Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MattyK » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:29 pm

SpecialSed are teasing with SRAM hydros...
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/08/23/spe ... es-images/

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by BNA » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:02 pm

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby JustJames » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:02 pm

Ref the Zinn article above...

Whenever an expert - and Zinn's expertise is, in fairness, considerable - announces that something can't be done, you can usually be sure that somebody is working on a way to do it.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:24 pm

I'm certainly eagerly awaiting the SRAM Hydro setup.

Thanks for the post mattyK
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Crittski » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:21 pm

MichaelB wrote:I'm certainly eagerly awaiting the SRAM Hydro setup.

Thanks for the post mattyK


Indeed thanks, I will be on these like a fat kid on a cupcake...

Bring on Eurobike2012...
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby baabaa » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:38 pm

Hydro Hopes on a Ti Colossal. http://ridingagainstthegrain.com/2012/0 ... al-review/

A few good questions and answers on the whys of disc drop bars such as ...

The circumstances where a Colossal would make sense to me, at this stage in my riding and bike collecting, would be medium to long distance rides, particularly on moderate surfaces or chip seal, credit card touring, and foul-weather riding or mountain riding where the disc brakes make sense.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:54 pm

I hope no-one ever picks up a D shackle with those Enve forks. Instant superman impression while wondering what happened.
Image

Safer to have a 'cross fork IMO. Tyre width in pic below measures 24.8mm and a D shackle will pass straight through as I've tried it.
Image


Also Salsa might have trouble selling all-weather road bikes that can't easily fit mudguards. They obviously think they have some kind of niche market for them though.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:49 am

Nobody wrote:I hope no-one ever picks up a D shackle with those Enve forks. Instant superman impression while wondering what happened.
.....


Mind you, that goes for any fork on a road bike vs a D-shackle. I hope never to prove the theory.

The ENVE fork will obviously never fit a mudguard, as I understand that pic is with a 25C tyre.

Whilst my Kona fork doesn't have the same clearance as the CX versions (like Nobody's), there is still plenty of room even after a 28C tyre is fitted.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:59 am

some interesting disc based pron at http://road.cc

Time's Fluidity S looks schmick, but is cable braked.

Even more interesting was that a test ride on the Colnago C59 disc mentioned that the TRP Parabox oprovided better feel and braking ( :mrgreen: what I have) and thet the Formula Di2 levers are not real flash.

REALLY hanging out to see the SRAM Hyd Road groupset. My bet is that the weight penalty with be SFA.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby jacks1071 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:37 pm

We were feeling alright last night and decided to take the Tandem up the climb that cooked our Avid BB5's nearly to the point of failure.

Havn't been back there since despite changing the brakes to the Bengal MB700T - I can't tell you how scarey it is to be on a very steep decent, two up on a tandem with brakes that are fading fast.

Did the new brakes hold up? ABSOLUTELY, I only needed about half power on them and we were fully under control, no burning smells and no blue rotors at the bottom. Last time we did this I had the levers pulled into the bars, smoke comming off the rotors and the bike was speeding up near the bottom. SCAREY.

I will mention we changed the rotors at the sametime to 203mm (from 160mm) which I am sure would be responsible for some of the improvement.

Very happy with the combo, we get a lot of twanging noises from the bigger rotors because any flex is multiplied which was far less of an issue on the smaller rotors.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:40 pm

Thanks for posting. :)

I was curious to see how much difference the changes made. It should give those who think you can take the weight weenie approach something more to think about.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:40 am

First siting of SRAM Hydraulic ?????

Image

Teaser pic from Canyon at Eurobike 2012

Yummy
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:33 am

Looks like Project 6.8 is dead then. No small dual front disks on that.

Looks like they have a 160 on the front. Hopefully the idea that 140 on the front of a road bike as a good specification will die off. As a manufacturer, you have to assume that a 100Kg+ guy is going to buy your bike to take into the mountains. So the brakes need to be specified to the heaviest person (the bike is specified for) in the most difficult terrain, with the most uneducated approach to braking. If it won't survive that easily, then it shouldn't be on the bike.

Also, as bad as it may look, I think the caliper should be on the front. This should provide better air cooling (especially for hydraulic) and to avoid stressing the quick release by the direction of the braking forces on axle.

jasonc just posted this in another thread. It shows the Volagi Viage is a Kickstarter project.
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby jasonc » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:01 am

Nobody wrote:Looks like Project 6.8 is dead then.

disappointing. i liked the double-disk front look

Also, as bad as it may look, I think the caliper should be on the front. This should provide better air cooling (especially for hydraulic) and to avoid stressing the quick release by the direction of the braking forces on axle.


isn't it the disc that requires cooling rather than the caliper?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:07 am

jasonc wrote:isn't it the disc that requires cooling rather than the caliper?
Both require cooling.

Edit: To remove unsubstantiated and likely false correlation.
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 am

Nobody wrote:
jasonc wrote:isn't it the disc that requires cooling rather than the caliper?
Both require cooling. In cars they usually place the caliper on the front of the disc on the front of the car.


Yes to the first (both require cooling).

The placement of the caliper is more about overall packaging of the system and weight distribution.

Typically the caliper is actually at the rear (on the font discs) as it allows a better path for cooling air to get to the inner core of the vented disc (air flows from centre to outside of disc).

Usually in road cars, it is the pad material that fades at high temps before the fluid boiling is an issue.



Almost need a new thread with the 2013 Road Disc bikes .....
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby baabaa » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:32 am

Looks like they have a 160 on the front. Hopefully the idea that 140 on the front of a road bike as a good specification will die off. As a manufacturer, you have to assume that a 100Kg+ guy is going to buy your bike to take into the mountains. So the brakes need to be specified to the heaviest person (the bike is specified for) in the most difficult terrain, with the most uneducated approach to braking. If it won't survive that easily, then it shouldn't be on the bike.

You seem to think you care more about the welfare of customers than the companies who are making the current line of bikes. Why not write to them directly and expresses your concerns? I very much doubt the trend towards smaller has gone untested by the designers (yes, maybe even with 100kg plus riders). In the meantime, maybe some basics may help you better understand why it is not just about “Oh, I can stop quickly”

It's About Control, Not Power
Many cyclists assume the biggest reason to switch to disc brakes is to gain stopping power. While hydraulic disc brakes on a road bike would almost certainly be more powerful than existing rim brakes, the bigger benefit is actually that cyclists would get control over the available power…….

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/bik ... s?page=0,0
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Crittski » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:00 am

Bah, I had half a hope that Eurobike would see SRAM release hydraulic RED gear, but it seems not. Maybe not Interbike either...

Disappointing to see TRP stop development of Di2 Hydraulic integration too... Might have to grab me a Parabox...

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:18 am

Crittski wrote:Bah, I had half a hope that Eurobike would see SRAM release hydraulic RED gear, but it seems not. Maybe not Interbike either...

Disappointing to see TRP stop development of Di2 Hydraulic integration too... Might have to grab me a Parabox...

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/product- ... still-rare


Bugger about the TRP Hywire. Oh well, seems I'll be sticking with the Parabox for now then.

Go for it Crittski, I don't think you'll be disappointed. There is also the Hope V-twin and the DoppelMoppel systems as well. If you need any info/advice re the Parabox, let me know.

BMC's GF02 - still cable disc.

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:54 pm

MichaelB wrote:Typically the caliper is actually at the rear (on the font discs) as it allows a better path for cooling air to get to the inner core of the vented disc (air flows from centre to outside of disc).
You are correct and I have made a false correlation. Sorry I'll edit.
All the Japanese cars I've had have had the front wheel calipers at the front. Not mine but example below.
http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/6 ... aspx#photo
Where others appear to have them differently for packaging or weight distribution.
http://cdn-www.rsportscars.com/images/p ... riving.jpg

Having a look at my setup on Celica, it is clear that the wheel shields the whole area anyway. However it still could be of benefit to have the caliper in front of the bike fork rather than air being shielded by it. Whether this and the braking forces going up at the axle has more value than the loss of aesthetics is another matter.
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Crittski » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:01 pm

MichaelB wrote:If you need any info/advice re the Parabox, let me know.


Have you cut your rear hose, and re-bled the line yet, any source on parts required/source of parts? Does it use DOT, or mineral oil? (I must admit I have a wiggle cart open with a parabox waiting for checkout in it!)
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:46 pm

Nobody wrote: ..... However it still could be of benefit to have the caliper in front of the bike fork rather than air being shielded by it. Whether this and the braking forces going up at the axle has more value than the loss of aesthetics is another matter.


Yep, 100% correct, and provides other side benefits as well.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby cobba » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:59 am

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:59 pm


Image
Image

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

Although still hard to compare due to different camera angles and photo sizing, I'd say that the size is still the same. Since size was my primary interest, I won't be upgrading anytime soon for just the look and some grams.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:24 pm

A bit more info on the Culprit brand (being manufactured by Trigon) ;

Culprit quote a 56cm frame weight of 1,150g (raw finish), 470g for the fork (again, raw finish). The frameset – frame, fork, headset, seatpost, front and rear brakes – will be priced at $2,595 (about £1,640 at today’s exchange rate).

http://road.cc/content/news/64729-eurobike-2012-culprit-launch-croz-blade-disc-equipped-aero-road-bike

Image

Not sure on the paintjob.

F&F pricing puts it in the same leauge as the Volagi Liscio (latest goss is that due in Aus late October ...)
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby rkelsen » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:30 pm

JustJames wrote:Whenever an expert - and Zinn's expertise is, in fairness, considerable - announces that something can't be done, you can usually be sure that somebody is working on a way to do it.

You might be right. But disc brakes aren't a new technology. Any improvement in car/motorcycle brakes tends to come from bigger and heavier rotors and calipers.

"Thus, John, to get better performance from your disc brakes, get thicker cables and housings that won’t compress as much (or a hydraulic system), plus bigger rotors, bigger pads and stiffer calipers. You’ll have to suck up extra weight and aerodynamic drag as the costs of good braking."

I think it'll continue to be this way until someone develops an alternate material.
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