HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby sogood » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:27 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Properly dealing with the dopers, the traffickers and those complicit in such actions, as well as coercion to dope, is very much relevant for the future.

All those involved in just this one case are all still currently involved in competing, directing, managing and/or aiding current athletes and teams. The ones found to have engaged in such activity are the cancer the sport needs to eradicate.

But that's the point. They are far better to draw the line and try to eradicate going forward than try to do the impossible and pick on individuals from the past. Any one dare to mention the Merckx name, or any of the past greats? Fact and we all know it, the sport of cycling was completely tainted up to the recent past. If the authority cares to pick fights, then they'll virtually have to take on every one. As others have mentioned, taking out LA, then who's to say the next in line for the TdF title was not tainted? It's a hopeless case.

The only balancing message here is that the Yanks are just as big on doping as their Euro counterpart, but at a higher sophistication level.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby roller » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:49 pm

sogood wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Properly dealing with the dopers, the traffickers and those complicit in such actions, as well as coercion to dope, is very much relevant for the future.

All those involved in just this one case are all still currently involved in competing, directing, managing and/or aiding current athletes and teams. The ones found to have engaged in such activity are the cancer the sport needs to eradicate.

But that's the point. They are far better to draw the line and try to eradicate going forward than try to do the impossible and pick on individuals from the past. Any one dare to mention the Merckx name, or any of the past greats? Fact and we all know it, the sport of cycling was completely tainted up to the recent past. If the authority cares to pick fights, then they'll virtually have to take on every one. As others have mentioned, taking out LA, then who's to say the next in line for the TdF title was not tainted? It's a hopeless case.

The only balancing message here is that the Yanks are just as big on doping as their Euro counterpart, but at a higher sophistication level.


so let me see if i understand this, you want to say "let's draw a line in the sand. let's leave the past alone. let's only bust people from. . . . . . .now"




do you not realise if they were not pursuing lance/johan/dr ferrari and co. for their crimes committed in the distant past (of 2009-2011) then they would still be involved in the sport right now?

managing pro teams, managing under 23 teams? being someone young riders look up to?
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby sogood » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:23 pm

roller wrote:so let me see if i understand this, you want to say "let's draw a line in the sand. let's leave the past alone. let's only bust people from. . . . . . .now"

That's not what I said, but to say that the whole pro cycling fraternity is stuffed. Cleaning up LA now is but a show at this point. What's more important is going forward, how the governing bodies regulate the profession. At least there's now the blood passport screening mechanism, good until gene therapy takes hold.

Even now... that Robert Forstemann's thigh at the London Olympics. Any one care to explain how he got his thighs to be so abnormally big? As some says in LA's case, negative dope tests do not prove innocence.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Ross » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:49 am

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:33 am

sogood wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Properly dealing with the dopers, the traffickers and those complicit in such actions, as well as coercion to dope, is very much relevant for the future.

All those involved in just this one case are all still currently involved in competing, directing, managing and/or aiding current athletes and teams. The ones found to have engaged in such activity are the cancer the sport needs to eradicate.

But that's the point. They are far better to draw the line and try to eradicate going forward than try to do the impossible and pick on individuals from the past. Any one dare to mention the Merckx name, or any of the past greats? Fact and we all know it, the sport of cycling was completely tainted up to the recent past. If the authority cares to pick fights, then they'll virtually have to take on every one. As others have mentioned, taking out LA, then who's to say the next in line for the TdF title was not tainted? It's a hopeless case.

The only balancing message here is that the Yanks are just as big on doping as their Euro counterpart, but at a higher sophistication level.


I did not read your original statement to be solely about the issue of re-assigning who won past races.

So given that that's what you were solely referring to, then the line on that has already been drawn for us and the rules pertaining to the re-awarding/assigning of titles are clearly detailed in the WADA code.

For straight forward "doping only" offences, then the present rule is there is an 8 year limitation on removing a rider's name from the results sheet. However, since LA has been found to have done a lot more than just dope (i.e. trafficking, cover up, coercion), then that limitation is backdated accordingly (as per the rules).

The rules that were in place for Merckx were different, and even if we apply the current rules, it would be moot, as is would be for Vaughters, or Riis for example since the limitation period has expired.

Whether we consider the rules on that need changing is another matter (since it's clear that the awarding of a titles goes to an acknowledged doper, but one who has past the limitation period). We may not like it, but that's the current rules.

So what I am saying is that the line has already been drawn for us (as is the line on what constitutes doping has been drawn for us).
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:18 am

Regarding a clean slate and starting again, on the one hand, the whole Lance Armstrong saga is a bit of a circus, on the other it sets a clear signale to other riders that there can be serious consequences and even for riders (athletes) who are years ahead of doping controls, if there is a chance that you can be caught in the future, it makes you think about this choice.

Sure, improved testing and faster convictions would help rather than the ongoing limbo that has made it painful for everyone involved.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby RonK » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:36 am

And if a line is drawn, will it be only to the benefit of Armstrong, or will all other dopers prior to the cut off point be absolved and reinstated?
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Chuck » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:40 pm

sogood wrote:
They are far better to draw the line and try to eradicate going forward than try to do the impossible and pick on individuals from the past.


Not impossible as this case and many others have shown. Eradicate sure, that's what USADA are attempting to do. But I don't think you're likely to get Bruyneel, Ferrari, Armstrong and the other co accused to leave the sport by asking them nicely.

sogood wrote:
If the authority cares to pick fights, then they'll virtually have to take on every one.


USADA have shown consistently that where there is evidence they will proceed or assist in the process to prosecute (see Jones, Landis, Hamilton etc). It's not about "picking fights" or "picking on individuals" that is PR spin.

sogood wrote:
It's a hopeless case.


Difficult yes but not hopeless. Some of the biggest names have fallen and now the biggest may fall (depending on what WADA and the UCI choose to do). The message is clear, we will catch up and when we do it doesn't matter how big a star you are you're not too big to fall.

sogood wrote:As others have mentioned, taking out LA, then who's to say the next in line for the TdF title was not tainted?


The quest to clean up the sport is more important than the need to find a winner that is not tainted and it's certainly no reason to turn a blind eye to evidence of systematic doping, distribution, coercion and complicity.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Ross » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:07 pm

http://bicycling.com/blogs/fitchick/201 ... rom-lance/

I found this article quite interesting. People tend to forget stuff like this about LA with all the latest doping scandals coming to light.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby RonK » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:50 pm

Ross wrote:I found this article quite interesting. People tend to forget stuff like this about LA with all the latest doping scandals coming to light.

Ahhh yes - the romanticising of LA. Isn't he just such a lovely fella?

Article? Isn't that a private blog?
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Ross » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:36 pm

RonK wrote:
Ross wrote:I found this article quite interesting. People tend to forget stuff like this about LA with all the latest doping scandals coming to light.

Ahhh yes - the romanticising of LA. Isn't he just such a lovely fella?

Article? Isn't that a private blog?


Blog/article, same $h!t different smell. Call it whatever you want.

I don't think the authour of the blog (or me) is saying LA is a "lovely fellow", just pointing out that dope or no dope he was very meticulous with the way he trained and raced. Every facet of his life connected to cycling was measured and analysed. It's not like he sat on the couch for 10 months of the year scoffing cheeseburgers and then when June came along decided to have some "special" vitamins and then smash the worlds greatest riders in the alps of France.

Just to get back on a bike and race, even at local club level let alone at the highest level of competive cycling in the world, would be an incredible acheivement for someone that nearly died of Cancer. Sure he was most likely taking PEDs and/or doing dodgy stuff with blood transfusions but it's not like average cyclists like you or I could do the same thing and suddenly go and win the TdF (sorry I generalised there about you without knowing the first thing about you).
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby RonK » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:47 pm

Ross wrote:It's not like he sat on the couch for 10 months of the year scoffing cheeseburgers and then when June came along decided to have some "special" vitamins and then smash the worlds greatest riders in the alps of France.

So do we presume then that the world's greatest riders(who are not so special) did sit on the couch for 10 months of the year scoffing cheeseburgers , with an occasional bike ride for training (as long as it wasn't raining).

Guess that's why he beat 'em.

Personally I would've thought they'd be out training their little butts off too...
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:53 pm

RonK wrote:
Ross wrote:It's not like he sat on the couch for 10 months of the year scoffing cheeseburgers and then when June came along decided to have some "special" vitamins and then smash the worlds greatest riders in the alps of France.

So do we presume then that the world's greatest riders(who are not so special) did sit on the couch for 10 months of the year scoffing cheeseburgers , with an occasional bike ride for training (as long as it wasn't raining).

Guess that's why he beat 'em.

Personally I would've thought they'd be out training their little butts off too...


Although, that's pretty much what people said Ullrich did during his career.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby RonK » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:08 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:Although, that's pretty much what people said Ullrich did during his career.

Ah, so perhaps he did have some of those "special vitamins", same as LA...
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:19 pm

RonK wrote:
bigfriendlyvegan wrote:Although, that's pretty much what people said Ullrich did during his career.

Ah, so perhaps he did have some of those "special vitamins", same as LA...


Different vitamin pills, he got done.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby RonK » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:49 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:
RonK wrote:
bigfriendlyvegan wrote:Although, that's pretty much what people said Ullrich did during his career.

Ah, so perhaps he did have some of those "special vitamins", same as LA...


Different vitamin pills, he got done.

No he didn't. Just like LA he was tested many times and didn't fail any of them.
He was found guilty if blood doping on evidence which did not include a positive test.

Just like LA.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby RonK » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:07 pm

A common argument put forward in this thread is that LA's competitors "were all doing it".

Here's an interesting analysis that argues (quite soundly I think), that LA could not have won unless he was doing it too...
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby alex » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:48 am

'they' were not all paying off the UCI or building a 'charity' to increase their own personal wealth and awareness of themselves.

armstrong is a disgusting individual. a narcissist and a sociopath.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:38 am

Ross wrote:I don't think the authour of the blog (or me) is saying LA is a "lovely fellow", just pointing out that dope or no dope he was very meticulous with the way he trained and raced. Every facet of his life connected to cycling was measured and analysed. It's not like he sat on the couch for 10 months of the year scoffing cheeseburgers and then when June came along decided to have some "special" vitamins and then smash the worlds greatest riders in the alps of France.


There are some criminals who are meticulous with their planning as well. Doesn't make what they do right, or that we should admire them for using their mental skills for ill gotten gains.

The medical doping program he was using enabled him to train harder than others. It's a double benefit. When you run an organised doping ring and cover up years of lies and deception, you need to be meticulous.

Ross wrote:Just to get back on a bike and race, even at local club level let alone at the highest level of competive cycling in the world, would be an incredible acheivement for someone that nearly died of Cancer. Sure he was most likely taking PEDs and/or doing dodgy stuff with blood transfusions but it's not like average cyclists like you or I could do the same thing and suddenly go and win the TdF (sorry I generalised there about you without knowing the first thing about you).


But no one who is average is ever going to win the TdF, let alone ride pro level. Not sure what the point is?

Obviously he had some genetic gifts, they all do at that level. But he did "benefit" from a systematic doping program since he was 18 years old (suggest reading up on when Carmichael was running the USAC "coaching" program), and there is reason to consider this was a factor in getting cancer to start with. How people like Carmichael are permitted to still be involved with the sport makes me sick.


There are many people who have survived cancer and come back to ride/race/win. I've coached one to a world masters championship win. They don't need the Armstrong myth for inspiration. They are their own inspiration.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:56 am

Ross wrote:http://news.runnersworld.com/2012/09/07/lance-armstrong-denied-entry-to-chicago-marathon/?cm_mmc=Twitter-_-RunnersWorld-_-Content-News-_-LanceDenied

Amazing that Lance seems to have a lot of support from the (albeit uninformed) running community.


“USADA's unprecedented and irrational efforts to strong-arm local race organizers and prevent Lance from participating in Team Livestrong fundraising is just the latest chapter in USADA's never-ending vendetta against Lance,” said Bill Stapleton, Armstrong’s agent, in a released statement.
I doubt very much that USADA would have needed to press any buttons whatsoever so this, to me, looks consistent with ArmstrongInc spin. Again. Big bad bogey/vendetta/personal/conspiracy/...

The article does demonstrate how the ban will adversely affect future fundraising. However blind Freddy could have seen this being the case.Which begs the question then "Why pull the pin at the stage he did?" Allegedly to concentrate on Livestrong, presumably to the advantage of LIvestrong.

Sorry Lance, it seems that IF YOU WERE NOT GOING TO BE FOUND GUILTY then what you owed to LIvestrong was NOT to giveup the battle to clear your name.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:38 am

In fact the USA Track and Field themselves may have made approach to USADA on the repercussions to their own sport.
"USATF is a signatory to the WADA code, and we confirmed with the US Anti-Doping Agency that Mr Armstrong's ban extends to track and field, road running and all of our sport's disciplines."


I suppose though that because sporting peak bodies are now (finally!) singing from the same song sheet, that this is just fodder to the notion that everyone everywhere is is a bully involved in a conspiracy against Lance Armstrong.

And nothing whatsoever to do with the concept that perhaps sports bodies do not like the idea of drugs winning events. Or that their sport has a compelling need to sign up to the WADA code ("wanna stay in the olympics sport?").

Or that others who participate in sport do not like the idea of competing against an unfair advantage.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby greyhoundtom » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:25 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:<Snip>
Obviously he had some genetic gifts, they all do at that level. But he did "benefit" from a systematic doping program since he was 18 years old (suggest reading up on when Carmichael was running the USAC "coaching" program), and there is reason to consider this was a factor in getting cancer to start with. How people like Carmichael are permitted to still be involved with the sport makes me sick.<Snip>

There is no doubt that LA, like many cyclists and athletes in general at that time, was exposed to PED’s as a youngster by his coach, and looking at the timeline involved, the most likely PED first used would have been Testosterone, as this not only increases lean fast twitch muscle tissue but also increases the desire and ability to train harder, and was freely available at that time.

However while the use of Testosterone increases the chance of liver damage, there is no evidence to suggest that it directly causes either testicular or prostate cancer even with long term use, so to say that the use of PED’s most likely caused LA’s cancer in the first place, is a long bow to draw.......................and yes the fact that those that were involved, including LA himself, in the promotion of the use of PED’s are still being employed in cycling at various levels is a major concern.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby JustJames » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:45 pm

I'm intrigued that the LA era is being viewed as a particularly tainted era.

My recollection is that after the "Festina Affair", which was in '98 IIRC, UCI suddenly got extremely serious about doping. LA was supposed to be the Shining Hope, showing what could be done riding clean, and the people he was riding with were also supposedly clean. Subject of course to the fact that there was no (easy?) test for EPO.

Makes me wonder if, in 10 years' time we won't be looking back at Wiggo (or next year's winner), after his 9th TdF title and saying "well, of course he was no better than the rest".
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby vander » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:08 pm

JustJames wrote:Makes me wonder if, in 10 years' time we won't be looking back at Wiggo (or next year's winner), after his 9th TdF title and saying "well, of course he was no better than the rest".


People already are. They are also questioning whether the UCI are now treating his blood tests like Lances ie he wont ever test positive cause they wont let it happen.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby wombatK » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:10 pm

JustJames wrote:Makes me wonder if, in 10 years' time we won't be looking back at Wiggo (or next year's winner),
after his 9th TdF title and saying "well, of course he was no better than the rest".

Part of what raised questions about LA was that people could review his climbing performance against others in the
peloton using real-time gps + powermeter data, and conclude that he was 5% faster than "the rest" on climbs.

The UCI closed the peephole that put such data on view (or was it a loophole) and now prevents publication of such data.

And maybe now anyone still thinking they can get away with cheating will be cute enough to climb only 1% or 2% faster
than the rest, so that it won't look so incredible.

And they won't raise suspicions by beating the best time-trial specialist who aren't GC contenders by a huge margin,
while also out-climbing the best climbing specialists etc.,. by such a margin that preventing publication of the data is
necessary to maintain the pretense.

Wiggo did not raise such suspicions, so it will be a total surprise should
future tests put him in the defrauders camp.
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