Unusual bike fit problem
- PawPaw
- Posts: 1244
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:53 am
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby PawPaw » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:12 am
You have attributed your 'back spasm' to a big knot in your gluts. Explain your reasoning for a g.max issue causing back spasm. Which muscles are spasming and at what vertebral levels, and on which side/s? I'll stick with your back spasm being due to discal or spinal stenosis.
I don't agree G.max/med or their fascia could impact the sciatic nerve, even with congenital variation - review their anatomical relationship. TLL, you might think one muscle was the cause of all your months of suffering, but that is highly unlikely - more likely you had a disc issue that gradually settled, but was the original cause of a muscle getting dysfunctional.
Neil, how long are you sustaining the slump test for? How long are the rides that result in back spasm and how long til spasm?
How long can you hold the plank for? and do you get back pain with it? Zep, planks help unmask disc issues.
Re your knee and toe alignment, TTers tend to tib tube over toes, roadies over pedal axle.
If you had a good bike fit, you'd be aware of your knee and back angles, which are?
As for standard of MS physios, yes there's great variance in quality of ax, but there's greater variance in the consistency and clarity clients describe symptoms.
Many less straight forward conditions would require several one on one hour long appointments, and a patient who complies with advice given. ha. FUrther, clients tend to shop around, and lots of chronic conditions tend to resolve over time. whoever is treating at the time of resolution gets the kudos.
- toolonglegs
- Posts: 15463
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
- Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby toolonglegs » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:42 am
Yes I had a nerve issue in my back caused by a muscle problem... one problem turned into many. But the root cause was always the same.PawPaw wrote: TLL, you might think one muscle was the cause of all your months of suffering, but that is highly unlikely - more likely you had a disc issue that gradually settled, but was the original cause of a muscle getting dysfunctional.
- twizzle
- Posts: 6402
- Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
- Location: Highlands of Wales.
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby twizzle » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:50 am
Why? Do you know how long his arms are?ZepinAtor wrote:
A 100mm drop sounds excessive. If you already have your stem angled up & a large stack height then I would guess your frame is way too small.
Sent from my iThingy...
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
- ZepinAtor
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:46 pm
- Location: Brizzzzbane Everton Hillzzzz
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby ZepinAtor » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:34 am
I have no idea how long his arms are, but reading back through his comments alerts me to the fact that he has long legs & for some strange reason is trying to shove his seat very forward ? He has also stated that his stem is angled up & has a comparatively lower position than all of his mates.A short femur would "generally" have you wanting your seat forward & he has stated his legs are long for his height. All of my comments are generalisations going on the information presented to me by the OP.twizzle wrote:Why? Do you know how long his arms are?ZepinAtor wrote:
A 100mm drop sounds excessive. If you already have your stem angled up & a large stack height then I would guess your frame is way too small.
I would like to see a side on photo on a trainer pedalling under moderate force before I cast any more opinions into this somewhat mystifying thread.
-
- Posts: 1421
- Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:00 pm
- Location: W.A
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby Marty Moose » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:09 am
I would like to see a side on photo on a trainer pedalling under moderate force before I cast any more opinions into this somewhat mystifying thread.[/quote]
Now that's the best post here give us some pics.
I had a "computer fit" nice man good for ball parking your bike but he was not able to fix me knee issues in fact his set up have me quadriceps tendonitis now I've back to what I know and ex national riders input.
The cause ended up being the pedal axle on my Ultregra spd sl having 5mm lateral movement computer didn't pick this I did $240 for nothing. The computer fit "retul" does have its place but its not the final word.
Far as knee over your toes It'd be doing some of my own set back research. Sounds to me like you are to far forward of the bottom bracket.Read Steve Hogg's stuff as recommended, pay for for his pdf's they are a good read.
Sent from my MB526 using Tapatalk 2
-
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:28 pm
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby NeillS » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:22 am
The points about the computer fit are good actually, the guy didn't make mention of my long inseam measurement because he didn't measure it - we simply put the IR markers on my legs and went to the bike straight off. He did make mention of my ridiculously flexible ankles and excellent hip range which I already knew about.
I just realised I forgot to mention the frame size on my bike - it's got a 51.5cm top tube centre to centre, and the measurement from the top of the seat to the centre of the bottom bracket is currently 78cm as far as I can measure. Do these sound about right for a 175cm bloke with a 90cm inseam or way off? The cranks are 172.5mm by the way.
Last question - who can recommend a good human bike fit in inner melbourne? It will be interesting to see what they come up with versus what the machine told me!
-
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:28 pm
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby NeillS » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:26 am
I just measured my femur length as accurately as I could (not easy to do by yourself) and they are the same as far as I can tell. I have always felt "off" on the bike, like one leg is working harder than the other, but have never been able to figure out where it's coming from, and my hips are dead steady when I cycle so it's a bit of a mystery. I've even done side-to-side power testing with split lunges and single leg squats and can't find any major difference - if anything my bad leg has sometimes been slightly stronger than my good one. Weird.
- PawPaw
- Posts: 1244
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:53 am
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby PawPaw » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:45 am
TLL, I forget what muscle was the cause of your back pain and nerve problem....what were you told again, and what therapy fixed the problem?toolonglegs wrote:Yes I had a nerve issue in my back caused by a muscle problem... one problem turned into many. But the root cause was always the same.PawPaw wrote: TLL, you might think one muscle was the cause of all your months of suffering, but that is highly unlikely - more likely you had a disc issue that gradually settled, but was the original cause of a muscle getting dysfunctional.
Neil, thanks for clarifying where you're coming from.
-
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:47 pm
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby gabrielle260 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:54 am
I will post about it more in the 10k thread as part of my cycling holiday.
Good luck sorting out your problem!
Andrew
-
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:28 pm
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby NeillS » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:26 pm
Now my top tube length is 51.5 or 52cm if you measure centre to centre horizontal to the ground. BB-Saddle position recommended is around 82cm, mine is about 79cm..... top tube length is perhaps the most important and even that is telling me I need a bigger frame. What do you guys reckon?
-
- Posts: 1346
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
- Location: Earlwood
- Contact:
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby vander » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:02 pm
Too small I would say, what is your stem length (also important) you should have a slightly bigger bike but a small stem, I think. Im 181cm with 86cm inseam (so longer up top) and I am on a much bigger frame. I think you should be more around the 53-54cm option. 172.5 cranks should be fine.NeillS wrote:Thanks for the input everyone. Trying to diagnose a complicated biomechanical problem over the internet is completely useless so I won't try too hard in that regard. Also not going to enter a pissing contest over clinical skills.
I just realised I forgot to mention the frame size on my bike - it's got a 51.5cm top tube centre to centre, and the measurement from the top of the seat to the centre of the bottom bracket is currently 78cm as far as I can measure. Do these sound about right for a 175cm bloke with a 90cm inseam or way off? The cranks are 172.5mm by the way.
I also want to know how long the rides are before you start getting pain? Not just how long but what type what the week/month was like before that (including things other the cycling)? How long are you waiting till you go back to riding? What was your training like before? Any changes in shoes, saddle etc?
(AT) Paw Paw: I dont believe in plank as a clinical measure for core strength it is not very effective. Also saying disc or spinal stenosis is jumping to conclusions a bit. However I agree a g. max issue is very unlikely to cause back spasm.
(AT) Scott: Cheers
- twizzle
- Posts: 6402
- Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
- Location: Highlands of Wales.
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby twizzle » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:07 pm
No can see piccy, same issue as missing pic in first post? I use photobucket.NeillS wrote:Okay so I just plugged in my numbers to the competitive cyclist thingo and got this;
Now my top tube length is 51.5 or 52cm if you measure centre to centre horizontal to the ground. BB-Saddle position recommended is around 82cm, mine is about 79cm..... top tube length is perhaps the most important and even that is telling me I need a bigger frame. What do you guys reckon?
Sent from my iThingy...
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
- twizzle
- Posts: 6402
- Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
- Location: Highlands of Wales.
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby twizzle » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:16 pm
Small frames have slacker seat tube angle than big frames, it's bloody hard to get the seat far enough forwards when you have stacks of seat post. This also effectively shortens the TT length... and on and on. I ride ~7cm setback on a 'medium' TCR, with a flipped seat post and an inverted 110mm stem. And my drop is about 11cm...ZepinAtor wrote:I have no idea how long his arms are, but reading back through his comments alerts me to the fact that he has long legs & for some strange reason is trying to shove his seat very forward ? He has also stated that his stem is angled up & has a comparatively lower position than all of his mates.A short femur would "generally" have you wanting your seat forward & he has stated his legs are long for his height. All of my comments are generalisations going on the information presented to me by the OP.twizzle wrote:Why? Do you know how long his arms are?ZepinAtor wrote:
A 100mm drop sounds excessive. If you already have your stem angled up & a large stack height then I would guess your frame is way too small.
I would like to see a side on photo on a trainer pedalling under moderate force before I cast any more opinions into this somewhat mystifying thread.
He's an outlier, which is why I was interested in seeing the CC fit numbers, and like the OP, I get back pain if my saddle is further back... which is where I had it when Steve had a look back in Jan.
Sent from my iThingy...
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
-
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:28 pm
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby NeillS » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:50 pm
Bike setup;
Bike fit stats;
- ZepinAtor
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:46 pm
- Location: Brizzzzbane Everton Hillzzzz
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby ZepinAtor » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:22 pm
Not sure if I'm seeing this right as camera angle could be dictating your saddle pointing down at the front. Sorry, but that bike looks all wrong from where I sit. Looks like somebody 6"3' has borrowed their mates 52cm bike. Then again I can't see you so who knows.
As Twizzle has stated with heaps of post showing bringing the saddle forward to accommodate the crank/knee/foot positioning is challenging.
A 54cm frame would have less post protruding, but then put your bars further out & higher. Perhaps with a 70mm stem this would work ? I'm taking stabs in the dark here & only passing on my opinions. 27 years cycling & 4 Retul bike fits does not make me an expert by any means.
I would repeat my coach's sentiments on here regards bike fits, but this is a family based audience which would not appreciate his views.
-
- Posts: 1346
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
- Location: Earlwood
- Contact:
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby vander » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:34 pm
I think based on the measurement by Competitive cyclist he may even get away with a 55-56cm frame with a 90 or so mm stem.ZepinAtor wrote:Wow, those are some challenging measurements. Very long inseam for somebody 174cm.
Not sure if I'm seeing this right as camera angle could be dictating your saddle pointing down at the front. Sorry, but that bike looks all wrong from where I sit. Looks like somebody 6"3' has borrowed their mates 52cm bike. Then again I can't see you so who knows.
As Twizzle has stated with heaps of post showing bringing the saddle forward to accommodate the crank/knee/foot positioning is challenging.
A 54cm frame would have less post protruding, but then put your bars further out & higher. Perhaps with a 70mm stem this would work ? I'm taking stabs in the dark here & only passing on my opinions. 27 years cycling & 4 Retul bike fits does not make me an expert by any means.
I would repeat my coach's sentiments on here regards bike fits, but this is a family based audience which would not appreciate his views.
- ZepinAtor
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:46 pm
- Location: Brizzzzbane Everton Hillzzzz
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby ZepinAtor » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:46 pm
Yes, you're probably correct, but I was being very conservative with my opinions & trying to tread lightly on the subject. Also not sure if the measurements being entered are accurate although considering the OP's back ground I would hope they are re:-inseam accuracy ?gander wrote:I think based on the measurement by Competitive cyclist he may even get away with a 55-56cm frame with a 90 or so mm stem.
-
- Posts: 418
- Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:44 pm
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby cpical » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:40 pm
He is a genetic anomaly!ZepinAtor wrote:Wow, those are some challenging measurements. Very long inseam for somebody 174cm. You're built like a Giraffe with a short neck. I'm the complete opposite with an inseam of 85cm & 187cm tall. I ride a 58cm compact with a 115mm stem. Saddle height is 754mm from c of BB to top of saddle. (920mm from top of pedal).
And he insists on running a 53/39 when his thighs are the size of my calves!ZepinAtor wrote: Not sure if I'm seeing this right as camera angle could be dictating your saddle pointing down at the front. Sorry, but that bike looks all wrong from where I sit. Looks like somebody 6"3' has borrowed their mates 52cm bike. Then again I can't see you so who knows.
This morning he was playing playing with his saddle height, just like E Merckx used to do while racing.
-
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:28 pm
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby NeillS » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:40 pm
The photo is a bit deceiving in a few ways - the bike is angled down at the front a bit and the arione saddle has a curve at the rear which makes it look pointed down at the front. If I click it back onto the next "notch" on the adjuster it points up slightly, but that puts pressure on my nether regions and it feels much more natural with it in that position.
I've borrowed my mate's mag trainer and I'm going to mess around with some motion capture software this evening and see what I can come up with. I rode yesterday and moved the saddle forwards and upwards again (slightly) which pretty much removed all my left glute soreness, woohoo! But then I rode again this morning and after 40km my right knee started hurting - whilst the left hip was perfect. So I'm certain I've got some weird assymmetry but I can't spot it yet. Perhaps something will show up on the video that the bike fit people can't see..... I'll report back with results!
-
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:28 pm
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby NeillS » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:42 pm
-
- Posts: 418
- Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:44 pm
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby cpical » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:30 pm
NeillS wrote:compacts are for little girls and french men!
I see, I see!
- ZepinAtor
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:46 pm
- Location: Brizzzzbane Everton Hillzzzz
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby ZepinAtor » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:07 pm
Maybe try removing your stilettos next time.NeillS wrote:Thanks man, yep the inseam measurement is 89cm or 90cm, crazy hey!
- twizzle
- Posts: 6402
- Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
- Location: Highlands of Wales.
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby twizzle » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:08 pm
I've moved more forwards now, but I also feel fairly balanced with my current setback, so perhaps it was a bar position problem that had me too far back. It was about 10cm earlier this year, but caused major back pain when I set up my 'cross frame. I literally had to get off the bike every 45 mins. Then I found my TCR to also hurt, when 6 months prior it was comfortable.
I also have long pedal axles, 6mm of spacers under the left shoe, plates to allow the cleats further back... it never ends. Losing 12kg since Chrissy has changed things as well.
Edit: I'd get rid of that seat post and put a micro-adjust in. Hmmmm.... Thompson Elite... 410mm. Or maybe the 330mm.
Sent from my iThingy.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
-
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:28 pm
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby NeillS » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:56 pm
- barefoot
- Posts: 1203
- Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:05 am
- Location: Ballarat
Re: Unusual bike fit problem
Postby barefoot » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:07 am
I immediately mistrust any fitment "rules of thumb" that use the nose of the saddle as a datum. Unless you're routinely riding with the pointy end of your saddle inserted somewhere uncomfortable, the nose position is irrelevant - a shorter saddle would change your "fit" without changing your position at all.NeillS wrote:There is 7-8cm of setback using a plumb line from the front of the saddle to the centre of the crank arm. I took some video footage which I'll upload - found some interesting stuff which could explain my problems
I have the opposite fitment problem with similar outcomes - I have short arms and legs, which lead to me being more comfortable on a tall but short bike. I've seen before that long limbed people need similar... I guess optimal cockpit length must decrease with deviation from "normal" body proportions somehow, and we're on opposite sides of the downslope.
Anyway, as a fellow short-bike rider, the first thing that I notice about your bike photo is the setback on your seatpost. No wonder you can't get your saddle far enough forward. You also mention notchyness when adjusting angle - very typical of a 1-bolt post.
Others have already suggested a Thomson seatpost - I'll broaden that to recommending ANY two-bolt clamp-on-top post. Something that looks like this:
Swapping to one of them would immediately give you another ~40mm of forward adjustment on your saddle, if you need to go that far forward. For what it's worth, I have my saddles pushed as far forward as they will go, on clamp-on-top posts, on every one of my bikes.
Saddle angle definitely does look funny, but as you say, the bike is on an odd angle.
Your bars as as high as they will go... on that stem. Again, something I know a bit about. That's a very modest up-angle on your stem. Guessing at about 7 degrees. Stems can be had with up to about 40 degrees. Sure, extreme stems like these aren't fashionable, and will probably be heavy (they don't make ultra-light-weight components in fitment variants that are more likely to be used on a septagenarian's hybrid than on a go-fast race bike). You'll probably find them for sale as MTB parts, but they fit road bikes just the same. One of my road bikes, with a too-short steerer for more spacers, has a 100mm x 35dg up-angle stem, to get my bars high enough that I can reach them with my stumpy little T-rex arms. Another has a 65mm x 35dg on a big stack of spacers to get the bars up and back far enough.
To be honest, both could probably do with the bars being a bit closer/taller, but I'm really bumping up against the limits of adjustment by easily swappable components. You're still a long way from that limit. Trying a few stems and a zero-offset seatpost is cheaper than trying a new frame, and especially cheaper than getting the good people at Baum to build you a custom Ti frame to measurements that you've only guessed because you've never actually ridden a bike that fits like that.
tim
- General Australian Cycling Topics
- Info / announcements
- Buying a bike / parts
- General Cycling Discussion
- The Bike Shed
- Cycling Health
- Cycling Safety and Advocacy
- Women's Cycling
- Bike & Gear Reviews
- Cycling Trade
- Stolen Bikes
- Bicycle FAQs
- The Market Place
- Member to Member Bike and Gear Sales
- Want to Buy, Group Buy, Swap
- My Bikes or Gear Elsewhere
- Serious Biking
- Audax / Randonneuring
- Retro biking
- Commuting
- MTB
- Recumbents
- Fixed Gear/ Single Speed
- Track
- Electric Bicycles
- Cyclocross and Gravel Grinding
- Dragsters / Lowriders / Cruisers
- Children's Bikes
- Cargo Bikes and Utility Cycling
- Road Racing
- Road Biking
- Training
- Time Trial
- Triathlon
- International and National Tours and Events
- Cycle Touring
- Touring Australia
- Touring Overseas
- Touring Bikes and Equipment
- Australia
- Western Australia
- New South Wales
- Queensland
- South Australia
- Victoria
- ACT
- Tasmania
- Northern Territory
- Country & Regional
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users
- All times are UTC+10:00
- Top
- Delete cookies
About the Australian Cycling Forums
The Australian Cycling Forums is a welcoming community where you can ask questions and talk about the type of bikes and cycling topics you like.
Bicycles Network Australia
Forum Information
Connect with BNA
This website uses affiliate links to retail platforms including ebay, amazon, proviz and ribble.