Anyone can become an A grade rider?

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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby mjd » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:31 am

nickobec wrote:I have enjoyed this thread and it has got me inspired, especially by MJD's performances, to reassess my targets.

Background 51years old, 181cm, 79kg but could be 75kg or less, on PDD performance decreasing drugs ( beta blockers - reduces heart rate, but working that to my advantage in races, max HR at beginning of race is 160, after 1 hour max HR is 175 for final sprint) after myocardial infarction and resulting coronary stent. Been riding for a few years for fitness, only started racing at the beginning this road racing season (May). Been riding with a power meter for almost a year, slowly understanding how to use it. It is a heavy training wheelset, so I used it in my E grade races, but not in the hilly handicap or D grade races. My FTP at the moment is just under 3 watts/kg (2.91) 230 watts, was under 190 watts in January.

When I started racing in May, my aims other than survive were:
1. Be competitive - did that 4th, 6th, 4th, 1st, 2nd, 2nd
2. Get promoted to D grade by mid season - done, after 6 races I placed with the D graders in my 1st handicap, so I asked to be promoted
3. Be competitive in D grade by end of season - suffering with winter cold and the like, plus lack of training at moment (usually my morning 40km commute), finishing at back of bunch after putting in suicidal attacks with a couple of kms to go.
4. Get promoted to C grade by middle of next road racing season
5. Be competitive in C grade by end of next season

After last Saturday, where I felt like crap with a cold, I stayed with the bunch on a lumpy course, which was controlled by 3 riders who should be in C grade. We lapped was at a faster pace than the C grade. And I chose to put in a suicidal attack, instead of riding for a top 6 spot. I am now thinking I should be aiming at getting promoted to C during the summer crit series and to B by middle of next road racing season.

Is anybody going to tell me I am a crazy dreamer.

Or should I be emailing Alex, once I clear my usual winter malaise (every year lack of light, less riding and I get a cold that is hard to shake) and build my racing wheel with my new powertap + 50mm carbon rim is on the way from China.


Mate its more than just about raw numbers & learning how to increase them numbers is the part where you need to understand the science of power. Alex certainly knows the power side of things & he told me from the start that there is many ways to skin the numbers cat. I must admit at times I thought I was going around in circles & not making much headway but it is a building process & requires work & patience. I can highly recommend Alex & RST Sport if you want to get the most out of your power training. It is not free but it is well worth it in my eyes. I don't drink, smoke or eat badly so this helps enormously on the bike & saves me enough money per month to have a great coach.
Many a wet cold morning has been had on the bike this winter but it has paid off that's for sure. No point paying my coach & not for-filling my end of the deal.
Dream on & set yourself some achievable goals & they will get ticked off one at a time. One of my goals when I started with Alex was to be competitive in B grade :D
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by BNA » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:28 am

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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby thearthurdog » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:28 am

I'm not going to read his whole thread, but here are my two cents worth...

For the purposes of this comment, I'm talking about Elite A racing in Queensland. I think club A is a pointless conversation as I know of local A grade racing where there is everything from Elite A to Masters C in the same race.

I think the answer is almost YES. If you have an average amount of ability on a bike you can get a coach, get some carbon wheels and pound out 700 km a week and hey presto, you're going to be a 'bunch finisher' in Elite A.

Actually 'racing' Elite A is a different story. There are a few things that are extremely hard to train for, that sets the 'racers' apart from the 'finishers' in Elite A.

Pain tolerance - the ability to hurt, hurt, then hurt some more. I'm not talking about 'wow I've got sore legs'. I'm talking about dangling 20 seconds off the front of the bunch with 8 km to go, with vomit and snot all over you, going cross eyed, cramping, wheezing, being almost delirious but knowing that if that speedo starts to dip under 48kmh you are going to get caught.

Race sense - being able to read a race, pick the right breaks, spots to attack, understanding team racing and being able to conserve energy when you have to.

Competitiveness - ever finished 2nd in a big race? Was it the highlight of your racing life or does it still burn you because you were so close to winning? If it is the second thing for you, then you are doing it right. There is no feeling in the world like going across the line with your arms in the air. I'd trade 100 2nds for one win.

So in summary, it is possible, but I think there are some things you just can't train for.
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby twizzle » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:51 pm

thearthurdog wrote:There is no feeling in the world like going across the line with your arms in the air.

In vets racing, that would be the feeling of being DQ'ed for taking a hand off the bar.

But I know what you mean. :)


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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:55 pm

twizzle wrote:
thearthurdog wrote:There is no feeling in the world like going across the line with your arms in the air.

In vets racing, that would be the feeling of being DQ'ed for taking a hand off the bar.

But I know what you mean. :)


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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby rogan » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:56 am

toolonglegs wrote:
twizzle wrote:
thearthurdog wrote:There is no feeling in the world like going across the line with your arms in the air.

In vets racing, that would be the feeling of being DQ'ed for taking a hand off the bar.

But I know what you mean. :)


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Take the fun out of everything don't they!... stupid rule that no longer effects me :D .


Hardly ever affects most of us!
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby Chris249 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:41 pm

Interesting question.

My first thought is that if a pretty average 49 year old with fewer than six races under their belt, two other sports that have priority, study and kids, cheap gear, no HRM or PM or coach, and "training" consisting of 6km rides to work each day plus a group ride some weeks, can get to the front of B in large Sydney clubs and miss out on getting chucked into A by fractions of a second, then surely anyone can get into club A if they got good gear, good coaching, and concentrated hard on cycling for a few years. :? :D

On the other hand, there are some pretty determined and smart people here who are a long way from A, and the good guys (even old age pensioners) still beat the likes of me out of sight, which underlines the vast chasm between us sort-of-okay club racers and the really good guys....it's all very confusing.

In my other sports, in which technique is often much more important than fitness, I have friends who are keen, committed, passionate, smart but have always been mediocre pack fodder, and some friends who have recently come back from a certain major sporting event in the UK. In some ways it seems that the biggest difference between the ones who are club level and the ones who are Olympic level seem to come down to how open-minded they are about their technique, how readily they take advice, and how keenly they learn from the winners. The top-level competitors appear to be much more open and flexible. The back markers are back markers not because of lack of innate talent, IMHO, because the fail to research success and because they are stuck in their ways and refuse to change their approach, even when they are unable to perform to the level they want to and should be able to.
There are many types of racing cyclists. There is the sprinter, the rouleur, the stagiaire, the danser, the descender.... sadly, I'm a mediocre. :-(

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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby Rider123 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:45 am

I came across this thread on Slowtwitch, 'What FTP can be expected from the average joe?'

Andrew Coggan concluded, with a few assumptions, that an average but sedentary, college-aged male after prolonged/long-term training can achieve a FTP of 3.9W/Kg. All the calculations can be found on page 2 of
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gfo ... st=2830698 .

Now, let's say an average cyclist weighs around 70kg, that would give him a FTP of ~270W.
I'm not an A grade rider so I would have no idea what a FTP of 270W can do in A Grade.
Perhaps someone can chip in here.

Btw, would the equivalent of A grade really be Cat 3 in the US System? So B/C Grade -> Cat 4, D Grade -> Cat 5?
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby vander » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:52 pm

Rider123 wrote:I came across this thread on Slowtwitch, 'What FTP can be expected from the average joe?'

Andrew Coggan concluded, with a few assumptions, that an average but sedentary, college-aged male after prolonged/long-term training can achieve a FTP of 3.9W/Kg. All the calculations can be found on page 2 of
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gfo ... st=2830698 .

Now, let's say an average cyclist weighs around 70kg, that would give him a FTP of ~270W.
I'm not an A grade rider so I would have no idea what a FTP of 270W can do in A Grade.
Perhaps someone can chip in here.

Btw, would the equivalent of A grade really be Cat 3 in the US System? So B/C Grade -> Cat 4, D Grade -> Cat 5?


270W not really enough for A grade. Pure Watts on a flat course I would say you would need about 300W more like 320W threshold to be competitive. However if the person was 80+kg would mean they would be able to keep up on a flat course. However on a hilly course you more likely need 4.5-5w/kg (as I found out). Aus is about 1 behind, A grade = cat 2 (more like 1.5 I think but depends who shows up), B grade = Cat 2.5-3 etc. This depends on who shows up and what the course is like ofcourse. I have done west head RR with about 4w/kg and found going pretty difficult in C grade. Then I have also done B grade races at about 3.5w/kg pretty easy.
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:34 pm

Rider123 wrote:I came across this thread on Slowtwitch, 'What FTP can be expected from the average joe?'

Andrew Coggan concluded, with a few assumptions, that an average but sedentary, college-aged male after prolonged/long-term training can achieve a FTP of 3.9W/Kg. All the calculations can be found on page 2 of
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gfo ... st=2830698 .

viewtopic.php?p=828548#p828548
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby twizzle » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:18 pm

3.7W/Kg for me at the moment, hoping to be 4.2W/Kg by January. Not too shabby for someone who will turn 44 in Jan. (that sounds OLD :( ).
I was at 3.3W/Kg two months ago, still have 5Kg to lose and ~ 25W to regain.

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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby jcjordan » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:56 pm

Rider123 wrote:I

Btw, would the equivalent of A grade really be Cat 3 in the US System? So B/C Grade -> Cat 4, D Grade -> Cat 5?


Cat 1 think top teams of NRS and are being paid tobrace full time

Cat 2 those Gus in the NRS who.are not paided to ride full time

Cat 3 Solid A grader in a big club



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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby vander » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:54 pm

jcjordan wrote:
Rider123 wrote:I

Btw, would the equivalent of A grade really be Cat 3 in the US System? So B/C Grade -> Cat 4, D Grade -> Cat 5?


Cat 1 think top teams of NRS and are being paid tobrace full time

Cat 2 those Gus in the NRS who.are not paided to ride full time

Cat 3 Solid A grader in a big club


I think your underestimating Australia's quality. Anyway I know of people at my club A graders not even racing the NRS jst short of 5W/kg and I know of a NRS rider (not paid full time) a touch over 5W/kg. These are the only 2 guys in A grade that I know of their powers and their weights but both of them are strong. These numbers are Cat 1 almost Domestic Pro. I think you will find its a bit tougher, especially if you ever leave the flats. I learnt my place when I went from the flats to a hilly race almost 30 started 7 finished, only 4 within a min of the winner.
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby Rider123 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:28 pm

vander wrote:
jcjordan wrote:
Rider123 wrote:I

Btw, would the equivalent of A grade really be Cat 3 in the US System? So B/C Grade -> Cat 4, D Grade -> Cat 5?


Cat 1 think top teams of NRS and are being paid tobrace full time

Cat 2 those Gus in the NRS who.are not paided to ride full time

Cat 3 Solid A grader in a big club


I think your underestimating Australia's quality. Anyway I know of people at my club A graders not even racing the NRS jst short of 5W/kg and I know of a NRS rider (not paid full time) a touch over 5W/kg. These are the only 2 guys in A grade that I know of their powers and their weights but both of them are strong. These numbers are Cat 1 almost Domestic Pro. I think you will find its a bit tougher, especially if you ever leave the flats. I learnt my place when I went from the flats to a hilly race almost 30 started 7 finished, only 4 within a min of the winner.


That's interesting. So Australian cycling is quite strong it seems.
Would it be accurate to say that the top guys in the NRS are putting out over 5.5 watt/kg FTP or is that an over-estimation?
Just wondering what the difference between people with 'really good genes' and an average club rider is.
Do they have a high FTP after starting cycling, or do they make substantial gains consistently?
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:52 pm

We have the top level rider on this forum, come on Jono post away... :-) .
Pure watts per kilo only really matter in the mountains or solo events... Your standard Australian club A grade race is pretty flat, good cornering and good wheel sucking with a good sprint power at the finish will have a solid 4.25-4.5 w per kg guy beating a skinny whippet with better Wpkg any day.
But then I look at strava in my area where there are quite a few top level amateurs riding on proper climbs 4 kilometres or more long and you can really see where watts per kg coming to play... Depressing and interesting at the same time!.
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby vander » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:32 pm

Rider123 wrote:
That's interesting. So Australian cycling is quite strong it seems.
Would it be accurate to say that the top guys in the NRS are putting out over 5.5 watt/kg FTP or is that an over-estimation?
Just wondering what the difference between people with 'really good genes' and an average club rider is.
Do they have a high FTP after starting cycling, or do they make substantial gains consistently?


I think Australian cycling is getting stronger and stronger all the time.Would be hard to say but I would say you have to push in excess of 5w/kg for a 20ish min climb at the end of a race to win it. For the Baw Baw Classic using VAM for mark O'Brien you get just short of 5.4 W/kg which puts him at almost 67kg which is probably fair for him. That however is NRS level not A grade.

@TLL I was at about 4w/kg and I could get away with A grade on the flats in sydney though in a strong field I was a bit short of what I needed. However take me to Oakville and I lasted a whole 10min, a long way short of good enough to compete.
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:47 pm

For me to compete in A Grade here I would have to nearly double my race length from 80 km's to 115-140kms ... Drop my weight another 10 kg to about 82 and have close to our 400 w FTP ... And then I would still have to pick and choose the type of course I raced on... that is only to survive, not to win ;-)
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby Strawburger » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:25 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Pure watts per kilo only really matter in the mountains or solo events... Your standard Australian club A grade race is pretty flat, good cornering and good wheel sucking with a good sprint power at the finish will have a solid 4.25-4.5 w per kg guy beating a skinny whippet with better Wpkg any day.


Absolutely! I ride E grade state level & B/C club. i can hold 4.5-4.75w/kg on longer climbs (65kg) but struggle to hold a wheel when i find myself with the a graders (club or state).
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:24 am

Strawburger wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Pure watts per kilo only really matter in the mountains or solo events... Your standard Australian club A grade race is pretty flat, good cornering and good wheel sucking with a good sprint power at the finish will have a solid 4.25-4.5 w per kg guy beating a skinny whippet with better Wpkg any day.


Absolutely! I ride E grade state level & B/C club. i can hold 4.5-4.75w/kg on longer climbs (65kg) but struggle to hold a wheel when i find myself with the a graders (club or state).

Assuming your data correct, I suspect it's not your power that's the problem.
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby Strawburger » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:53 pm

Yes, exactly my point there Alex. Raw numbers won't get you far in A grade. I have a long list if of other things to work on before even thinking of participating with the A graders.
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby Strawburger » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:27 pm

toolonglegs wrote:We have the top level rider on this forum, come on Jono post away... :-) .


Hey TLL, looks like jono's riding the goulburn to sydney this weekend, spotted the start list on cyclingnews. He may be a little delayed in a reply!
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby mjd » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:03 pm

Strawburger wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Pure watts per kilo only really matter in the mountains or solo events... Your standard Australian club A grade race is pretty flat, good cornering and good wheel sucking with a good sprint power at the finish will have a solid 4.25-4.5 w per kg guy beating a skinny whippet with better Wpkg any day.


Absolutely! I ride E grade state level & B/C club. i can hold 4.5-4.75w/kg on longer climbs (65kg) but struggle to hold a wheel when i find myself with the a graders (club or state).


What is a longer climb ? Length & time wise.
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby jules21 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:09 pm

i've been building my base all year (read: not racing) and am ready to give crit racing another go this year. will be fascinating (for me) to see how my form is when i return, i felt like i was gaining form last year but fell off my perch a bit. feeling better again i think.

i think a lot of form is determined by non-cycling factors. i do most of my riding as commuting and while it's convenient, i am often very tired during the week so it's not quality training. i hate sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day, it drives me nuts.
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:14 am

jules21 wrote:i hate sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day, it drives me nuts.

Can you stand up?
Or change jobs if you hate it so much?
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby jules21 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:39 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
jules21 wrote:i hate sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day, it drives me nuts.

Can you stand up?
Or change jobs if you hate it so much?

it's more the sterile office environment. i was built to ride my bike out in the open :)

changing jobs is not practical, no. my career is office-oriented at this point :(
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Re: Anyone can become an A grade rider?

Postby eon » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:38 am

Been following this thread and although i'm confused with all the numbers and stats its been interesting. I have no idea what FTP or VO2 or kw/kg etc etc.
I just monitor my avg speed/HR/cadence, thats about it.

Background - I started cycling in JUN2008.. I was almost 90kg at 170cm tall (i was on the chubby side ). 10km ride was EPIC for me back then, very little endurance fitness. Played a lot of VolleyBall & BasketBall and trained plenty of Plyometrics. decent hops for a shortie. Had no issues getting up to grab a basketball rim at official height. This helped a lot in the CRIT sprints.

Started riding with a good group in this forum TNFPRs about FEB2009. Kept getting dropped at first but slowly worked up the fittness level to hang on and eventually contribute in inflicting some hurt. =)

First CRIT race was SEP2009( D grade )
Last CRIT race was End of 2011( was either Southern Hemisphere or Cervello Cup in A grade - cant remember now )
I've taken a break scince due to lack of time for racing and family commitments.

A lot of things in between and a couple of nice wins, but my training from the beginning have always consisted of: on average 2 (3 if im lucky) rides a week Tuesday night M7 cycleway(85km), Sat &/or Sun (early @stupid oClock : 60-90km).
No structure, just ride hard every ride and regularly hit Gorge & Bobbin on the weekends for hill repeats.

My last race in A I was 20kg lighter, i managed to hold on, to place 7th in an open club event. ( best result to date )
so back to the question -> Anyone can become an A grader ? my experience yes - with little structure to my training. I say little cos i really didnt have any but when I ride, i try to ride hard.

But to be competetive in A ( I'm talking Club level btw )-> to me thats a whole new ball game. Its hard enought to bridge the gap from B to A, but from A to A+ ... we'll i think structured and specific training, discipline and dedication is in need. I say A+ as i notice that usually the rest of A grade are competing for minor placing, as the "A+" riders are just too damn strong.

I plan to get back to CRIT racing OCT2012, and prob would try and understand what these stats n numbers are all about.

I've kept fit throughout my break, but not cycling CRIT fit... I think i might still be able to hold on to B grade club level.
Did more mountain biking and did a few running events this year
- finished City2Surf in 64minutes
- and survived TOUGHMUDDER 2012 on the weekend.

My question if i can tag it to this: Any advice on bridging A -> A+ ?
- will stop running now and start ramping up training on 2 wheels
- going to check out TurboStudio, as i just got a 4 session voucher.
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