A question from a motorist

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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby BillWatson » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:26 pm

Hi All,
Thank You for your comments, However as yet no one has formulated an effective argument against registration. No one has discussed the hypotheticals I proposed in any meaningful manner, the question connected was how were the people supposed to hold the offender to account, and no one has attempted to discuss that, so I can assume that these are situations, should they occur, that would have befitted from registration.
As for the size of the plate, if an old bloke like me can read the brand on a moving bike, and the names on a riders jersey from my window, (I can even read the rego on a fast moving motorbike) then one may assume that a plate could be seen.

Now to KenGS, I have fronted the Magistrates court twice in relation to reporting dangerous drivers to the Police (both time I had video evidence).

From what I can see in this thread, and others in this forum is that cyclist, at least in this community, want to be able to hold motorists and pedestrians to account for their offences, but do not want others to have the same right regarding the cyclist.
There appears to be a distinct double standard regarding obeying the road rules, cyclists (and I will use this term as a very general label and in no way infer that all, or even most are like this) want to be able to pick and choose what rules they follow, (i.e, the comments of Human909 on the “Ninja Day” thread, or by the signature of Mulger bill, who quotes ..”whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011”. The comments of il padrone in this thread and others (and I take some dramatic licence here) believe that drivers and pedestrians should be taken to task for offences against cyclist, but when it is the cyclist at fault, then it is case of sh*t happens. Does this mean that motorcyclist can follow the same guidelines? How about small cars? Can a young person on a small scooter uses the cycle way as it is in their best interest, this is illegal but in the interest of self preservation why not according to some? Ridiculous but I hope you see my point (however if someone was to do this, you could record their plate and report them to police).

As I said earlier, no one has yet to form an effective augment against registration (cost is significant, but not the sole reason to dismiss it). It is just my belief, but if the cycling community wants to be regarded as an equal on the roads (as they should be) then they need to have the same responsibilities as all other road users. This includes following the road rules as any other vehicle should, and being able to be held accountable if they cause offence.
Perception is a powerful thing, and the way the wider community sees you can make all the difference. Lets face it, road cyclist are looked upon very negatively by many other road users, but why do you think this is?
The actions of a the few unfortunately reflect back on the many, (this is taken to the extreme when you look at community attitudes toward the Islamic Faith, and before you jump on me I only say this to high light how the actions of a few can harm the many and has nothing tho do with any form of registration). So if having a bike registration system changes that negative attitude, or re-enforcers the idea in the wider community that cyclists have the same rights as motorists, them why is this a bad thing?
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by BNA » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:27 pm

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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby BillWatson » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:27 pm

Perhaps the scope of the question was too narrow.

So lets widen the parameters and keep it simple and avoid all the details….

Assuming a workable method of registration could be found (let’s assume to everyone’s approval), does this community support, IN PRINCIPLE, the registration of bicycles?

Please if you chose to answer can you provide you reasons? Do not quote a long string of facts or rhetoric other scenarios. Stay on topic and focused, i.e. if you do not support cycle registration because you wish to get way with traffic offences, then please be honest and just say so. But if someone can propose a well structured augment against registration (remember we have removed cost as a variable here) it would be great.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Baldy » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:35 pm

Hello Bill

What do you think about the push to remove the mandatory helmet laws? viewtopic.php?f=53&t=31309&start=4250
I am sure they would appreciate your input in that thread.

So not only are these cyclists not accountable to anyone, they are not willing to take any responsibility for their own safety.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:36 pm

BillWatson wrote:So if having a bike registration system changes that negative attitude, or re-enforcers the idea in the wider community that cyclists have the same rights as motorists, them why is this a bad thing?

a. it won't change attitudes. cyclists are a minority group and vilifying them is just a standard method used by some members of majority groups to reinforce their primacy. i doubt it has much to do with perceived poor behaviour by cyclists - if it did, motorists would be held in as poor or lower regard. they aren't - at least not by other motorists - as it's human nature to overlook your own shortcomings while magnifying those of others.

b. you may be misinterpreting the reasons for cyclists objecting to registration. personally (and admittedly this is unlikely a majority view) i'd be all for GPS enabled trackers so that *all* road users could be tracked by police, where evidence of a serious (or arguably any) offence occurred. i don't see any need for special treatment of cyclists. but cyclists don't want to ride around with a rego plate on their back - it's a stupid suggestion, for (fairly obvious) practical reasons.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby BillWatson » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:36 pm

[quote="AndyTheMan"]Hi Bill

Thanks for coming and asking questions in a respectful way.Like any forum/group, you will get a range of answers here – but don’t take any of it to heart if they are not ‘polite’ – some people can be like that (cyclist or otherwise).


Thank you for very well reasoned post. I think you comments are very valid
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby il padrone » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:38 pm

BillWatson wrote:Assuming a workable method of registration could be found (let’s assume to everyone’s approval), does this community support, IN PRINCIPLE, the registration of bicycles?


No!

Out loud just because it seems you're hard of hearing.

Don't need no reasons. It is you who need to give strong reasons for such a draconian imposition on several million Australian cyclists. And "because motorists have rego" just does not cut it.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby BillWatson » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:41 pm

il padrone wrote:
BillWatson wrote:Assuming a workable method of registration could be found (let’s assume to everyone’s approval), does this community support, IN PRINCIPLE, the registration of bicycles?


No!

Out loud just because it seems you're hard of hearing.

Don't need no reasons. It is you who need to give strong reasons for such a draconian imposition on several million Australian cyclists. And "because motorists have rego" just does not cut it.



Sir, I please forgive me if I am wrong, but I fear that you are part of the 1%.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:49 pm

il padrone wrote:
BillWatson wrote:Assuming a workable method of registration could be found (let’s assume to everyone’s approval), does this community support, IN PRINCIPLE, the registration of bicycles?

No!

Out loud just because it seems you're hard of hearing.

Don't need no reasons. It is you who need to give strong reasons for such a draconian imposition on several million Australian cyclists. And "because motorists have rego" just does not cut it.

IP is correct though. i'm sure the Department of Finance and Deregulation would agree with him too.

someone will be along to relate that to helmet laws in 5..4..3..2...
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby il padrone » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:51 pm

BillWatson wrote:Now to KenGS, I have fronted the Magistrates court twice in relation to reporting dangerous drivers to the Police (both time I had video evidence).

Ah, but video evidence changes the tables considerably. Assuming you have some ID of the driver (from the rego) then police have clear evidence that they may well decide to act upon. Very different to your word against his.... rego or not. And with regard to video of a cyclist, if their face is clear then you can possibly begin to ID them - if the crime is serious enough.

BillWatson wrote:The comments of il padrone in this thread and others (and I take some dramatic licence here) believe that drivers and pedestrians should be taken to task for offences against cyclist, but when it is the cyclist at fault, then it is case of sh*t happens. Does this mean that motorcyclist can follow the same guidelines? How about small cars?

OWWW!! That hurts.

You've twisted my words rather badly. Please don't take them all out of context and try to make me say something I did not :x

I was simply pointing out that there are unfortunately many circumstances where offenders and criminals cannot be dealt with. For various reasons our political/legal system determines that it is not worth pursuing some law-breakers as other priorities over-ride it (eg. civil liberties, funding priorities, technology available, Police resources etc). Or it simply may not be possible.

I made no suggestion that cyclists should be let off while motorists should be prosecuted. None at all!
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:56 pm

BillWatson wrote:Perhaps the scope of the question was too narrow.

So lets widen the parameters and keep it simple and avoid all the details….

Assuming a workable method of registration could be found (let’s assume to everyone’s approval), does this community support, IN PRINCIPLE, the registration of bicycles?

Please if you chose to answer can you provide you reasons? Do not quote a long string of facts or rhetoric other scenarios. Stay on topic and focused, i.e. if you do not support cycle registration because you wish to get way with traffic offences, then please be honest and just say so. But if someone can propose a well structured augment against registration (remember we have removed cost as a variable here) it would be great.

Surely on cost alone the argument for registration falls down though. We don't live in a hypothetical world. I fail to see the reasoning behind this when in actuality any form of registration has been reasonably deemed (IMO) to be a horse flogged.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby il padrone » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:01 pm

BillWatson wrote:Sir, I please forgive me if I am wrong, but I fear that you are part of the 1%.

Getting one step closer to the cut :roll:
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Pax » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:03 pm

Bill

I vote NO.

Reason: because we don't live in a hypothetical world so the only "reasons" worth exploring are real world reasons adn plenty of those have been given

Now will I offend people if I am the first one who calls a "TROLL ALERT" out loud?? (even though many have probably thought it from the beginning of the thread, but briefly gave it the benefit of the doubt).

Signing off from this thread
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Percrime » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:06 pm

I would like to hold bad drivers accountable.. damnit as I said.
Coming home down Canterbury road today I saw 2 cars with the mirrors smeared flat. No cyclist did that. Just a driver who has no idea how wide his car is. And will have no idea why that cyclist he overtook was annoyed. And will not be bought to account. Seems to me the damage I personally have seen in the last couple of weeks from hit run drivers is more than I have seen in my life from hit run cyclists.

So.... Yeah sure.. the day after every single human being gets an RFID implanted. You ok with that Bill?
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby BillWatson » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:17 pm

Thank You all for your comments,
I would like to thank all those who took the time to outline their reasons. I would especially like to thank AndyTheMan, who outlined the issues very clearly.
Unfortunately it seems that my standards of “well reasoned argument” are a bit higher than they should be. However this discussion has been very educational and I thank you for your time.

What I take away from this, is that if road cyclist want to reduce the animosity that other road uses feel towards them, either warranted or not, then they will have be responsible for the “1%” that create the problem. How the cycling community does this is up to you.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:27 pm

BillWatson wrote:What I take away from this, is that if road cyclist want to reduce the animosity that other road uses feel towards them, either warranted or not, then they will have be responsible for the “1%” that create the problem. How the cycling community does this is up to you.

so what are you doing about the % of motorists who "create the problem"?

if your answer is "reporting their rego to police" i'm pretty certain the broad experience of members on this forum with that approach enables us to conclude: it doesn't work.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby rkelsen » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:35 pm

BillWatson wrote:Unfortunately it seems that my standards of “well reasoned argument” are a bit higher than they should be.

There has been plenty of patient and well reasoned argument here. That you chose to ignore it is hardly the fault of any of the people who posted to this thread.
BillWatson wrote:What I take away from this, is that if road cyclist want to reduce the animosity that other road uses feel towards them, either warranted or not, then they will have be responsible for the “1%” that create the problem.

What does that have to do with your question?
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby KenGS » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:35 pm

BillWatson wrote:Thank You all for your comments,
I would like to thank all those who took the time to outline their reasons. I would especially like to thank AndyTheMan, who outlined the issues very clearly.
Unfortunately it seems that my standards of “well reasoned argument” are a bit higher than they should be. However this discussion has been very educational and I thank you for your time.

What I take away from this, is that if road cyclist want to reduce the animosity that other road uses feel towards them, either warranted or not, then they will have be responsible for the “1%” that create the problem. How the cycling community does this is up to you.

But there is no cycling community any more than there is a driving community or a pedestrian community.
We are all just ordinary human beings - well most of us anyway
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby BillWatson » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:44 pm

jules21 wrote:
BillWatson wrote:What I take away from this, is that if road cyclist want to reduce the animosity that other road uses feel towards them, either warranted or not, then they will have be responsible for the “1%” that create the problem. How the cycling community does this is up to you.

so what are you doing about the % of motorists who "create the problem"?



Correct me if Im wrong, but there are dedicted Police Divisions in every state to takcle this, and a network of cameras and other sensors that target errant drivers.
There large amount of Public funds for road traffic education, as well ather other non Government Organizations. It may not seem effective, there are lots of people who dedicate their lives to road safety.

Is that enough for you jules21? Or shall we get the Department of Defence involved as well?
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Percrime » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:57 pm

Oh Pullleeze. When was the last time you saw a cop car on the road booking people for say.. failing to indicate. It is true the cops are hot on speeding. cos that 5 kph matters so much. They ain't so hot on close overtakes improper lane changes, fail to indicate. failing to dip high beam

Hell they will run a camera on a safe bit of road and nail people doing 5 over and refuse to attend a rear end collision down the road because "no one was injured" Difficult for no offense to have occurred in a rear ender. They ain't doing law enforcement. They should be. They should be booking drivers and cyclists hand over foot. For every offence. Except being marginally over the speed limit on safe roads.

I counted cars using indicators correctly one night at about 9:30. By the time I got to Blackburn from the city I was up to 20.

As for education. MOST motorists believe that registration pays for roads.. that cyclists cannot ride 2 abreast and must ride as far left as possible. Many dont believe cyclists have any rights at all. At least half believe opening a door into traffic (us ) is the traffics lookout. Most seem to believe that overtaking a bike and then turning left is legal. Most dont know we legally dont have to indicate left. Etc Etc. Hows that education thing going do you think?
Last edited by Percrime on Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby bychosis » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:04 pm

Bill,

with respect, I believe there have been several well reasoned arguements against bicycle registration and it would appear that you had your mind made up prior to posting. I respect your opinion and have enjoyed the discussion herein. Thankyou for returning and contributing further but i fear that no further discussion will change your mind, I know this discussion has only cemented my opinion on bicycle rego.

I'm out.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:12 pm

Sigh, yer try to play nice...

I'm glad you read my sig Bill, not so impressed that you misinterpreted it.
As an example going back to a few months before that post that I have quoted, I chose to break the law to ensure my safety. Essex St Footscray, wide enough for most to share but not the ubiquitous white ute that decided it wanted to, at bare minimum, break my right arm with its bullbar. Fortunately, I saw him angle across in my mirror and heard him put on steam. I chose to break the law and jump over the gutter onto the footpath (Illegal in most parts of the country for cyclists over 12 years of age).
Of course, I immediately stopped and gave myself a few minutes so I could shove my 250bpm heart back down my throat to its ordained position.
Had Mr Plod shown at the time looking askance at my blatantly illegal actions he would have been told exactly why and of my willingness to pay the consequenes of my illegal action. I am quite sure that my Wife and two children would think the fine for my illegal behaviour at the time a small price to pay to keep me out of the back of the coroners wagon.

BTW, I was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too busy trying not to die to worry about this blokes rego number and my handlebar mounted camera was of course getting wonderful images of the footpath.

Like most riders, I've got a thousand of these tales and a million ones where I've just been upset. How many times can you honestly say a cyclist has put you in fear of your life?

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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:18 pm

What makes Australia so special that it has to have registration plates on bicycles.
Must be all that space and small population :roll: .
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby il padrone » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:22 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Must be all that space and small population :roll: .

You referring to the neurons in the brain cases of our red-neck motorists ?? :P
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Comedian » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:24 pm

I'm ok with bike registration as long as all pedestrians are forced to wear both helmets and a vest with their pedestrian number displayed. They are by far the most lawless group on the roads .... I think they should be registered too...

Not that registration stops people doing stoopid stuff.
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Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:24 pm

toolonglegs wrote:What makes Australia so special that it has to have registration plates on bicycles.
Must be all that space and small population :roll: .

+ *insert number here
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