M7 Safety Alert Thread

[TimW]

An enforceable 30 km/h speed limit on the M7 path? Apparently it's coming...

and your source is???

[rogan]

An enforceable 30 km/h speed limit on the M7 path? Apparently it's coming...

and your source is???

This thread, see page 3.

http://www.sydneycyclist.com/forum/topi ... we-know-it

[TimW]

Thanks,Tim

[Sinny]

I have heard from a relative who works at the M7 that there have been a few accidents involving either cyclists or cyclist v pedestrian, maybe they are taking steps to cover their backsides to avoid any attempt at civil action against Westlink M7. On occasions when I have been out there I have seen some cyclists especially those in packs ride at considerable speed and in some cases cut corners leaving on comming cyclists/pedestrians no where to go.
Also could be an attempt to hit the idiots that get on the shared path riding trail bikes, with an extra fine.

[wombatK]

I have heard from a relative who works at the M7 that there have been a few accidents involving either cyclists or cyclist v pedestrian, maybe they are taking steps to cover their backsides to avoid any attempt at civil action against Westlink M7.

There was a similar line used to justify the proposal to put speed bumps in Centennial Park. Thankfully, cycling groups in the eastern suburbs were well organised and knocked it out.

Pretty sure there's been more than a few accidents on the M7 motor vehicle lanes, but there hasn't been any reduction of the speed limits or proposals for traffic calming measures taken.

So why buy the argument for the cycleway ?

[rudeboy]

http://www.westlinkm7.com.au/news-detai ... ed-Path-35

Wed, Jul 11th, 2012
New signage to be installed along the Westlink M7 Shared Path

Westlink M7 has been looking at ways to raise awareness of and encourage safer behaviours on the Westlink M7 Shared Path. This is one of the reasons we have been looking at installing signage. Another reason is to assist users by providing location information which can assist in users meeting up with others and finding nearby facilities.

Speaking to a number of people about the signage has been most interesting as it has highlighted that there may be a widespread misunderstanding or lack of awareness that the shared path is a ‘road related area' (as defined in the Road Transport (Safety and Traffic Management) Act 1999 No 20) and road rules do apply to all users and can be policed on the shared path. A lot of the safety tips in the shared path brochure and sign are a reminder of some of the road rules eg cyclists must wear a helmet, give way to pedestrians and everyone should keep to the left.

In terms of speed, we want to encourage cyclists to ride to the conditions and to raise users' awareness that the designed maximum speed of the shared path is 30 kph.

To assist with our discussions about speed, we had some readings taken on the shared path recently that recorded an average speed of 30 kph and it was agreed with RMS and the safety expert that 30 kph is a reasonable maximum speed generally and inclusion of this in the entry signs is appropriate to raise awareness and discourage excessive speed. Records also show that some users are riding well above this speed and riders may not be aware that 30 kph is the designed maximum speed.

The intention is to encourage safety and awareness. Most users do ride to conditions and are safety conscious and consider others. Nevertheless, there have been a few incidents on the shared path where excessive speed may have been a contributing factor.

The Police can certainly enforce the road rules along the shared path and do so as appropriate and at their discretion. At this stage we are aiming to raise awareness and discourage excessive speed. We may take further action in the future if evidence suggests that excessive speeding on the shared path is becoming a growing issue.

[gururug]

In terms of speed, we want to encourage cyclists to ride to the conditions - Agreed
Raise users' awareness that the designed maximum speed of the shared path is 30 kph - Nonsense
An average speed of 30 kph - Average
Records also show that some users are riding well above this speed - perhaps to the conditions?
Riders may not be aware that 30 kph is the designed maximum speed - Nonsense, it is a path next to a road. You can define a recommended safe speed but there is no way it was "Designed" with a maximum speed in mind.
The intention is to encourage safety and awareness - Great
Most users do ride to conditions and are safety conscious and consider others - Define most ( 97%? )
Nevertheless, there have been a few incidents on the shared path where excessive speed may have been a contributing factor - May?
The Police can certainly enforce the road rules along the shared path and do so as appropriate and at their discretion - Good, are the Police targeting speeding? or unsafe riding?


No doubt there have been and will be incidents. Policing a maximum speed is not the most effective, way to assist safety for the path. Here is an idea for you M7, ban two abreast while passing or cornering, have a 10km/h+/- passing recommendation, paint danger "collision zones" path orange.

When negatives arise you've got to look at the positives too. Cyclists account for a great deal of walker/jogger safety. We pass many joggers/pedestrians and use the path at all hours. More cyclists mean the path is made safer and indeed not more risky for pedestrians.

Let common sense and practicality prevail. You can put your 30 signs up, I understand. Just don't think this will provide any sort of protection other than legal.

[biker jk]

Can we make a FOI request for the cycling accident data Westlink has obtained? I would be keen to know how many accidents there have been and the circumstances. I suspect it's really more to do with some pedestrians complaining about cyclists going too fast. Maybe Westlink read the thread on Tuesday night racing on the M7 cycle path and needed to cover themselves legally?

[stickgc]

I don't think it will really be a problem. It sounds more like "guidelines" than rules, and I'm sure the police have better things to do than book cyclists for speeding. Remember, during the crackdown at Pyrmont recently police were targeting helmets and dangerous riding, not speeding.

I agree that a few signs at the more "dangerous" sections might be a good idea too.

[Strawburger]

Raise users' awareness that the designed maximum speed of the shared path is 30 kph - Nonsense

30km/hr designed speed limit may well be right. Generally when a path like this is designed, the designer would have based it on a 30km/hr design speed (generally this would be the maximum design speed, specifications usually go down from 30km/hr, not up). From riding the path a few times there are quite a few areas where the corners are sharp and sight distance to oncoming traffic (in this case cyclists & pedestrians) is limited.

To get an idea on what sight distance and minimum curve radii is needed for 30km/hr, design parameters for speeds shown thus:

Design speed (km/h) Minimum radius (metres)
20 10
30 25
40 50
50 94
Note: Based on zero superelevation and friction factors of 0.31, 0.28, 0.25 and 0.21 for speeds of 20, 30, 40 and 50 km/h respectively

As for the clear sight distance, the graphs indicate a length of 70-80m (sorry cut and paste doesn't work too well with graphs!). So, you are looking at 80m to oncoming cyclists without obstruction (trees, pylons, walls, rails etc).

With those two things stated, it would be hard to prove you can achieve 30km/hr on the lead-up to most of the underpasses going both ways, let alone 40 or 50km/hr. Granted, most of the areas on the path can be ridden at a much higher speed and posting 30km/hr speed limit will ruin it for the cyclists who can maintain 30+km/hr (especially as it is the only car free 40km road/path without a stoplight or stop sign in Sydney).

However, as stickgc says, will they police this or are they diverting the risk to the cyclist (if an accident occurs)?

[zozza]

Maybe the nice M7C people should also do something about the Peds who insist on walking with dogs off their leads?
who I believe are the biggest danger on the path

Perhaps an off the lead area along the Breakdown shoulder lane?

[Sinny]

I think there seems to be a bit of confusion with some people as to what the M7 'path' is, some refer to it as 'bikepath' or 'cycleway'. It is neither it is a 'Shared Path', so believe it or not pedestrians are allowed on it, Mum and Dad with little Johnny and Jenny are also allowed to use it to go bike riding or walking as a family, and all with the expectation that they will not be cleaned up by a cyclist going 'too' fast or not watching where they were riding. I have seen and nearly been cleaned up by other cyclists riding with their head down and cutting corners a little too fine or have come up from behind me and have had to swerve at the last minute as they hadn't seen me, and that was on a straight stretch. A mate and his wife were out for a ride and had to stop and hug the railing on a narrow bridge because of a large group of cyclists who had spread across almost the entire path.
From what my relative at the M7 has told me there have been a few nasty accidents on the shared path involving bike v bike, single riders or cyclist v pedestrian, and that's just the ones they are told about as some may go unreported.

[rudeboy]

I think there seems to be a bit of confusion with some people as to what the M7 'path' is, some refer to it as 'bikepath' or 'cycleway'. It is neither it is a 'Shared Path', so believe it or not pedestrians are allowed on it, Mum and Dad with little Johnny and Jenny are also allowed to use it to go bike riding or walking as a family, and all with the expectation that they will not be cleaned up by a cyclist going 'too' fast or not watching where they were riding. I have seen and nearly been cleaned up by other cyclists riding with their head down and cutting corners a little too fine or have come up from behind me and have had to swerve at the last minute as they hadn't seen me, and that was on a straight stretch. A mate and his wife were out for a ride and had to stop and hug the railing on a narrow bridge because of a large group of cyclists who had spread across almost the entire path.
From what my relative at the M7 has told me there have been a few nasty accidents on the shared path involving bike v bike, single riders or cyclist v pedestrian, and that's just the ones they are told about as some may go unreported.

most of the problems you have noted will not change with a "speed limit" set at 30km/hr.

[westab]

Sinny
Yes it is a shared path and I don't think the issue is the speed of some cyclists but the care of the odd few pathway users- I am not saying this as a lone cyclist who is commuting at above 30km/h sometimes but as a father who rides with my family at 15km/h with kids down to the age of 7 y.o.
Most of the people I see riding (even above 30kph) do so very safely especially around my kids. Why should we all be penalised for the acts of a few who ride like fruit loops when above said cyclists will most likely not change their ways.

I don't know what the answer is but watching my speedo down every hill or on every flat will probably not help.

[biker jk]

Sinny
Yes it is a shared path and I don't think the issue is the speed of some cyclists but the care of the odd few pathway users- I am not saying this as a lone cyclist who is commuting at above 30km/h sometimes but as a father who rides with my family at 15km/h with kids down to the age of 7 y.o.
Most of the people I see riding (even above 30kph) do so very safely especially around my kids. Why should we all be penalised for the acts of a few who ride like fruit loops when above said cyclists will most likely not change their ways.

I don't know what the answer is but watching my speedo down every hill or on every flat will probably not help.

I agree. The crazies who cut the blind corners through the underpasses are not going to stop doing it because of a 30kmh speed limit. I also don't believe those riding a few abreast and crossing the centre line expecting you to hug the extreme left are going to be dissuaded by a speed limit either. I wonder if they will post large signs telling peds to keep their dogs on leashes?

[Rockford]

Not the M7 but close enough. If you are riding around Nurrangingy, the causeway is closed and if you want to go back and forth you need to use the larger wooden pedestrian bridge. Coming back west it is like ice when you transition from the concrete path onto it, especially after the rains. You won't get any warning it just lets go. (nursing a new third knee as a result)

[Wayfarer]

I've yelled at fools cutting corners because they think they don't have to stay on their side of the white line. Even though there's clear signage on their side telling them to slow down. If i can do it on my triathlon bike (apparently with worse steering), they certainly can do it on their road bikes. If a 30km/h limit is imposed, does that then mean I can fly straight past pedestrians in the same lane, at 30km/h? Surely there are people dying from car crashes and speeding, and these are more of an issue than a couple of fools cutting corners?

Is there anyone on this website who can, or knows of somebody who can corner on the M7 at 30km/h? I sure don't.
Most people can average 30km/h easily on a day, so calculating the amount of people who actually use the cyclepath tells me there probably aren't alot of incidents at all; if you crash into someone at 30km/h, you're in hospital for the rest of the day, probably longer. People ride to their ability, because there's no protection on a bicycle. And people would simply use the breakdown lane next to the M7 if such a ridiculous speed limit was enforced, so covering their ar53s doesn't really compute, since their families will pose why the rider had to train next to 100km/h traffic instead of a once good bike path.

[brasstinman]

Maybe the nice M7C people should also do something about the Peds who insist on walking with dogs off their leads?
who I believe are the biggest danger on the path

Perhaps an off the lead area along the Breakdown shoulder lane?

Here here to this!
I try my absolute best to ride the shared pathways with the mentality that pedestrians have the right of way but it's getting really hard when they don't do the right thing.
I ring my bell several times and they don't hear it even if they don't have ear phones in. I pass pedesdrians slowly and more often than not have to ride on the grass next to the pathway to pass them because they won't walk on the left side of the path.
Don't get me started on the people letting the extra long dog leads out so the dog can run across the other side of the pathway is dangerous.
I have no problems with the M7 management trying to raise awareness on the shared pathway and mum and dad and little johnny out there using it too. It's a shared pathway.

Instead they don't educate people and cyclists on the etiquette of shared pathways and instead just throw up speed limit signs it does nothing to stop incidents from occurring, i.e. unleashed dogs, mum and dad walking across the entire pathway, cyclists from cutting corners and riding 2-3 across.

Do the road rules say a bicycle must have speedo? I thought a bell and at last one working brake was all that was required as a minimum apart from a helmet.
How are you supposed to know your speed limit when you don't have a speedo? I don't have one on my commuter, should I not be allowed to ride the shared paths unless I spend the coin on a speedo?

[wombatK]

How are you supposed to know your speed limit when you don't have a speedo? I don't have one on my commuter, should I not be allowed to ride the shared paths unless I spend the coin on a speedo?

They've been painting markers every 100 metres. So you could count the time it takes you to travel between them, just like the coppers might.

If maths isn't your strong suit, a speedo is not that expensive compared to any other cyclist accessory, bike etc.,.

The speed limit proposal is nonetheless nanny-state rubbish. Haven't seen a skerrick of evidence to suggest it's necessary.

[brasstinman]

I haven't been down the M7 in a long while except the short run from Norwest Blvd through Kings Langley so I haven't seen the 100m markers.
I've been thinking of getting another speedo but haven't been doing any distance riding so havent bothered. Could just use my iPhone I guess until then.

[zozza]

I think the markers may be for ambos and services to correctly identify a location??

On one occasion near Norwest an Ambo went to 3 or 4 different locations before finding the
correct entrance, which they couldn't pass because of the barricades

Pity for the rider whose ankle was at a right angle

[biker jk]

It is kind of strange that Westlink is focussing on a few accidents on the shared path as justification for trying to impose a speed limit when just about every second day we have a truck overturning on the M7 motorway, usually due to dangerous driving (i.e. speeding).

[wombatK]

I think the markers may be for ambos and services to correctly identify a location??

Hadn't thought of that - wonder if the average cycleway user would tumble to that being a good
purpose for them or whether emergency services call takers know to ask callers to find them.

[zozza]

It is kind of strange that Westlink is focussing on a few accidents on the shared path as justification for trying to impose a speed limit when just about every second day we have a truck overturning on the M7 tollway, usually due to dangerous driving (i.e. speeding).

It may be that they get complaints about riders by the pedestrians who use the path,

We should do the same and complain about the pedestrians who do the wrong thing and put us at risk

BTW regarding yesterday's Truck accident, I noticed on the news footage that the truck was similar to the ones in
the last two serious accidents involving Trucks.

[zozza]

whether emergency services call takers know to ask callers to find them.

When I called for the Ambo on that occasion the Emergency operator had no frickin idea how to get to the accident location,
I spoke to the person at least 4 or 5 times but the Ambos and the operator had no clue how to access the path despite
giving them the exact location.