test someone's blood in twenty years time and say "hey, they cheated".
It does matter to me that the peleton aren't doped to the eyeballs, simply because that does affect the atitude of drivers towards me. It's also important that the peleton doesn't dope because that means that amateurs don't dope. And there are enough drugged up people who choose a remote corner of my workplace to die in without adding cyclists to that collection.
I am increasingly beyond caring. I don't ride my bike because I saw Mr Armstrong race. Even where I do care, is all this fuss proportionate to a bike rider cheating in a race?
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby rkelsen » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:33 pm
Call me naive or stupid or too honest, but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I were to win any sort of event by doping.the agency alleged that some of Armstrong's blood samples from 2009 and 2010 were "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."
How can drug cheats look their kids in the eye with a straight face? What sort of lesson is this for them? What sort of message does this send to the up-and-comers?
The arguments about a vendetta seem to completely miss the point. Where there is smoke, there is fire. You can argue about legalities and civil liberties all you want. A cheat is a cheat and they need to be exposed as such. The fact that the science takes years/decades to catch up shouldn't matter. Nor should the person's social standing.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby rustychisel » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:40 pm
Really? Do you still believe Lindy Chamberlain murdered her own daughter in a satanic ritual?rkelsen wrote:After all of these years, I still find it disappointing to hear stuff like this:
[and then you wrote] Where there is smoke, there is fire.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby rkelsen » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:48 pm
Dunno what that has to do with the price of fish, but since you asked: Regardless of the legal outcome, we'll never know the whole truth. There are reasons that this whole thing has dragged on for 32 years.rustychisel wrote:Really? Do you still believe Lindy Chamberlain murdered her own daughter in a satanic ritual?
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby yarravalleyplodder » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:52 pm
IF you rely on the testimony of Floyd Landers, who is an admitted cheat and liar for this I ask, if he was being guided and supplied by Lance how did he get caught and Lance not. Is he suggesting that Lance was using better gear than himself.
I cant help but think people want LA as a notch on the belt and see his conviction as the biggest fish in the pond.
I hope he is clean, at this stage I choose to believe he is clean but how many tests must a person submit to before he is left alone. Is it now he is starting to excel in another endurance sport they wish to attack. Surely if he has been doping for over a decade or so wouldn't their be physical signs, I mean it killed Flo-Jo
as someone else posted, its a lose lose situation
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA
Postby jules21 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:53 pm
after having read a lot of evidence on both Contador and Lance, i'm convinced they both doped.norbs wrote:It is funny, there are people on Twitter and other forums that have been extremely vocal about getting Contador (and other names that don't need to be repeated) and yet now they are saying Lance is a champion who should be left alone!
however, i have a lot more sympathy for Lance than Dertie. the simple reason is, Lance beat other dopers while he himself was doped. he broke the rules, but he wasn't "cheating" - in my book at least.
OTOH, Dertie is a cheat. he has sought to beat riders who there is far more reason to believe are clean, by taking drugs. that is a far more heinous crime.
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