National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby human909 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:55 pm

gorilla monsoon wrote:And you know what Human 909? I reckon you'd be the first to have a serious spit if things didn't go your way and you got carved-up in traffic and it was your own doing that caused it.

Baseless and unfair accusations.

gorilla monsoon wrote:So assuming you drive a car is it also, by your logic, okay to drive without a seatbelt because it was (a) only a short distance and (b) you were not planning to drive fast?

I don't have a moral objection to that at all.

gorilla monsoon wrote:Okay to have a few drinks then drive home because you (a) know a back street and (b) it isn't very far or (c) you always drive better with a couple of beers under the belt.

I have a moral objection to putting others at risk.

gorilla monsoon wrote:Do you run red lights in your car like you do on your bike and if not, why not?

I have no moral objection to cars going through red lights if there is no other traffic at all. I have don't it once on section of road where they installed a right turn arrow when one was previously not installed. Perfect visibility. I don't see how it was morally right last week but suddenly immoral this week.

gorilla monsoon wrote:You see it doesn't matter about things being morally right or wrong it matters about them being socially or legally right or wrong because while the law can blanket a community no two people have the exact same moral compass.

Since when have I argued otherwise? Since when have I disagreed with that law? It wasn't me who brought morals into this.


gorilla monsoon wrote:he is trying to make a difference while you seem to be trying to make a mischief.

I fear his 'difference' is to entrench that the notion that cyclists running red lights is common and that it is a terrible action if they do. I don't feel that it will reduce the numbers of cyclists running red lights. As far as I'm concerned it isn't helping.
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by BNA » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:32 pm

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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:32 pm

"I fear his 'difference' is to entrench that the notion that cyclists running red lights is common and that it is a terrible action if they do".
You don't fear that we haven't already been tarred with that brush years before you set digits to keyboard?
From non forumites, all of whom ride a bike:

" It would kill me to think some wonderful person p plater thinks its ok to side swipe my girl on her commute ride to work, just because he can justify it by watching some dinkus rider run a red in traffic".
Thank you! Holy deal, I get so mad at all the bicyclists that do whatever the well they want, and then get mad when drivers don't give them more space. Ugh!"
"Ok, something else for my bike buddies - we are NOT racing on roads that are open to all. It only takes a second to stop and be safe at red lights and stop signs, PLUS it gives non biking car drivers one less thing to criticize about cyclists!"
"In California the fine of running a red light on a bicycle is $400. On every ride I take, I see 2 0r three cyclist doing it. That's because those riders "know what they are doing" red light are only a guide line to them, cause they are that good.."
"Please stop! It's the law and it upholds our image."
" Yes, good. I stopped before an oncoming cyclist yesterday at a 4-way stop. She signaled to turn across my path before hitting the intersection, but then did not slow down and just turned right through with no regard of the fact that she just ran the stop sign and violated my right-of-way. That's okay, I knew it would happen, so I defensively waited.
"I like the fact that people cycle and enjoy it and keep themselves in shape doing it. I do not like it when they forget that while on the asphalt, their rules are the same as those of cars. I'm not even that strict of a rule-follower. But right-of-way and stopping at stop signals in traffic are safety principles."
"As a cyclist, it really irritates me when I see other cyclists breaking the law. I told my kids when they were growing up and still tell the kids in my scout troop that the motorist you tick off may not take it out on you, but they're very likely to take it out on the next cyclist they come across."
" I seriously think bike riders should be able to roll through lights like a giveway sign like buses in some cities, this would allow them to clear traffic, but until then stop at the bloody lights and get some practice track standing or clipping out and in :-)"
I lost count of the number of cyclists I saw riding through red lights in Melbourne. Please share a smart common sense approach."
" Yes they should, so many cyclists go through the red lights and get all cyclists a bad name"
"Motorists hate cyclists for many reasons- some are for their own complete ignorance of the road rules and some are for cyclists' complete disregard for the road rules. You wouldn't run a red light in a car- don't do it on your bike. It won't solve all issues but you are just as ignorant as these motorists if you don't think it contributes to the problem."
"yes do stop at the red light the few cyclists who go through red lights give a bad name to all the other law abiding cyclists."

That was 5 minutes of cutting and pasting from a small portion of the 89 shares the red poster received in just the first day on FB alone, and represents the very tip of the Ice Berg (literally thousands of comments from around the world) in terms of how fed up cyclists are with the minority ruining it for everyone else. You're trying to argue the point in the face of strong - very strong - public opinion including within our own ranks.
BTW I haven't seen too many of your posts containing "IMO", nevertheless I don't make the assumption that you are necessarily stating fact in your posts. Please begin giving everyone else the same courtesy. It'll shorten alot of threads by a fair few pages if you think about things like a more well rounded objective cyclist.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby human909 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:46 pm

My goal in cycling advocacy is to make it a safer place for all cyclists. I don't believe you campaign in any way helps achieve that. All it does it focus cyclists and motorists on a strawman argument when it comes to cycling safety.

Holland and Denmark and Germany haven't made cycling safer by forcing cyclists to wear helmets and feel guilty about the harmless law breaking of others. :idea:


As I have said before. I do avoid blatently running red lights at intersection when there are other vehicles around. I don't avoid it at 2:00am with no traffic in sight. However you campaign does make me want to do it while riding with no hands on the handlebars, without a helmet in front of Flinders St Station! :mrgreen: (Some would call it mischief, I'd call it a protest. :wink: )
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby Oxford » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:58 pm

human909 wrote:
Oxford wrote:Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

If your morals allow you to break the law (and it is the law for most of them in most states, so no arguments there), then I question your moral integrity as a person.


I question your morally basis if you EVER let the law dictate morals to you. :idea: Laws can be wrong, very wrong be it in Nazi Germany, Apartheid or modern Australia.


Personally I feel quite comfortable with my set of morals. In fact I (and others around me) would consider me to be and ethical and moral person. I am not Christian, but I do believe a good basis for life is 'Love thy neighbour' and 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.
Don't confuse morals and laws. Morals are a personal belief system to live by, laws are a societal system to operate under. And if I thought the fabric of society was being threatened by something as inane as the traffic regulations then I might be concerned, but the reality is the traffic regulations simply try to provide some certainty for society. Why I question your morals is that you seem to think it is alright to disrupt a societal system and structure that would work if all users abided by it (no matter how inconvenient to individuals). Choosing not to shows a lack societal responsibility, something that could be morally questionable. YMMV.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:35 pm

Oxford wrote:If your morals allow you to break the law (and it is the law for most of them in most states, so no arguments there), then I question your moral integrity as a person.


+1.

And i call Godwin's Law btw.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby hannos » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:03 pm

ldrcycles wrote:
And i call Godwin's Law btw.


Bugger! I saw that reference but couldn't recall the Law...
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:21 pm

Well Human, your helmutless no hands advocacy could get you onto the front page if you get your timing just right. You'll set my advocacy back 3 years, but Yin and Yang and all that I guess :lol:
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:46 pm

ldrcycles wrote:And i call Godwin's Law btw.


Denied, the point raised was valid. Unfortunately put by reference to the situation in Germany 1933-45 but still valid as other equally suitable comparisons were made.

(My finger was hovering on the lock button until I reread the post.)

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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby gorilla monsoon » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:25 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:And i call Godwin's Law btw.


Denied, the point raised was valid. Unfortunately put by reference to the situation in Germany 1933-45 but still valid as other equally suitable comparisons were made.

(My finger was hovering on the lock button until I reread the post.)

Shaun


Yeah, that's why I didn't call Godwin's Law. :wink:
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:49 pm

What did the Germans do now?! :?
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:16 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:What did the Germans do now?! :?

They released the 1 series BMW.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby Xplora » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:48 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:What did the Germans do now?! :?

They released the 1 series BMW.

Oktoberfest?
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:03 pm

Xplora wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:What did the Germans do now?! :?

They released the 1 series BMW.

Oktoberfest?

Ah right. You can add A Christmas with David Hasselhoff to that as well.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby kb » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:44 am

human909 wrote:Personally I feel quite comfortable with my set of morals.

It's a rare individual that doesn't. Often deserving serious respect.

[Edit: That didn't come out quite right :-) I'm not casting aspersions. It's clear that you do think about what you do]

human909 wrote: In fact I (and others around me) would consider me to be and ethical and moral person. I am not Christian, but I do believe a good basis for life is 'Love thy neighbour' and 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.

That may be partly why there is so much disagreement here. The Golden Rule is too simplistic. People just vary too much. I'd call it a starting point.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby Alistair » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:26 pm

human909 wrote:My goal in cycling advocacy is to make it a safer place for all cyclists.


Are righteous forum posts really advocacy though?

All the good intentions in the world won't make these posters effective. The campaign strategy needs to be smarter, and communicated better.

Fighting the sediment that settles in the comments section of news websites isn't going to achieve anything.

Transport planning is changing fast, and cycling infrastructure is a massive priority - even without state funding here. But what is built often isn't safe. You need to be smart and target the right people, because misguided campaigns won't achieve anything.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:33 pm

Alistair wrote:
human909 wrote:My goal in cycling advocacy is to make it a safer place for all cyclists.


Are righteous forum posts really advocacy though?

All the good intentions in the world won't make these posters effective. The campaign strategy needs to be smarter, and communicated better.

Fighting the sediment that settles in the comments section of news websites isn't going to achieve anything.

Transport planning is changing fast, and cycling infrastructure is a massive priority - even without state funding here. But what is built often isn't safe. You need to be smart and target the right people, because misguided campaigns won't achieve anything.

Infrastructure is a priority for who? In regards to budgets, it's nearly always left to Joe Blow to organise any form of campaign with regards to us. The Qld Govt allocated $100,000 in last years budget for "education" campaigns, all of which was chewed up in three days of statewide publication in print media.
They won't spend and we can't spend.
Finally, if you don't like SCA pointing out the bleeeding obvious, tell your mates to pull their heads in. We all know them, either by name, usual time or usual place.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:49 pm

G'day Bill Watson :)
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:50 pm

He's a motorist.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:50 pm

...and I'm getting my post count up.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby Oxford » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:53 pm

post whore
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby human909 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:56 pm

kb wrote:It's a rare individual that doesn't. Often deserving serious respect.

[Edit: That didn't come out quite right :-) I'm not casting aspersions. It's clear that you do think about what you do]

That may be partly why there is so much disagreement here. The Golden Rule is too simplistic. People just vary too much. I'd call it a starting point.

Discussions about morals is clearly a big tangent and not exactly needed in this debate. However thanks for your recognition here, and thanks for at least stepping up to philosophical level in reply. :wink:

Alistair wrote:
human909 wrote:My goal in cycling advocacy is to make it a safer place for all cyclists.


Are righteous forum posts really advocacy though?

All the good intentions in the world won't make these posters effective. The campaign strategy needs to be smarter, and communicated better.

Fighting the sediment that settles in the comments section of news websites isn't going to achieve anything.

Transport planning is changing fast, and cycling infrastructure is a massive priority - even without state funding here. But what is built often isn't safe. You need to be smart and target the right people, because misguided campaigns won't achieve anything.

I completely agree with you Alistair. I think you may have quoted my comment by mistake though. :D
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby Alistair » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:06 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:
Alistair wrote:
human909 wrote:My goal in cycling advocacy is to make it a safer place for all cyclists.


Are righteous forum posts really advocacy though?

All the good intentions in the world won't make these posters effective. The campaign strategy needs to be smarter, and communicated better.

Fighting the sediment that settles in the comments section of news websites isn't going to achieve anything.

Transport planning is changing fast, and cycling infrastructure is a massive priority - even without state funding here. But what is built often isn't safe. You need to be smart and target the right people, because misguided campaigns won't achieve anything.

Infrastructure is a priority for who? In regards to budgets, it's nearly always left to Joe Blow to organise any form of campaign with regards to us. The Qld Govt allocated $100,000 in last years budget for "education" campaigns, all of which was chewed up in three days of statewide publication in print media.
They won't spend and we can't spend.
Finally, if you don't like SCA pointing out the bleeeding obvious, tell your mates to pull their heads in. We all know them, either by name, usual time or usual place.


Every major project - look at feasibilities and master plans for shopping centres to skyscrapers and everything between. What is built often is poorly thought out. That isn't government money, but might be the difference between thousands considering riding a bike or not. These projects conciously don't provide parking now, and promote active transport.

If the budget is only $100k, why not use it better? Whoever decided on that strategy is obviously an idiot.

I'm not sure who you think my "mates" are, but I'm just suggesting more consideration be put into developing realistic strategies. This is what I do, and I can see how good your intentions are.

I don't intend to post in here again - i was updating my computer and strayed in here on my phone while I was waiting. It won't happen again!
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby The 2nd Womble » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:10 pm

Twas' a generalisation
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby human909 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:58 am

I think many of us saw the results of the questions from a motorist thread. I'm glad I haven't dared looked into it after the 3rd post until now.

Simply put lets not try to hard to police our own, certainly not publically, lest we continue to ingrain the notion that we are responsible for the 1%! Cyclists are not a community any more than 'motorists' are a community.
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Re: National Ninja Day - Saturday Oct 6.

Postby lethoso » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:02 pm

The 2nd Womble wrote:in my opinion and everyone elses


hurf durf durf

If the lights are being crashed so hard perhaps the council should look at redesigning the intersection. People do what people do.
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