Faster Climbing

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Faster Climbing

Postby ft_critical » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:22 pm

Hypothetical. I want to climb a 2km 5% climb, faster. This is the ‘tgt climb.’ Let's assume that I am already riding close to peak.

What
• So is sub threshold repeats the best plan?
• Or should I be doing strength, e.g., big gear, low cadence?
• Or 2/3 phase efforts moving from tempo up to max effort?
• High cadence?

Where
• On the tgt climb.
• On a longer and/or steeper climb.
• A shorter climb.

I understand the how often to train and the how many efforts part. I understand body weight, hydration and diet.
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by BNA » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:27 pm

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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:27 pm

If you are already near your peak ( are you? ) ...
- I wouldn't think sub-threshold repeats would help much... threshold repeats might.
- but I think VO2 level repeats would help more when in the final phase of your build ie; threshold ( hour power ) + 10-20%... 5 minute climb, roll down, repeat ( 3 to 5 times ) once or twice week.
- continue with building FTP
- lose more weight :D
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby vander » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:46 pm

What is a tgt climb?

What I find helps with climbing.
Big gear stuff (around 60 cadence for me due to bad knees)
Find the steepest climb you can (ie Bowen Mountain) and kill yourself on it regularly
Repeats repeats and more repeats.

For me a big part of the training was doing 100-120km solid then hitting the climb as hard as I could to simulate the end of race effort.

Really if you want to climb faster, then climb as much as you can, train it and you will get better at it. If you want to get better at max efforts up its best to do max efforts up it.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby ft_critical » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:22 pm

Thanks TLL and Vander

No specific climb, and I am in in good form. I am close to PB in most aspects including climbing.

I read an awesome comment:

When someone gets to the end of a race and they can't perform in the sprint they blame their sprint and thus work on that. When when actually the problem is that they aren't fit enough to come to the sprint fresh enough to be competitive.

So I totally get Vander's comment on putting in the miles then climbing.

But this was more about the specifics of improving and intensity. So I agree with TLL on VO2Max and still working on ftp.

Should I work on a shorter distance plus a harder climb? I can't just go harder on the target climb. So should I go for intensity and by doing that figure that it will allow better efforts on a longer climb?
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:37 pm

2kms (AT) 5% is about 4-5 minutes effort.
Do a VO2 effort day ( doesn't have to be on a climb all the time )... say 3 x 5min with in a 2 hour ride.
Next day when you are less fresh do more at tempo or FTP.
3rd Day 2 hours at Endurance
4th Off or Recovery
5th If you recover well repeat first 3 days.

That's roughly what I would do if I was near my peak... 2 days of VO2 and 2 of FTP would have you in top form pretty quick I would think.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby craigg » Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:15 pm

What's limiting you currently on the climb - are you at VO2Max or are you facing Lactate Threshold limits? Do you climb in or out of the saddle? In saddle is generally more efficient, but out of saddle gets you more outright power.

How is your climbing technique - are you constant speed/effort all the way up? Faster at the bottom and slowing as you climb? Do you select and hold a gear all the way up or are you changing down throughout the climb?
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby ft_critical » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:26 pm

So this was a hypothetical question about training, not about climbing. I could have asked the same about TTíng.

The question was how to get faster at a specific discipline where the distance was reasonably short. In sum: intensity - anaerobic or aerobic efforts; distance - less or more than the target?
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby vander » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:40 pm

ft_critical wrote:So this was a hypothetical question about training, not about climbing. I could have asked the same about TTíng.

The question was how to get faster at a specific discipline where the distance was reasonably short. In sum: intensity - anaerobic or aerobic efforts; distance - less or more than the target?


Typically I do it less on distance and more on time. If you think it will or want it to take say 10min then I would do 10min and shorter efforts. If you think it will take 1 hour usually 20min efforts are ok (or they are for me). Intensity will depend on the length of the effort. But you will probably need a mix of both aerobic and anaerobic efforts.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:17 am

ft_critical wrote:So this was a hypothetical question about training, not about climbing. I could have asked the same about TTíng.

The question was how to get faster at a specific discipline where the distance was reasonably short. In sum: intensity - anaerobic or aerobic efforts; distance - less or more than the target?

For a maximal effort in the 4-5 minute range going uphill, then speed will be a W/kg matter;

As for power > 80% of the energy demand will be supplied by aerobic metabolism, the majority of the balance from anaerobic glycolysis, so you will need to develop both for gains, however the dominant requirement will be for maximal aerobic power. Interval work focussing on that will be helpful, however don't discount improved sub-maximal aerobic capabilities (lactate threshold) as a major contributor to MAP.

The other key factor with climbing speed is weight.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby ft_critical » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:56 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:For a maximal effort in the 4-5 minute range going uphill, then speed will be a W/kg matter;

vander wrote:But you will probably need a mix of both aerobic and anaerobic efforts.


Thanks that is good advice.

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:the dominant requirement will be for maximal aerobic power.


This is what I thought and thanks for validating it with all your experience Alex - a little golden nugget of advice. I finally understand how to train properly, after 4yrs of racing :roll: .


You miss the break, you can't bridge to the break, your TT HR is higher than your competitors for the same speed, you get unhitched in the last 50m of the climb, you're blown away in the sprint.... etc. It is all a symptom of the same thing. Your Aerobic engine isn't big enough. No amount of intervals are going to help you if you can't make it to the decisive moment fresh.

Thanks again
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby fixedlegs2012 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:41 pm

Come to Tassie, you have no choice but to climb and get better at it! :D
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:23 pm

You miss the break (bad tactics :P ), you can't bridge to the break ( suffering from bad tactics ), your TT HR is higher than your competitors for the same speed (comparing your HR against others means nothing! ), you get unhitched in the last 50m of the climb ( yeah that sucks ), you're blown away in the sprint ( tactics, economy, 5 minute power, 1 minute power, maximum power ... lots of things ).... etc. It is all a symptom of the same thing. Your Aerobic engine isn't big enough ( mines pretty big... but so is the rolling chassis :oops: ... gotta work on that ). No amount of intervals are going to help you if you can't make it to the decisive moment fresh ( months of the right intervals will get you where you want to be... maybee not fresh but no one else will be either :) ).

Just toying with you... I have hardly had a well planned training program this year, the gains have been coming thick and fast with out needing to bother. But if I want to step back up next year I need to organize myself a bit better. Fly or die :D .
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby PawPaw » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:55 pm

It's an aerobic and power/wt ratio issue.

- the closer to 6% bodyfat the better.
- increase power and cycling muscle cross sectional area by including plyometric training and eccentric weight lifting.
- do your specific climb with 5-10 kg of extra weight.
- do 5 minute intervals at 100% effort, on the flats. IME, big effort is transferable between climbing and flat course.
- ensure you are not overtraining. reduce total km's which can catabolize lean tissue and rob you of power.
- ensure the rest of your life is optimized for health and physiological adaptation (early nights, quality low fat diet, minimal alcohol, etc)
- consider cross training to improve aerobic conditioning - swimming freestyle, and running.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby ft_critical » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:30 pm

Thanks Paw Paw, I work on most of those. Next year I will do more core and off bike strength.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby vander » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:55 pm

PawPaw wrote:It's an aerobic and power/wt ratio issue.

- increase power and cycling muscle cross sectional area by including plyometric training and eccentric weight lifting.
- ensure you are not overtraining. reduce total km's which can catabolize lean tissue and rob you of power.


Look at a lot of the A graders that do well in the hills and a lot of the pros (look at wiggans twigs). No real need to increase cross sectional area they are all pretty small. Low power is not often due to the maximum muscle strength (except maybe 1-5second power) as the amount of force the legs are putting out is relatively low. More often the problem is mitochondrial density and capillary density. Furthermore increasing muscle cross sectional area can have the added negative of moving the mitochondria further away for the capillaries increasing oxygen transfer time decreasing aerobic output. These are just some theories I have seen bantered around in research papers. Point still remain for aerobic gains your time is better off being on the bike. Worring about catabolising lean muscle is silly but overtraining is a serious problem, I would know. One thing that you missed with the diet is make sure you are consuming adequate amounts of iron, as low iron is a common problem with endurance atheletes.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby gururug » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:11 am

Put two bricks in a towel and throw it in a backpack for two weeks riding.

Take it off, Voila!...... faster climbing.

No joke.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby PawPaw » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:49 am

vander wrote:Look at a lot of the A graders that do well in the hills and a lot of the pros (look at wiggans twigs). No real need to increase cross sectional area they are all pretty small. Low power is not often due to the maximum muscle strength (except maybe 1-5second power) as the amount of force the legs are putting out is relatively low. More often the problem is mitochondrial density and capillary density. Furthermore increasing muscle cross sectional area can have the added negative of moving the mitochondria further away for the capillaries increasing oxygen transfer time decreasing aerobic output. These are just some theories I have seen bantered around in research papers. Point still remain for aerobic gains your time is better off being on the bike. Worring about catabolising lean muscle is silly but overtraining is a serious problem, I would know. One thing that you missed with the diet is make sure you are consuming adequate amounts of iron, as low iron is a common problem with endurance atheletes.


- Wiggins did a lot of time in the gym during his transition from track to TdF. The rest of Team Sky also does significant gym time.
- A Calorie deficit does catabolize lean tissue. There's nothing silly about it. The higher the wt loss rate, the higher lean tissue % loss, up to 35% of total wt lost.
- The theory that gym time to increase cross sectional mass moves mitochonrdria further from capillaries doesn't consider Team Sky's training regimes, which are AIS and Swimming Australia derived. These include year round low/high zone training; putated to optimize capillary sprouting throughout all muscle.
- Gym work to increase cross sectional mass is not going to bulk an endurance athlete up significantly. Resistance training is a more powerful anabolic stimulus than climbing, as indicated by testosterone/cortisol ratios. Gym work comprises 10-15% of total training time in Swimming Australia's development model.
- Any cyclist who thinks his/her aerobic conditioning has been optimized with lots of climbing, should go try a long hard run or swim. Aerobic conditioning involves adaptation of multiple systems. Stressing each unit individually, improves climbing performance, as is accepted by the "small gains" training approach.

Am happy to debate this with you Vander. I don't rely soley on the literature. You won't find Swimming Australia, the AIS, Cycling Australia, or the Australian Weightlifting Federation's intellectual capital there.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby vander » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:08 pm

PawPaw wrote:- Wiggins did a lot of time in the gym during his transition from track to TdF. The rest of Team Sky also does significant gym time.
- A Calorie deficit does catabolize lean tissue. There's nothing silly about it. The higher the wt loss rate, the higher lean tissue % loss, up to 35% of total wt lost.
- The theory that gym time to increase cross sectional mass moves mitochonrdria further from capillaries doesn't consider Team Sky's training regimes, which are AIS and Swimming Australia derived. These include year round low/high zone training; putated to optimize capillary sprouting throughout all muscle.
- Gym work to increase cross sectional mass is not going to bulk an endurance athlete up significantly. Resistance training is a more powerful anabolic stimulus than climbing, as indicated by testosterone/cortisol ratios. Gym work comprises 10-15% of total training time in Swimming Australia's development model.
- Any cyclist who thinks his/her aerobic conditioning has been optimized with lots of climbing, should go try a long hard run or swim. Aerobic conditioning involves adaptation of multiple systems. Stressing each unit individually, improves climbing performance, as is accepted by the "small gains" training approach.

Am happy to debate this with you Vander. I don't rely soley on the literature. You won't find Swimming Australia, the AIS, Cycling Australia, or the Australian Weightlifting Federation's intellectual capital there.

-Can you tell me where you hear Wiggans did time in the gym? I know he did for track but have not heard of him doing anything since and by the look of him I think he would run scared of a weight, even 5kg would crush him.
-Yes a calorie deficency does but just cause he is training doesnt mean he has to be calorie deficent. Additionally with apporpriate protien and amino acid levels the amount is decreased dramatically. I have also read somewhere (not sure where) and experienced myself a decrease in lean tissue increasing climbing performance purely because it was less weight to drag up the hills it had no effect on my power however which increased.
-Gym work may not bulk them up significantly (depends on the person but), but any gain in mass is more you have to drag up the hills and will the power gain be worth it, in many cases probably not (if there is any power gain at all). I will reiterate often it is not the persons strength that is stopping them from climbing well it is the aerobic fitness. Gym is very important for swimming im not debating that.
-For this point if you want to do stength training often you are better off doing big gear work as it is all about specificity, weight training doesnt neccesarily transfer to the bike and a lot of people say it doesnt.

I am saying all this as a cyclist who does do gym work. There are however pros and cons. Good for sprinting and track cycling not so good for climbing and long distance cycling. Another con is DOMS or muscle fatigue from a proper gym session that was robbing me of 1-2 days a week of intense training as I just could do it post weights. I personally would do it early season or off season when I do it as I find strength is maintained as long as you keep riding and then it doesnt interfere with your other training as much and it gives you time to loose the weight gained from the training before your target events.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:20 pm

PawPaw wrote:
vander wrote:Look at a lot of the A graders that do well in the hills and a lot of the pros (look at wiggans twigs). No real need to increase cross sectional area they are all pretty small. Low power is not often due to the maximum muscle strength (except maybe 1-5second power) as the amount of force the legs are putting out is relatively low. More often the problem is mitochondrial density and capillary density. Furthermore increasing muscle cross sectional area can have the added negative of moving the mitochondria further away for the capillaries increasing oxygen transfer time decreasing aerobic output. These are just some theories I have seen bantered around in research papers. Point still remain for aerobic gains your time is better off being on the bike. Worring about catabolising lean muscle is silly but overtraining is a serious problem, I would know. One thing that you missed with the diet is make sure you are consuming adequate amounts of iron, as low iron is a common problem with endurance atheletes.


- Wiggins did a lot of time in the gym during his transition from track to TdF. The rest of Team Sky also does significant gym time.
- A Calorie deficit does catabolize lean tissue. There's nothing silly about it. The higher the wt loss rate, the higher lean tissue % loss, up to 35% of total wt lost.
- The theory that gym time to increase cross sectional mass moves mitochonrdria further from capillaries doesn't consider Team Sky's training regimes, which are AIS and Swimming Australia derived. These include year round low/high zone training; putated to optimize capillary sprouting throughout all muscle.
- Gym work to increase cross sectional mass is not going to bulk an endurance athlete up significantly. Resistance training is a more powerful anabolic stimulus than climbing, as indicated by testosterone/cortisol ratios. Gym work comprises 10-15% of total training time in Swimming Australia's development model.
- Any cyclist who thinks his/her aerobic conditioning has been optimized with lots of climbing, should go try a long hard run or swim. Aerobic conditioning involves adaptation of multiple systems. Stressing each unit individually, improves climbing performance, as is accepted by the "small gains" training approach.

Am happy to debate this with you Vander. I don't rely soley on the literature. You won't find Swimming Australia, the AIS, Cycling Australia, or the Australian Weightlifting Federation's intellectual capital there.

1. you have Wiggins training program diary to validate that?
2. that's a factor of when weight loss occurs. if already very lean then it's possible, but usually you drop the muscle mass not needed (e.g upper body).
3. if you do gym work to increase x-sectional muscle mass, by definition that is bulking up. you can also gain such stimulus from sprint and standing start work on the bike (better and more specific)
4. Swimming and running are not cycling, they have different physiological demands. Yes the broad aerobic requirements are similar, but the way muscles are used is quite different.
5. Cyclists who want to climb faster don't give a rats left testicle about how fast they run/swim. The performance measure that matters is cycling W/kg.
6. The main change introduce to Sky/Wiggins brought about by Kerrigan was better planning of training and racing loads through the season, using a variation of the Bannister impulse/response model (otherwise known as the performance manager)
7. some of the "marginal gains" are red herrings tossed out to confuse as much as elucidate. Hot pants / special Mavic wheels anyone?
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby PawPaw » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:22 pm

vander wrote:-Can you tell me where you hear Wiggans did time in the gym? I know he did for track but have not heard of him doing anything since and by the look of him I think he would run scared of a weight, even 5kg would crush him.

There's many articles on the net referring to Kerrison and Sutton saying Wiggans and the team went back to the gym, to specifically work on core strength.
There's other articles of Wiggins saying he concentrated on explosive power in the lead up to 2012 TdF.
I cannot give you a web link to anything saying Kerrison has Team Sky doing n squats or y leg curls. But I can say Kerrison came through Australian rowing and swimming. His mentors through Swimming Australia were Bill Sweetenham and Ian King, whose coaching methods I am familiar with and squad members I've treated. I also have insight into Ken Woods coaching of the many Olympic medal winning Chinese swimmers under his care, and Swim Aust's development models. Explosive strength training is integral, as is controlling bodyfat. If you ever come to Brisbane, I'll take you to the gym where the Chinese swimmers work out.

-Yes a calorie deficency does but just cause he is training doesnt mean he has to be calorie deficent. Additionally with apporpriate protien and amino acid levels the amount is decreased dramatically. I have also read somewhere (not sure where) and experienced myself a decrease in lean tissue increasing climbing performance purely because it was less weight to drag up the hills it had no effect on my power however which increased.

Without a Calorie deficit, you don't lose weight. The definition of a Calorie deficit is to take less energy in than the body expends.
If you lost lean tissue and increased power, you had a lot of muscle mass not conditioned for strength endurance or explosive power. This is a common outcome in gym culture.
As I've alluded, I am not talking about doing strength work to bulk up significantly. It is about strengthening muscle for muscles that will improve cycling performance. Hip extensors and abductors, and core mm are difficult to strengthen optimally by cycling alone.


-Gym work may not bulk them up significantly (depends on the person but), but any gain in mass is more you have to drag up the hills and will the power gain be worth it, in many cases probably not (if there is any power gain at all). I will reiterate often it is not the persons strength that is stopping them from climbing well it is the aerobic fitness. Gym is very important for swimming im not debating that.

Explosive power was a key training goal for Team Sky. Wiggins has said that several times in interviews. Explosive power is a key competitive advantage in TdF climbs, to break from the competition. However, Wiggins has volunteered little detail on this training. It requires anaerobic and aerobic conditioning. Reduced muscle mass is a disadvantage for explosive power and strength endurance.


-For this point if you want to do stength training often you are better off doing big gear work as it is all about specificity, weight training doesnt neccesarily transfer to the bike and a lot of people say it doesnt.

The literature is not clear on this. There's studies that say strength training does improve even elite level athletes.


I am saying all this as a cyclist who does do gym work. There are however pros and cons. Good for sprinting and track cycling not so good for climbing and long distance cycling.

Well, not all gym work is the same. How often do you do plyometrics or PNF patterns with resistance? Do you use a cable pulley for cross body resistance?
If you consider what 99% of guys do with weights in a gym, it is to develop a particular look in the mirror.


Another con is DOMS or muscle fatigue from a proper gym session that was robbing me of 1-2 days a week of intense training as I just could do it post weights. I personally would do it early season or off season when I do it as I find strength is maintained as long as you keep riding and then it doesnt interfere with your other training as much and it gives you time to loose the weight gained from the training before your target events.


Where were you feeling DOMS?
I was talking to an elite cyclist today who just did the Goulburn Sydney Classic and is heading down to the Tour of Tasmania. He has DOMs most of the time due to his 700km/week training schedule.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby PawPaw » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:41 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:1. you have Wiggins training program diary to validate that?

neither of us have his training program. I take Kerrison's (not Kerrigan) and Sutton's word for it.

2. that's a factor of when weight loss occurs. if already very lean then it's possible, but usually you drop the muscle mass not needed (e.g upper body).

Wiggins body fat was reported at 4% for TdF 2012, which is extreme. It would be a very fine balancing act to maintain lean tissue and explosive power at that level.

3. if you do gym work to increase x-sectional muscle mass, by definition that is bulking up. you can also gain such stimulus from sprint and standing start work on the bike (better and more specific)

Bulking up by definition to those who use the term means adding a 'lot of' bulk.
What evidence are you basing 'better' on?

4. Swimming and running are not cycling, they have different physiological demands. Yes the broad aerobic requirements are similar, but the way muscles are used is quite different.
5. Cyclists who want to climb faster don't give a rats left testicle about how fast they run/swim. The performance measure that matters is cycling W/kg.

If you are going to bag cross and resistance training because it isn't 'specific', to be consistent you'll bag massage, flexibility, and core strength training; the latter being a focus of Kerrison's gym sessions.

6. The main change introduce to Sky/Wiggins brought about by Kerrigan was better planning of training and racing loads through the season, using a variation of the Bannister impulse/response model (otherwise known as the performance manager)

Rather, he introduced training and racing load models refined in swimming. The Bannister model is a monitoring tool to ensure the model is met.


7. some of the "marginal gains" are red herrings tossed out to confuse as much as elucidate. Hot pants / special Mavic wheels anyone?


But not all.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby vander » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:15 am

PawPaw wrote:There's many articles on the net referring to Kerrison and Sutton saying Wiggans and the team went back to the gym, to specifically work on core strength.
There's other articles of Wiggins saying he concentrated on explosive power in the lead up to 2012 TdF.
I cannot give you a web link to anything saying Kerrison has Team Sky doing n squats or y leg curls. But I can say Kerrison came through Australian rowing and swimming. His mentors through Swimming Australia were Bill Sweetenham and Ian King, whose coaching methods I am familiar with and squad members I've treated. I also have insight into Ken Woods coaching of the many Olympic medal winning Chinese swimmers under his care, and Swim Aust's development models. Explosive strength training is integral, as is controlling bodyfat. If you ever come to Brisbane, I'll take you to the gym where the Chinese swimmers work out.


Personally I have not seen any but I have seen a whole lot of other bs about stuff he has supposedly done to get gains which are basically lies. You keep talking about his explosive power he has almost none. He didnt win by it he won by deisiling up behind his team and then blowing everyone away in the TT maybe he just decided he was bored and thought he would do some pointless weights, who knows. They probably did it once and are now saying that is the cause of their benefit cluching at straws trying to come up with some reason for his performance gains. I hope they arent doing leg curls. If I was to coach a swimmer and a cyclist I would have very different training programs just cause they did something with swimmers doesnt mean they do it with cyclist.

Without a Calorie deficit, you don't lose weight. The definition of a Calorie deficit is to take less energy in than the body expends.
If you lost lean tissue and increased power, you had a lot of muscle mass not conditioned for strength endurance or explosive power. This is a common outcome in gym culture.
As I've alluded, I am not talking about doing strength work to bulk up significantly. It is about strengthening muscle for muscles that will improve cycling performance. Hip extensors and abductors, and core mm are difficult to strengthen optimally by cycling alone.

Ok I should of been specific here, a small calorie deficit with adequate nutrition (proteins and amino acid) and continual training of the targetted muscle it will be unlikely that you will loose much if any lean muscle tissue, unless you are at really low body fat percentages. Not sure how good hip abductors are for cycling line of pull for the extensor movement is, well, terrible. I wont even go into core strength apart from to say it is hyped up far too much. No I increased power because I was transfering my strength/power from gym lifts to applicable power on the bike. Also I was/am more concerned about aerobic endurance because if I get to the end of the race I go well regardless so its about getting to the end of the race. Though I did lose/still have lots of upper body muscle mass to loose as I can still bench 100kg which doesnt help me too much on the bike. Gym made me strong but it needs to have the appropriate work on the bike to make it usable but even then its not so good (if at all) for the aerobic power that the sport demands.


Explosive power was a key training goal for Team Sky. Wiggins has said that several times in interviews. Explosive power is a key competitive advantage in TdF climbs, to break from the competition. However, Wiggins has volunteered little detail on this training. It requires anaerobic and aerobic conditioning. Reduced muscle mass is a disadvantage for explosive power and strength endurance.

Explosive power and strength endurance.......He won by TTing. He kept a high cadence up the climbs and just burning people off. He did not show these attributes, and has barely all year. I still dont beleive strength and muscle mass are the limiters, for most they are redlining and then someone attacks and they cant up their pace due to their aerobic fitness not due to their explosive power, their isolated numbers are much higher then what they are putting out to go with moves on the climbs, surprise suprise its an endurance sport.

The literature is not clear on this. There's studies that say strength training does improve even elite level athletes.


Yes its not too clear. Most however say they are better off doing the extra training on the bike as the gains are negligable except for short term power outputs (although even for these its not crystal clear)..

Well, not all gym work is the same. How often do you do plyometrics or PNF patterns with resistance? Do you use a cable pulley for cross body resistance?
If you consider what 99% of guys do with weights in a gym, it is to develop a particular look in the mirror.


I barely do any of that, bad knees do not allow me to do plyometrics and there is no way to effectively use pulleys for what I want to train. I train the way you should train, squats, deadlifts, leg press etc. Low reps high weight. I train for absolute strength then look to develop power on the bike where it will be used. I contemplated olympic lifts but didnt have time for learning perfect technique before upping the weight for what I wanted to do. Not too big a fan of your normal core exercises, however I got to the stage of almost being able to planche (could not hold the position) just from muking around. I train my core more doing squats then any core exercise out.

Where were you feeling DOMS?
I was talking to an elite cyclist today who just did the Goulburn Sydney Classic and is heading down to the Tour of Tasmania. He has DOMs most of the time due to his 700km/week training schedule.


Exactly my point when I am training hard on the bike trying to do those big weeks I cant do it with the added fatigue of weights training. It takes a lot longer to recover from weights then what it does from cycling IMO.

I was listening to an interview with Sir Chris Hoy not long ago and he was saying even he has dropped most of his gym work out as he has found apart from squats most of it is just wasting his time and he is better off doing it on the bike, cant argue with his results. He also said even for a sprinter he can be too big despite only having to race 3laps (750m) that is a long way short of the 150-200km a day that road cycling demands with the added fun of hills.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby PawPaw » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:45 am

vander wrote:Exactly my point when I am training hard on the bike trying to do those big weeks I cant do it with the added fatigue of weights training. It takes a lot longer to recover from weights then what it does from cycling IMO.

I was listening to an interview with Sir Chris Hoy not long ago and he was saying even he has dropped most of his gym work out as he has found apart from squats most of it is just wasting his time and he is better off doing it on the bike, cant argue with his results. He also said even for a sprinter he can be too big despite only having to race 3laps (750m) that is a long way short of the 150-200km a day that road cycling demands with the added fun of hills.


I am not implying one has to do weights to continue ad infinitum to increase mm mass. For an amateur with previous unstructured training, initially, the goal could be csa and neuromotor gains, but then it would fall back to maintenance. Further, I don't think many realize how catabolic 6+ hrs/wk of race training is, no matter how tweaked your protein intake and timing.

Other reasons for non sport specific resistance training :
- preserve bone density to reduce fracture risk or seriousness during falls (upper limb, clavicle, ribs). Some could argue weight loss should include any level of bone density loss, but this would be medically irresponsible. Osteopenia is a well known issue for competitive cyclists.
- avoid adverse outcomes of moderate to severe muscle imbalance.
Doing 20-30 reps of upper limb push and pull resistance exercises are not going to 'bulk' one up, but will have benefits for maintaining bone density and avoiding neuromechanical issues.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby vander » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:23 pm

PawPaw wrote:I am not implying one has to do weights to continue ad infinitum to increase mm mass. For an amateur with previous unstructured training, initially, the goal could be csa and neuromotor gains, but then it would fall back to maintenance. Further, I don't think many realize how catabolic 6+ hrs/wk of race training is, no matter how tweaked your protein intake and timing.

Other reasons for non sport specific resistance training :
- preserve bone density to reduce fracture risk or seriousness during falls (upper limb, clavicle, ribs). Some could argue weight loss should include any level of bone density loss, but this would be medically irresponsible. Osteopenia is a well known issue for competitive cyclists.
- avoid adverse outcomes of moderate to severe muscle imbalance.
Doing 20-30 reps of upper limb push and pull resistance exercises are not going to 'bulk' one up, but will have benefits for maintaining bone density and avoiding neuromechanical issues.


Atfer a yeear of training I am still struggling to loose my upper body mass despite only having about a 6week gym period where I didnt do upper body. I have been doing more then 6 hours a week of training. Weight training for the goals your are looking for the increased strength and power done properly will end up increasing mm mass a lot, if the person eats properly as well.
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Re: Faster Climbing

Postby PawPaw » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:44 pm

vander wrote:Atfer a yeear of training I am still struggling to loose my upper body mass despite only having about a 6week gym period where I didnt do upper body. I have been doing more then 6 hours a week of training. Weight training for the goals your are looking for the increased strength and power done properly will end up increasing mm mass a lot, if the person eats properly as well.


Reasons for still struggling.
- your genetics dictate you carry more mm in the upper body than your current goal.
- you are unaware of how much upper BM you have already lost. have you recorded losses in chest and biceps circumferences?
- you are eating too much. generate a Calorie deficit half of which is LSD.
- simultaneously doing strength and endurance exercise has tighter limits than you seem to be suggesting:

"Interference of strength development by simultaneously training for strength and endurance"

Abstract
The purpose of this study was to determine how individuals adapt to a combination of strength and endurance training as compared to the adaptations produced by either strength or endurance training separately. There were three exercise groups: a strength group (S) that exercised 30–40 min·day–1, 5 days·week–1, an endurance group (E) that exercised 40 min·day–1, 6 days·week–1; and an S and E group that performed the same daily exercise regimens as the S and E groups. After 10 weeks of training, VO2 max increased approx. 25% when measured during bicycle exercise and 20% when measured during treadmill exercise in both E, and S and E groups. No increase in VO2 max was observed in the S group. There was a consistent rate of development of leg-strength by the S group throughout the training, whereas the E group did not show any appreciable gains in strength. The rate of strength improvement by the S and E group was similar to the S group for the first 7 weeks of training, but subsequently leveled off and declined during the 9th and 10th weeks. These findings demonstrate that simultaneously training for S and E will result in a reduced capacity to develop strength, but will not affect the magnitude of increase in VO2 max.
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