A question from a motorist

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Re: A question from a motorist

Postby trailgumby » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:26 pm

BillWatson wrote:..if road cyclist want to reduce the animosity that other road uses feel towards them.. then they will have be responsible for the “1%” that create the problem. How the cycling community does this is up to you.

jules21 wrote:so what are you doing about the % of motorists who "create the problem"?

BillWatson wrote:Correct me if Im wrong, but there are dedicted Police Divisions in every state to takcle this..

jules21 wrote:no. i asked what you were doing to "be responsible for the “1%” that create the problem". i'll assume the answer is "nothing" then. yet you seem to demand that cyclists be responsible for other cyclists. that seems like a double standard to me. but then, the whole thread is premised on a double standard isn't it?

Double standard in spades.... in fact the very definition thereof.

As expected, there's been a singular unwillingness to move from his original position. What a surprise.

And here's another: Mr Watson doesn't like having the mirror held up in front of him.

We've had a wonderful game of bait the cyclists. Time to blow the final whistle and close the thread methinks. Score: Nil all.
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by BNA » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:32 pm

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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby il padrone » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:32 pm

Funny thing is, Mr Watson seems happy to rely on police doing the enforcement of motorists, but somehow he thinks they don't do the same for cyclists - instead we cyclists have to 'enforce' our lot :?

Here's a clue - police enforce all laws on all people. As far as road law is concerned, most road rules apply equally to motorists and to cyclists ie. to all vehicle operators. :idea:
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby KonaCommuter » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:39 pm

Dang I hate being sucked in by Trolls.




As for being able to identify everyone/thing .........

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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby pacra » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:05 pm

In the OP Bill Watson states a reason for registration as law enforcement. As I understand it the basis for vehicle registration is taxation of road use, to establish and protect ownership, and ensure vehicle safety standards.

As far as any cyclist breaking road rules, that is a police matter of enforcement. In Victoria any cyclist fined by the police loses points from his driver's licence even though not driving a car or requiring a licence to ride a bike. The arguement for bike registration as a means of law enforcement does not logically hold up.

On the other hand, if they want to register bikes as a means of tax then it should reflect the cost to society of cyclists, road maintenance, accident costs etc. I don't know what accident costs caused by cyclists are but road maintenance and upkeep costs from cyclists are minimal.

I weigh about 95 Kg, with a steel frame and backpack about another 15 Kg. All up my axle weight is around 55 Kg vs 700 Kg for an average car (per axle). I am about one fourteenth of a car and in terms of wear on roads you use a 4th power rule which puts my road cost down below a thousandth of a car. If a car registration (excluding 3rd party insurance) is a couple of hundred dollars a fair cost for me would be around 20 cents per annum. I would be willing to pay that any day they want and all I would ask in return is equal rights on the roads including the use of freeways.

All that aside I would hate to be the cop who stands outside the primary school checking the bike registration of ten year olds.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby MikeyD360 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:13 pm

BillWatson wrote:If I may I would like to pose a couple of hypothetical for general discussion

2. During peak hour a driver moves a bit too close to a cyclist (without any malice). While this is to be considered dangerous, no harm was done. However, the cyclist is having a bad day and as he approaches her at the next lights he hurls abuse and kicks in her door and breaks off her mirror. He then races off ahead of the slow moving traffic. Once again how is this person able to hold the cyclist to account?



Hypothetically, one is driving and is forced to brake suddenly to avoid a jaywalking pedestrian and toots the horn to indicate a dangerous situation. Pedestrian then proceeds to kick the door of the car and jump on the roof.
Said pedestrian then runs off.

Hypothetically, someone breaks into your house through the back window while you are sleeping. You wake and confront the intruder. He/she knocks you out with a bat and/or lamp and you are left with concussion, 12 stitches and several missing items.

Hypothetically, your teenage daughter goes to a party with friends and some older people gatecrash the party and slip a sedative into her drink. She wakes up in a state of undress and obviously has been assaulted. The gatecrashers are nowhere to be seen.

Hypothetically, you are driving in your car and at an intersection a car runs a red light, crashes into you, causing serious injuries. The other drivers runs off, and you later find out the car is stolen.

Hypothetically, you are in a bank making a deposit, when a masked man with a shotgun enters the branch. He demands all of the cash in the bank, as well as your watch, phone and wallet. He then leaves in a stolen getaway car.

Hypothetically, you are sitting at home watching Eastenders when a man from the electricity company comes and advises that you have dangerous wiring and needs to inspect your house. He has credentials, and you let him in. Later you notice many valuables missing, and when reporting the matter to police, discover that the person was using a fake ID and has committed several similar offences. Police have no leads.

Hypothetically, you are leaving a theatre early with your son and wife, when an armed man confronts you in a back alley and demands cash and jewellery. The robbery is botched, you and your wife end up being shot, and your son grows up and decides to become a masked vigilante using the vast financial resources left by your estate, much to the disdain of his long time butler and father figure, and love interests.

All very realistic situations (bar one), and yet - no way of identifying the perpetrator.

You can create hypotheticals to try and prove any argument - and based on your own logic, I ask you to explain to me why it is unreasonable to mandate that all persons must wear visible indentification at all times to enable all members of the public to feel "safe" knowing they can identify the perpetrator of any wrongdoing?

As much as it's nice to live in fantasyland where you can leave your doors unlocked, let your kids play in the park on their own, and anyone who commits a crime is caught and held accountable for their actions - it's not the real world. Youc an also argue that there are many measures that would make it easier to identify criminal and or unsavoury activity. Why don't we let the government monitor all private phone and internet activity for any potential evildoers? Why don't we attach GPS transmitters to all people at birth so that we can pinpoint their location at all times in case they are in danger or commit an offense? Why don't we have random searches of properties just in case someone who has gone un-noticed by police just happens to be hiding inbred children in their basement? Why don't we have a curfew for all citizens given the amount of crime that happens after dark? I would also like valid arguements as to why these are not suitable ideas - and none of the nancy pants blabbering about cost effectiveness, breach of privacy or whatnot - after all, if you have nothing to hide what is the problem?

Am I opposed to the idea of bike registration 'in principle'? not really - if it's free, unobtrusive and shuts up the smokeboxers, then I am all for it. But unfortunately (or fortunately) its simply not an idea with any real merit unless you belong to a select group of intellectuals who still believe the world is flat, homosexuality is a sin, and bikes belong on the footpath.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Alien27 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:06 am

ILoveMyBike wrote:Does anyone have any memories of the yellow Star of David leading up to WW2?


And there it is, the natural conclusion to any heated thread

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

:lol
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby The 2nd Womble » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:08 am

And nobody else likes Western Star butter and fresh bread?! COME ON!!!
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby KonaCommuter » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:12 am

Alien27 wrote:
ILoveMyBike wrote:Does anyone have any memories of the yellow Star of David leading up to WW2?


And there it is, the natural conclusion to any heated thread

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

:lol




The Dutch Royalty asked every Dutch citizen to wear the Star of David during the occupation and subsequently the Dutch Jews weren't persecuted. The Dutch ride bikes. Just sayin' :wink:
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby ILMB » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:13 am

The 2nd Womble wrote:And nobody else likes Western Star butter and fresh bread?! COME ON!!!


I do!

Alien27 wrote:
ILoveMyBike wrote:Does anyone have any memories of the yellow Star of David leading up to WW2?


And there it is, the natural conclusion to any heated thread

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

:lol


I apologise. You caught me before my 2nd thoughts delete. Was not my intention, but referencing earlier posts re embedded micro-chips and skin tatoos.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby high_tea » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:39 am

BillWatson wrote:Thank You all for your comments,
I would like to thank all those who took the time to outline their reasons. I would especially like to thank AndyTheMan, who outlined the issues very clearly.
Unfortunately it seems that my standards of “well reasoned argument” are a bit higher than they should be. However this discussion has been very educational and I thank you for your time.

What I take away from this, is that if road cyclist want to reduce the animosity that other road uses feel towards them, either warranted or not, then they will have be responsible for the “1%” that create the problem. How the cycling community does this is up to you.


Well, Bill, I think the onus to show that such a law would accomplish any useful purpose is on you. You've tried to discharge it with hypotheticals and snide remarks about the 1% (which I thought had to do with outlaw motorcycle gangs, but no matter) and you've failed.

I suspect that the real motivation for the rego-for-cyclists push is this: to assert the primacy of the motor vehicle. The idea that anyone should be able to use the road on terms more favourable than motorists is anathema to a lot of people. So we have helmets for cyclists, rego for cyclists, licensing for cyclists and so on. This is the only reason I can see for the assumption that rego for cyclists is a good thing.

If you want an educational debate, how about you state the assumptions that you operate under. I'm more than happy to put my cards on the table: I assume that all human beings have an inherent dignity, whether they drive a car or not. I assume that, because of this inherent dignity people are entitled to freedom of movement and that it shouldn't be interfered with lightly. Every transport law should be examined in light of that. Rego for cyclists fails. The reasons it fails have been discussed at length in this thread and I have nothing to add.

Now, Bill, what assumptions are you operating under? Educate me.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Oxford » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:26 am

ILoveMyBike wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:And nobody else likes Western Star butter and fresh bread?! COME ON!!!


I do!

...


....[/quote]
Me too. Me too.

And those hypotheticals were good, the last one the most realistic IMO. That could really happen, the others don't have a chance.
Building more roads to prevent congestion is like a fat man loosening his belt to prevent obesity.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby skull » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:07 am

Bill,

You say we only pick on wrong doings of motorists and pedestrians. You obviously didn't see the posts pointing out wrong doings by cyclist. In fact some of us even nominate our own poor actions in there.

But being a cycling forum we would be bias. A bit like a motorists forum being bias to vehicles.

As for justifying why we don't pay Rego. We don't need to, the law states we don't need Rego. It is as simple as that, state and federal policy doesn't require it. So no point getting narky at bike riders as they are doing something they are legally entitled too.

Also as for being accountable, a cyclist is. The police enforce the laws, not peds or motorists.

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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby queequeg » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:27 am

So glad I didn't get sucked into this one!
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby rkelsen » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:39 am

high_tea wrote:Now, Bill, what assumptions are you operating under? Educate me.

He seems to have come here looking for some confirmation bias, and was apparently upset that he didn't get any.

I don't think he's coming back.

The mods should lock this thread before it becomes another 20 page circle-jerk.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Mrfenejeans » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:47 am

The only way to understand the views of a cyclist and what a cyclist deals with day in day out, be it on the road or having conversations like this with work colleagues and family members is to buy a bike ride it and experience it, and you may even see some health benefits.

If you aren't open minded enough to give it a try, it would be your loss.




Of course as I have stated in my previous posts most cyclists are motorists as well, so we do see things from both sides we are not one minded 1percenters of society who take no interest in obeying the laws or respecting society at large.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:27 pm

trailgumby wrote:Time to blow the final whistle and close the thread methinks.

So moved.
rkelsen wrote:The mods should lock this thread before it becomes another 20 page circle-jerk.

Seconded.

What say you ladies and gentlemen?
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Oxford » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:44 pm

hear hear.
Building more roads to prevent congestion is like a fat man loosening his belt to prevent obesity.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby ldrcycles » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:46 pm

Maybe give it 24 hours for "bill watson" to reply, if not, lock?
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby ZepinAtor » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:16 pm

I think this orange font looks really fantastic
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Oxford » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:17 pm

why don't we all go to http://www.motorists.net.au/ and ask what the members there are going to do about the road carnage, you know how its a community and all, we should expect them to police their own after all.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby damhooligan » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:22 pm

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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby ZepinAtor » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:44 pm

Your lock is faulty
Gas propulsion.......it's natural don't fight it.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Was never going to end well.
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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby il padrone » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:23 pm

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Re: A question from a motorist

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:30 pm

ZepinAtor wrote:I think this orange font looks really fantastic


It is nice isn't it? And the bold make it look so much more orange :)

Methinks ldr has a good idea, we give Mr Watson 24 more hours to present ONE cogent and reasoned argument in favour of his theory that bicycle registration will make the world a better, brighter place. Say 1930 tomorrow?
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