Reasons for wheel failures

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Re: Mavic Aksium

Postby ironhanglider » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:17 pm

I continue to be impressed by your talent for breaking stuff. :)

I haven't had much in the way of hub problems for years mind you I don't ride as often or as hard as you. I haven't broken an axle since I started using freehub style hubs in the early 90s, the worst I have had happen was some cones developing pits in them, most likely the result of failing to clean them out and repack them periodically. The last time it had let it go further and destroyed the hub was also years ago.

I seem to recall a few different alloy tubulars still being made, Velocity make a tubular version of the Deep V and someone else makes something nearly identical too (sorry I forgot who). Given your proximity to the factory though, Mavic Reflex rims come in up to 36 spokes according to the website. I have a preference for buying parts and building wheels, but built wheels are often easier to get, and cheaper too.

Cheers,

Cameron
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by BNA » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:32 am

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Re: Mavic Aksium

Postby bardygrub » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:32 am

ironhanglider wrote:I'll chime in with some wheel building theory. Note that I am not any form of engineer or describe myself as an expert, I have merely read some of the books and read some forums like rec.bicycles.tech for a long time where people like Jobst Brandt and Sheldon Brown would contribute. I have also built many wheels for myself, family, friends and customers (when I worked in various bike shops) and have found the following points to hold true.

- Spokes lose tension temporarily when they reach the bottom of the wheel when they are being ridden.
- The fewer spokes there are the more tension each spoke will lose at the bottom
- The more flexible the rim is the more tension each spoke lose at the bottom, lighter and shallower rims tend to be more flexible
- Higher tyre pressure will reduce the tension in all the spokes
- Higher loads (weight) will reduce the tension in the spokes at the bottom
- Pedalling action will reduce the tension in the 'pushing' spokes
- Impacts will reduce the tension (presumably at the bottom).
- Spokes that lose all tension cause problems such as the nipples unwinding and the spoke fatiguing and failing particularly at the elbow (and less commonly at the start of the threads)
- Nipples unwinding can be solved by thread lockers such as loctite, linseed oil etc, or by increasing the tension in the spokes
- Fatigue failures can be dramatically reduced by stress relieving the spokes but for some reason many wheel builders don't do this and few factory build wheels are
- Highly tensioned spokes tend to result in wheels that are less prone to require re-truing.
- Wheels built with highly tensioned spokes are more likely to have fatigue failures in the form of cracking around the spoke holes.
- Wheels built with highly tensioned spokes are more prone to 'potato chip' failures
- Spokes are almost never broken from too much tension.

As you can see some of these factors will combine together this explains why the most common spoke breakage is at the elbow of a pushing spoke. But the weight the wheel carries is almost certainly the largest factor. This explains why the most powerful sprinters still use low spoke count wheels, whereas 40 and 48 spoke wheels are common on touring bikes and tandems. Historically many bikes (British at least) were built with 40 spoke rear and 32 spoke front wheels to reflect the different loads. Somewhere along the way someone figured out that it was cheaper to use the same drillings for the rims and suddenly 36 spoke F&R wheels were standard even for high performance wheels. Then someone got the idea that fewer spokes were lighter and that most high performance wheels were used by people who could get away with 32 spokes. This was in the days of low profile sub 300g rims. Then came the deeper section rims, I suspect more for strength than anything else but they were also marketed as being more aero. This allowed builders to use fewer spokes again but come with a weight penalty. Sheldon said that having the same spoking F&R means that you either have a front wheel that is unnecessarily strong (and therefore heavy) or you have a rear that is not strong enough.

Velocity Deep Vs are renowned as being strong rims, but they weigh in a 520g or so. If I were to build a set of wheels with these I could probably get away with 24R, 20F spoking even though I weigh 110kg at the moment :oops: Although I'm not particularly hard on wheels. In fact my race wheels have carbon rims that are lighter but deeper than this.

toolonglegs wrote:My Aksium lasted about 1000kms before it totally destroyed itself... Cracks on every spoke hole... Not the greatest wheel for a big guy. But this was 2006 so they may have improved.
I like Mavic wheels ( live 10 km's from the factory )... But I never keep them after the 2 year warranty is up!.

If I were to build a set of wheels for TLL for example they would end up being heavier and have more spokes than he would choose to use so it is no surprise that he goes through wheels at a steady rate. The next best solution would be to tension them up higher and hope that he breaks them through some non-warranty mis-adventure before the rims cracked through fatigue.

bardygrub wrote:Before the service i had a slight buckle in the front wheel, which i reported and they trued the wheel. After about three rides i noticed the wheel was buckled again, checked the tension of each spoke and found one compleately loose.


Wheels that have low spoke counts are more susceptible to having the nipples unscrew due to the de-tensioning at the bottom of the wheel. Once this process starts a spoke loses even more tension which is what bardygrub found. The solution is either a threadlocker to stop it unscrewing, or more tension overall. (or wheels that have either more spokes or heavier rims)

rkelsen wrote:Your tyre pressure is too high.
Increased tyre pressure does contribute to the unscrewing of the nipples by reducing the tension in the wheel overall, and possibly also by not letting the tyre cushion impacts as well. Some of rkelsen's other wheel woes sound also sound like either a lack of tension and a failure to stress relieve the spokes, the tyre pressure contributed to the lower tension. The commuter wheel also sounds as if it was afflicted by a bad batch of spokes. Shogun Metro SE's were famous for this in the early 90's and Sapim had trouble with a batch recently (2007?) too.

Part of wheelbuilding is science and you can plug in the numbers and say that for a given weight and rim you need x number of spokes in each wheel at x tension, part if it is art because some riders are just harder on wheels than others of similar weight/height/power. It is easy to overbuild wheels to make them reliable, but to put 48 spoke Deep Vs under a 45kg climber will not give them good performance. This is where the good builders (like TWE) really add value to extract maximum performance at adequate strength/reliability.

Thanks for reading such a long diatribe.

Cheers,

Cameron

Cheers for your input glider, very good info :wink:
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Re: Mavic Aksium

Postby rkelsen » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:56 am

Hey Cameron,

That is an awesome post. Thanks for taking the time to type it all out. I think it should be pasted and "stickied" so that we can point people at it when they ask about wheel failure, which is a fairly common occurence here.

Cheers,


Rob
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby bardygrub » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:44 pm

Hi All,

Recieved a new wheel from Mavic (group sportiff) today :D

Very happy with all parts of there service.

cheers :wink:
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby __PG__ » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:30 pm

ironhanglider - what methods/techniques do you use for stress relieving of spokes?
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby usernameforme » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:04 pm

I personally like to "press" on opposite sides of the rim to remove spoke wind-up. I think there is a large mis-understanding on the term stress-relieving. To me that means removing spoke wind-up, but I know of others who refer to stress-relieving as seating the spokes (some methods do both FWIW). When I build wheels, I get the spokes to seat before I bring the wheel up to tension.
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby ironhanglider » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:10 am

Hi fellow wheel nerds. (whilst addressing usernameforme and _PG_ here the term probably applies to anyone who has bothered to read this thread)

Sorry for the delay I have been offline.

Being a belt and braces kind of guy I do just about everything when building wheels but I don't refer to it all as 'stress relieving' even though they all have a part to play.

I seat the spoke heads into the holes with a steel rod and a hammer. I call this bedding in.
I adjust the angle the spokes come out of the hub with a hammer. I call this bedding in.
I do the pressing on the edges of the rim thing to reduce spoke windup. I don't have a name for this but whilst it unweights spokes enough to allow them to untwist, I don't think that it adds enough strain to be adequate for stress relief.

Stress relieving as I refer to it, is the stressing of the elbow by putting significant additional strain on the spokes. The stresses being relieved are those within the elbow itself.

Sheldon collected the words of Jobst quite well in his wheelbuilding article.

"...After cold forming, steel always springs back a certain amount (spokes are entirely cold formed from wire). Spring-back occurs because part of the material exceeded its elastic limit and part did not. The disparate parts fight each other in tension and compression, so that when the spoke is tensioned, it adds to the tensile stress that can be, and often is, at yield.

"...When spokes are bent into place, they yield locally and addition of tension guarantees that these places remain at yield. Because metal at or near the yield stress has a short fatigue life, these stresses must be relieved to make spokes durable.

"...These peak stresses can be relieved by momentarily increasing spoke tension (and stress), so that the high stress points of the spoke yield and plastically deform with a permanent set. When the stress-relief force is relaxed, these areas cannot spring back, having, in effect, lost their memory, and drop to the average stress of the spoke."


I always do the Jobst Brandt method of grasping parallel spokes near the middle and attempting to squeeze them together. For round spokes I'll often do the Sheldon Brown left crank method as well. I'll always do this with wheels someone/something else has built too, since there is no penalty for doing it again.

Cheers,

Cameron
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby bicyclepassion » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:21 am

I agree with the above points on wheel building, except for the one that says that 'higher tyre pressures will reduce the tension on all spokes.'

I think 'rim shrinkage' due to tyre pressure is impossible, particularly with modern heat treated alloy rims, and carbon rims. I would like to see some discussion on this point, has anyone been able to measure this?

The only time I take 'rim shrinkage' into consideration is when building wheels with wooden rims for vintage race bikes, but even then I doubt whether it is measurable. Wooden rims change diameter very slightly with moisture content, but that is a whole different topic.

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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby biker jk » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:52 pm

bicyclepassion wrote:I agree with the above points on wheel building, except for the one that says that 'higher tyre pressures will reduce the tension on all spokes.'

I think 'rim shrinkage' due to tyre pressure is impossible, particularly with modern heat treated alloy rims, and carbon rims. I would like to see some discussion on this point, has anyone been able to measure this?

The only time I take 'rim shrinkage' into consideration is when building wheels with wooden rims for vintage race bikes, but even then I doubt whether it is measurable. Wooden rims change diameter very slightly with moisture content, but that is a whole different topic.

Warren


Hi Warren. Tyre pressure does reduce the tension in the spokes and I have measured this with a Park spoke tension gauge. When I build wheels I record the spoke tension on each spoke and when the tyres are fitted and inflated I again check the spoke tension again and it is always lower.
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby bardygrub » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:01 am

:shock: Well, the second replacement wheel has folded under the pressure. Spokes coming loose and all that again even after locctite. I have a meeting with my lbs on Thursday were we will sit down and work out what type of wheels we will be replacing the mavics with.

My LBS is prepared to give me the retail price of the Mavic Aksiums off the new set of wheels :D :shock: which i think is really good of them.

Now i know that there has already been input on this thread and others, but would be keen to hear other riders(95kg+) opinions again on what wheels they ride with.

I am happy to spend around the $500.00 mark of my own cash + the 300$ of the return of my current wheels. so a budget of $800.00 ish.

Cheers
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby Nobody » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:23 am

If you want something to last, I suggest you get some touring or pavement wheels with a higher spoke count. I'm only 82Kg but still value higher spoke count wheels. I have 32 on front and 36 on rear. In the last 3 years I've re-tensioned the spokes once, but otherwise they have been fine. I've also had 16/20 spoke Shimano race wheels on the same bike and can hardly notice the difference. Weight is overrated and wheel aero difference is also overrated for most people.
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby bardygrub » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:35 am

Nobody wrote:If you want something to last, I suggest you get some touring or pavement wheels with a higher spoke count. I'm only 82Kg but still value higher spoke count wheels. I have 32 on front and 36 on rear. In the last 3 years I've re-tensioned the spokes once, but otherwise they have been fine. I've also had 16/20 spoke Shimano race wheels on the same bike and can hardly notice the difference. Weight is overrated and wheel aero difference is also overrated for most people.
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Cheers for that :wink:

I found the below interesting about the rider at the front.

We also tested how the effect of drafting. Everybody knows that riding behind another cyclist decreases your wind resistance, but we also found that the front rider benefits from the draft, receiving a push from the rear rider.

:o
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby AndrewBurns » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:43 am

If only there was some way to ride all the way to work in a full aero tuck :P
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby biker jk » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:11 pm

bardygrub wrote::shock: Well, the second replacement wheel has folded under the pressure. Spokes coming loose and all that again even after locctite. I have a meeting with my lbs on Thursday were we will sit down and work out what type of wheels we will be replacing the mavics with.

My LBS is prepared to give me the retail price of the Mavic Aksiums off the new set of wheels :D :shock: which i think is really good of them.

Now i know that there has already been input on this thread and others, but would be keen to hear other riders(95kg+) opinions again on what wheels they ride with.

I am happy to spend around the $500.00 mark of my own cash + the 300$ of the return of my current wheels. so a budget of $800.00 ish.

Cheers


I would suggest stronger rims (less deflection and spoke tension changes). In particular, the new wider rims (22-24mm) which are becoming increasingly available. Some examples include HED Belgium C2, Kinlin XC-279, Pacenti SL23. You don't need to go over the top on spoke count with these rims as they are very stiff.
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby ironhanglider » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:05 pm

bardygrub wrote::shock: Well, the second replacement wheel has folded under the pressure. Spokes coming loose and all that again even after locctite. I have a meeting with my lbs on Thursday were we will sit down and work out what type of wheels we will be replacing the mavics with.

My LBS is prepared to give me the retail price of the Mavic Aksiums off the new set of wheels :D :shock: which i think is really good of them.

Now i know that there has already been input on this thread and others, but would be keen to hear other riders(95kg+) opinions again on what wheels they ride with.

I am happy to spend around the $500.00 mark of my own cash + the 300$ of the return of my current wheels. so a budget of $800.00 ish.

Cheers


Three cheers for a good LBS, they sound like they try to look after you. The loctite was certainly worth a try IMO but clearly you ride 'heavy'. Wider rims are becoming popular for aero reasons but they also permit wider tyres which amongst other attributes look after the rims better. Either deeper rims or more spokes will give you a stronger wheel and both will certainly do so, but do you really want tandem strength wheels? They come at the cost of more metal whether that is a bit more steel or a lot more aluminium. I've just built some tandem race wheels with 23mm wide rims that are only slightly deeper than yours at 25mm, but they do have 40 spokes each. They come in at 2100g for the pair (without discs), I haven't calculated what they would weigh with lighter spokes but under 2kg is easily doable since 40 spokes with nipples came to 300g for these.

30mm deep rims are typically about 520g (in 19mm) they are commonly used on tandems with 32 spoke wheels (although the wider rear hub allows for less severe dishing which allows stronger wheels). This is seen by conservative tandem folk as being unnecessarily minimalist and only for lightweight teams if that puts you in the picture. These would be the most conservative combination for you. You could probably build similar rims with 24 spokes rear and 20 front and be fine.

As for what people have I'd suggest that what anyone has is often more by accident than design. What probably matters it what they would choose next. For example I am 105kg but I tend to ride 'light'. Somehow I'm not a wheel breaker and I can get away with combinations that I wouldn't recommend for others my size. (probably something to do with my lack of power). On my single bikes I typically have 32 spoke shallow rims, but I also have a pair of 50mm deep plastic ones with 20/24 spokes and one pair of old Shimano wheels with hardly any spokes which are under lots of tension. In contrast I also have track wheels that have High flange hubs, 36 spokes and Deep V rims. Not very light but they are very strong. I did once finish a race despite another rider unkindly breaking 4 consecutive left side spokes on my front wheel with 2 laps to go. 8) It wasn't stable enough to sprint on though. :x I also have 32 spoke wheels on my tandem but they have 45mm deep rims (which weigh 880g). Fortunately they seem to be holding up for the riding I do which has my 18kg 3year old as a stoker midweek and my 95kg regular race stoker on weekends.

For commuting wheels for me I'd probably build the Deep V equivalent wheels in 32 spokes, since I have no interest in the cutting edge of performance anymore and that is probably a cost-effective combination.
see View item for example, or View item, but I'd be guided by my hub choice (and 32 F&R are still the most commonly available).

I'd probably also race on them too, but if I were chasing performance I'd go down the plastic wheels route again, (and almost certainly tubulars).

YMMV

Cheers,

Cameron
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby bardygrub » Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:48 am

ironhanglider wrote:
bardygrub wrote::shock: Well, the second replacement wheel has folded under the pressure. Spokes coming loose and all that again even after locctite. I have a meeting with my lbs on Thursday were we will sit down and work out what type of wheels we will be replacing the mavics with.

My LBS is prepared to give me the retail price of the Mavic Aksiums off the new set of wheels :D :shock: which i think is really good of them.

Now i know that there has already been input on this thread and others, but would be keen to hear other riders(95kg+) opinions again on what wheels they ride with.

I am happy to spend around the $500.00 mark of my own cash + the 300$ of the return of my current wheels. so a budget of $800.00 ish.

Cheers


Three cheers for a good LBS, they sound like they try to look after you. The loctite was certainly worth a try IMO but clearly you ride 'heavy'. Wider rims are becoming popular for aero reasons but they also permit wider tyres which amongst other attributes look after the rims better. Either deeper rims or more spokes will give you a stronger wheel and both will certainly do so, but do you really want tandem strength wheels? They come at the cost of more metal whether that is a bit more steel or a lot more aluminium. I've just built some tandem race wheels with 23mm wide rims that are only slightly deeper than yours at 25mm, but they do have 40 spokes each. They come in at 2100g for the pair (without discs), I haven't calculated what they would weigh with lighter spokes but under 2kg is easily doable since 40 spokes with nipples came to 300g for these.

30mm deep rims are typically about 520g (in 19mm) they are commonly used on tandems with 32 spoke wheels (although the wider rear hub allows for less severe dishing which allows stronger wheels). This is seen by conservative tandem folk as being unnecessarily minimalist and only for lightweight teams if that puts you in the picture. These would be the most conservative combination for you. You could probably build similar rims with 24 spokes rear and 20 front and be fine.

As for what people have I'd suggest that what anyone has is often more by accident than design. What probably matters it what they would choose next. For example I am 105kg but I tend to ride 'light'. Somehow I'm not a wheel breaker and I can get away with combinations that I wouldn't recommend for others my size. (probably something to do with my lack of power). On my single bikes I typically have 32 spoke shallow rims, but I also have a pair of 50mm deep plastic ones with 20/24 spokes and one pair of old Shimano wheels with hardly any spokes which are under lots of tension. In contrast I also have track wheels that have High flange hubs, 36 spokes and Deep V rims. Not very light but they are very strong. I did once finish a race despite another rider unkindly breaking 4 consecutive left side spokes on my front wheel with 2 laps to go. 8) It wasn't stable enough to sprint on though. :x I also have 32 spoke wheels on my tandem but they have 45mm deep rims (which weigh 880g). Fortunately they seem to be holding up for the riding I do which has my 18kg 3year old as a stoker midweek and my 95kg regular race stoker on weekends.

For commuting wheels for me I'd probably build the Deep V equivalent wheels in 32 spokes, since I have no interest in the cutting edge of performance anymore and that is probably a cost-effective combination.
see View item for example, or View item, but I'd be guided by my hub choice (and 32 F&R are still the most commonly available).

I'd probably also race on them too, but if I were chasing performance I'd go down the plastic wheels route again, (and almost certainly tubulars).

YMMV

Cheers,

Cameron

Thanks for your input and your time on this Cameron.

When you say "plastic" i take it you mean carbon?

As i see the mavic cosmic slr have the bigger flange hubs and also the carbon spoke that goes from rim to rim with alloy rim and still have the bling factor of 50 mm deep 8) what are your thoughts on this design?

Cheers
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby ironhanglider » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:53 am

bardygrub wrote:
ironhanglider wrote:I'd probably also race on them too, but if I were chasing performance I'd go down the plastic wheels route again, (and almost certainly tubulars).

YMMV

Cheers,

Cameron

Thanks for your input and your time on this Cameron.

When you say "plastic" i take it you mean carbon?

As i see the mavic cosmic slr have the bigger flange hubs and also the carbon spoke that goes from rim to rim with alloy rim and still have the bling factor of 50 mm deep 8) what are your thoughts on this design?

Cheers


Sorry, carbon by itself doesn't make good wheels (or anything structural), it is used as the reinforcement for the resins which are a polymer (plastic). I don't have a problem with rims or frames made out of CFRP but carbon is the common shorthand speak. I reckon that they are more plastic than carbon. (I'll use carbon if that seems less derogatory :) )

These wheels have a lot of stuff that is beyond my experience so I can't really comment on them specifically. The conservative side of me would say that if you buy, (or the shop builds you) a set of wheels with conventional rims and conventional spokes they will always be more easily recoverable from any accidental damage.

I can only assume that the carbon spokes on the Mavics can be adjusted for truing since I thought I saw somewhere that they are replaceable. I wouldn't expect that it wouldn't be a cheap or convenient exercise to replace the spokes though. Proprietary spokes don't do it for me. I don't know anything about their reputation for reliability. You can get CCSLR's for $800 :shock: Do you have data for weight limits etc? Given your history with wheels I'd suggest that you need to choose something that is suitable for a rider up to 20kg heavier than you. If these do that then go for it.

My thoughts are that they are not the conservative choice, however conservative is not the be all and end all. Some sort of emotional attachment is required to make you get out and ride. If they feel good, and they make you feel good, then they are good. Anything else doesn't matter so much.

Cheers,

Cameron
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby limetang » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:47 am

bardygrub wrote::shock: Well, the second replacement wheel has folded under the pressure. Spokes coming loose and all that again even after locctite. I have a meeting with my lbs on Thursday were we will sit down and work out what type of wheels we will be replacing the mavics with.

My LBS is prepared to give me the retail price of the Mavic Aksiums off the new set of wheels :D :shock: which i think is really good of them.

Now i know that there has already been input on this thread and others, but would be keen to hear other riders(95kg+) opinions again on what wheels they ride with.

I am happy to spend around the $500.00 mark of my own cash + the 300$ of the return of my current wheels. so a budget of $800.00 ish.

Cheers


Ive been between 100-105kg over the last 2 years Ive owned my Shimano RS80 C24's. Not so much as a loose or broken spoke, no true required at all.... probably would have traveled over 7500km on them. I have always run 24mm or 25mm tyres as well for what its worth. Funny the only wheel Ive ever broken a spoke on was a 36 hole 3x rear wheel with j bend spokes and weighed a tonne, and I thought it was solid as a rock!
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:49 pm

bardygrub wrote::shock: Well, the second replacement wheel has folded under the pressure. Spokes coming loose and all that again even after locctite. I have a meeting with my lbs on Thursday were we will sit down and work out what type of wheels we will be replacing the mavics with.

My LBS is prepared to give me the retail price of the Mavic Aksiums off the new set of wheels :D :shock: which i think is really good of them.

Now i know that there has already been input on this thread and others, but would be keen to hear other riders(95kg+) opinions again on what wheels they ride with.

I am happy to spend around the $500.00 mark of my own cash + the 300$ of the return of my current wheels. so a budget of $800.00 ish.

Cheers


More money tends to get you into lighter wheels more so than "stronger" - if you have a special talent for breaking stuff I wouldn't head in that direction.

Get a solid reliable wheelset so you can enjoy riding your bike instead of worrying about what is going to break next, you don't need to spend so much to get this.

If you are interested we have a wheelset that'd be perfect for you in terms of stiffness and durability for a fraction of what you are willing to spend.
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby Mozzar » Fri May 10, 2013 3:38 pm

If your LBS doesn't use loctite 222 to stop spokes vibrating loose then your wheels will most likley come loose and be buckled. The best way to stop spokes comming loose is to remove all the wound on tension from the spokes and make sure that all the spokes have the same tension. Then one the wheen is 100% straight you can add the loctite to the nipples to ensure the nipples never vibrate loose.

If you think that bikes shops that add loctite to nipples are not good wheel builders then I'm sorry your mistaken, only the best wheel builders use loctite to finish wheels and hold the nipples in place. I have built 10000's of wheels and have noticved that if i forget to use loctite then they come loose after normal riding and when i use loctite the wheel will stay straight for 10 years +.
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby biker jk » Fri May 10, 2013 4:02 pm

Mozzar wrote:If your LBS doesn't use loctite 222 to stop spokes vibrating loose then your wheels will most likley come loose and be buckled. The best way to stop spokes comming loose is to remove all the wound on tension from the spokes and make sure that all the spokes have the same tension. Then one the wheen is 100% straight you can add the loctite to the nipples to ensure the nipples never vibrate loose.

If you think that bikes shops that add loctite to nipples are not good wheel builders then I'm sorry your mistaken, only the best wheel builders use loctite to finish wheels and hold the nipples in place. I have built 10000's of wheels and have noticved that if i forget to use loctite then they come loose after normal riding and when i use loctite the wheel will stay straight for 10 years +.


Sorry but I disagree. You don't need loctite if the spokes are stress relived and spoke wind up is eliminated. Good wheel builders do this, poor ones use loctite.
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby mick243 » Fri May 10, 2013 5:34 pm

Mozzar wrote:If your LBS doesn't use loctite 222 to stop spokes vibrating loose then your wheels will most likley come loose and be buckled. The best way to stop spokes comming loose is to remove all the wound on tension from the spokes and make sure that all the spokes have the same tension. Then one the wheen is 100% straight you can add the loctite to the nipples to ensure the nipples never vibrate loose.

If you think that bikes shops that add loctite to nipples are not good wheel builders then I'm sorry your mistaken, only the best wheel builders use loctite to finish wheels and hold the nipples in place. I have built 10000's of wheels and have noticved that if i forget to use loctite then they come loose after normal riding and when i use loctite the wheel will stay straight for 10 years +.



strongly disagree for several reasons...

#1 thats the wrong way to use 222, you want 280 ("super wick in") if you're going to use it that way, if you insist on using 222 you need to apply it to the threads before doing up the fastner and in this application it would most likeley cure before you got the wheel trued.

#2 a correctly torqued fastner will not come undone if it has been engineered correctly for its intended use and therefore does not require "magical cures" to stop it coming undone. to correctly torque a fastner, you need to lubricate the threads. when I build (or repair) a wheel, I grease the threads on the spoke and the flange of the nipple with either lithium bearing grease or teflon general purpose grease. some wheel builders use other oils or greases. really good wheel builders lubricate thier nipples, "very ordinary" wheel builders dont, dodgy wheel builders resort to "magic cures" like loctite or linseed oil (which by the way if used as designed, not the way you suggest, do act as a thread lubricant, just not a particularly good one.)
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby Nobody » Fri May 10, 2013 8:58 pm

mick243 wrote: #1 thats the wrong way to use 222, you want 280 ("super wick in") if you're going to use it that way, if you insist on using 222 you need to apply it to the threads before doing up the fastner and in this application it would most likeley cure before you got the wheel trued.
Page 7 of link below.
http://www.loctite.com.au/aue/content_d ... _Guide.pdf
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby Duck! » Wed May 22, 2013 6:44 pm

Mozzar wrote:If your LBS doesn't use loctite 222 to stop spokes vibrating loose then your wheels will most likley come loose and be buckled. The best way to stop spokes comming loose is to remove all the wound on tension from the spokes and make sure that all the spokes have the same tension. Then one the wheen is 100% straight you can add the loctite to the nipples to ensure the nipples never vibrate loose.

If you think that bikes shops that add loctite to nipples are not good wheel builders then I'm sorry your mistaken, only the best wheel builders use loctite to finish wheels and hold the nipples in place. I have built 10000's of wheels and have noticved that if i forget to use loctite then they come loose after normal riding and when i use loctite the wheel will stay straight for 10 years +.

Utter tripe (no surprise really).

Gluing the nipples on is a pretty poor solution to a badly built wheel. I've never used any thread locker on any wheels I've built, and not one wheel has suffered loosening of spokes. If you do it right the first time, there's no need for thread glue.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Reasons for wheel failures

Postby rkelsen » Thu May 23, 2013 10:28 am

bardygrub wrote:Now i know that there has already been input on this thread and others, but would be keen to hear other riders(95kg+) opinions again on what wheels they ride with.

Are you still pumping your tyres up to 120psi?

I hover between 90 and 95 kegs (was 106 when I started), and am currently commuting on some Fulcrum 7's (for which I paid $210 a couple of years ago delivered from Wiggle.co.uk) with some 35mm Vittoria Randonneurs @40psi. Bulletproof. They're at ~7,000km now, with no issues to date.

On the roady, I have a set of the same wheels which I bought second hand from a member here for $135. Tyre wise, it is wearing some 23mm GP4000s @90psi. No issues there either, but it does far fewer km than the commuter.

You don't need to spend a lot of money to get good, strong wheels.
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