HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Xplora » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:43 pm

zero wrote:Basically its all an exercise in forum shopping by armstrong anyway.

And this might be completely true, but there is something DEEPLY wrong about shouting down an elected official who wants consideration of the situation where nonelected public officials have an enormous impact on the public sphere - especially when they have an evidence process (drug testing) that has uncovered nothing, just charging and convicting based on verbal testimony. Yes, that's important - but at face value, you couldn't bring the same kind of evidence to most other arenas. There needs to be a smoking gun... and when you can't prove there were any shots fired, except "I saw him fire the gun", that's a situation that deserves the attention of the US Senate/Congress.

Let's look at the alternative scenario. The USA clearly spends an ENORMOUS amount of money on sport, and has done so for decades. Surely the body that responsible for policing that should be held accountable for their actions, as public servants? Should politicians wilfully turn a blind eye to the incredible expense and probable waste of resources pursuing a dud case, when it is possible that other juicers are not being properly pursued? Or that all the funds spent on testing is being wasted, because they aren't using the evidence anyway? Do they have an appropriate process in place for these actions against sportsmen? (We are assuming that USADA has due diligence in place, and responsible decision makers running the place).
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by BNA » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:50 pm

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby RonK » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:50 pm

Xplora wrote:Let's look at the alternative scenario. The USA clearly spends an ENORMOUS amount of money on sport, and has done so for decades. Surely the body that responsible for policing that should be held accountable for their actions, as public servants? Should politicians wilfully turn a blind eye to the incredible expense and probable waste of resources pursuing a dud case, when it is possible that other juicers are not being properly pursued? Or that all the funds spent on testing is being wasted, because they aren't using the evidence anyway? Do they have an appropriate process in place for these actions against sportsmen? (We are assuming that USADA has due diligence in place, and responsible decision makers running the place).

Absolutely, and this should be conducted by an independent and impartial authority, such as the US Comptroller-General's office, and not as an exercise in political influence and interference such as Sen. Rubio is clearly attempting to exert.

Oh, and by the way, the USADA is not a government bureau, and its staff are not public servants.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby zero » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:42 pm

Xplora wrote:
zero wrote:Basically its all an exercise in forum shopping by armstrong anyway.

And this might be completely true, but there is something DEEPLY wrong about shouting down an elected official who wants consideration of the situation where nonelected public officials have an enormous impact on the public sphere - especially when they have an evidence process (drug testing) that has uncovered nothing, just charging and convicting based on verbal testimony.


Plenty has been found. IMO ever since armstrong B-samples have been determined to contain EPO, the USADA has pretty much been duty bound to continue investigating him. (note that b-samples can't be used for a case, without the a-samples - which prevents them being used as central evidence in a case). Couldn't be a credible DA if they didn't have an open case after that, and they couldn't be a credible DA if they weren't trying to link Hamiltons statements to other credible witnesses.



Yes, that's important - but at face value, you couldn't bring the same kind of evidence to most other arenas. There needs to be a smoking gun... and when you can't prove there were any shots fired, except "I saw him fire the gun", that's a situation that deserves the attention of the US Senate/Congress.



There is a difference in legal weighting between witness (I saw), vs hearsay (he said he saw). Witness evidence is usually the largest and most important body of evidence in criminal trials. Multiple credible witnesses is routinely enough to convict for anything including murder in Texas (ie death penalty).


Let's look at the alternative scenario. The USA clearly spends an ENORMOUS amount of money on sport, and has done so for decades. Surely the body that responsible for policing that should be held accountable for their actions, as public servants? Should politicians wilfully turn a blind eye to the incredible expense and probable waste of resources pursuing a dud case, when it is possible that other juicers are not being properly pursued? Or that all the funds spent on testing is being wasted, because they aren't using the evidence anyway? Do they have an appropriate process in place for these actions against sportsmen? (We are assuming that USADA has due diligence in place, and responsible decision makers running the place).


The whole congress decided to go this route, in a completely thorough way including drafting, finalising and debating an act to create USOC, and ensure that USOC had a relevant and reasonable strategy for meeting its DA obligations. IMO the strategy is correct, the agency that does testing should not be involved in promotion or administration. Failure to do that (UCI) is how you create the Armstrong situation in the first place.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby alex » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:35 pm

zero wrote:
There is a difference in legal weighting between witness (I saw), vs hearsay (he said he saw). Witness evidence is usually the largest and most important body of evidence in criminal trials. Multiple credible witnesses is routinely enough to convict for anything including murder in Texas (ie death penalty).



in west memphis hearsay is actually enough to put people in jail for life and issue a death penalty!
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:37 pm

The amount of money provided by the US Govt for USADA to do its job is not even a drop in the ocean compared to what is spent on sport in the USA. USADA receives not much more than ASADA does from the Australian govt.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Chuck » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:49 pm

Xplora wrote:And this might be completely true, but there is something DEEPLY wrong about shouting down an elected official who wants consideration of the situation where nonelected public officials have an enormous impact on the public sphere - especially when they have an evidence process (drug testing) that has uncovered nothing, just charging and convicting based on verbal testimony. Yes, that's important - but at face value, you couldn't bring the same kind of evidence to most other arenas. There needs to be a smoking gun... and when you can't prove there were any shots fired, except "I saw him fire the gun", that's a situation that deserves the attention of the US Senate/Congress.

Let's look at the alternative scenario. The USA clearly spends an ENORMOUS amount of money on sport, and has done so for decades. Surely the body that responsible for policing that should be held accountable for their actions, as public servants? Should politicians wilfully turn a blind eye to the incredible expense and probable waste of resources pursuing a dud case, when it is possible that other juicers are not being properly pursued? Or that all the funds spent on testing is being wasted, because they aren't using the evidence anyway? Do they have an appropriate process in place for these actions against sportsmen? (We are assuming that USADA has due diligence in place, and responsible decision makers running the place).


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Xplora » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:24 pm

Chuck wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It ain't perfect... don't get me wrong. But politics is how Government is run... and lobbying happens from a number of areas. Can't hate on people wanting to have things looked at by their elected officials.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Ross » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:40 am

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:12 am

Xplora wrote:
Chuck wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It ain't perfect... don't get me wrong. But politics is how Government is run... and lobbying happens from a number of areas. Can't hate on people wanting to have things looked at by their elected officials.

Sure, but your premise that the evidence based approach has revealed nothing is incorrect.

And often political pressure is designed to suppress evidence, not to reveal it. Which is why we have a separation of powers.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Xplora » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:07 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Xplora wrote:
Chuck wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It ain't perfect... don't get me wrong. But politics is how Government is run... and lobbying happens from a number of areas. Can't hate on people wanting to have things looked at by their elected officials.

Sure, but your premise that the evidence based approach has revealed nothing is incorrect.

And often political pressure is designed to suppress evidence, not to reveal it. Which is why we have a separation of powers.

My premise is simply that USADA are applying a dramatically different standard to what most would consider expected and reasonable. The senator is saying "hey wait a second, you tested this guy dozens of times with no positive A and B samples, found nothing, now you are going to destroy an American legacy because you have an agenda?"

It's a far from perfect process, either LA, USADA or the US Senate, or UCI or USOC etc etc... the whole thing sucks badly... but to the lay observer, it just doesn't seem right... and yes, separation of powers is correct... except the USADA is NOT a law unto itself, they have rules and guidelines and public opinion definitely supports LA in some areas. He hasn't been hung out to dry like Ben Johnson.... a lot more people than just me don't feel "right" about it. The Senator is right to ask the question "are USADA looking at this correctly".

He might be wrong. USADA might be bang on the money. But it's nuts to imply that a democratically elected representative isn't properly placed to question a publically funded agency simply because you agree with the agency.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby biker jk » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:02 pm

USADA will send Armstrong file to the UCI by the end of this month (Tygart interviewed in Le Equipe). Le Monde will tomorrow publish an interview with the French Sports Minister who calls for Armstrong's seven TDF victories to be revoked.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:56 pm

Xplora wrote:But it's nuts to imply that a democratically elected representative isn't properly placed to question a publically funded agency simply because you agree with the agency.


I would turn around your statement "simply because you agree with the agency" to "simply because they disagree with the agency." That is not a valid use of their power. There should be merit in their reasons.

No organisation likes to be have the heat applied even if they have little to be guilty of. And it distracts an organisation from doing it's job.

Police have rights to investigate me for suspected criminal activity. But to use those powers only out of spite because, for example, I exposed corrupt practices is a whole different matter. Their rights and obligatios do not extend there.

These representatives are threatening to apply heat because of the decision against Armstrong. That heat should have been applied already to their processes and finances if they were an issue. It is now an issue seemingly only because of Armstrong. By seeking it now they applying intimidation and reeks to me of spite, not of concern with other issues of governance, finance and process.

They have not mentioned the Armstrong case but if anyone thinks this just happened in the fullness of time and is unrelated then they are off with the fairies. One senator did flag it before the decision, though I would need some convincing that it is not about Armstrong. He did this a month after USADA had given Armstrong notice of the action but before Armstrong had been sanctioned (he was still in court denying USADAs right to investigate).
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:33 pm

Here is an interesting spin on the Armstrong affair and the senator's sudden interest in fairness. It is too long to post but it is worth a look at anyway as it cleverly parallels Armstrongs issues with another that gets no attention. It also tackles the claims that USADA does not have any juridiction over Armstrog because he only signed up to UCI, nt to USADA. And finds the claim lacking.

http://150wattsofawesome.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/open-letter-to-congressman-jim.html
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:45 pm

Without even reading it I don't see how that is possible... Lance would have had USA International license, then he automatically falls under the anti doping agency of that country... first prosecutions are always done by the National body, if the UCI, WADA etc don't agree then they can appeal like with the dodgy steak.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:02 pm

To be clear, the claim that is lacking merit wa Armstrongs, that the USADA did not have jurisdiction. The article discusses that and decides that Armstrongs argument is without merit. USADA does have merit.

Have a read anyway. I think that you will find it a fresh way of arguing some of the same tired not-so-old arguments.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Ross » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:34 pm

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby SeditionTrial » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:46 pm

I'm a bit dissatisfied with the unattributed leaks to venerable newspapers, do you think Joe Public will get a better look at the dossier against Lance once it's sent to UCI later this week? I do think he did it I just want public confirmation and sanctions ASAP. I read his book but have never been a fan and always disliked his apparent egotism and hubris.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby biker jk » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:33 am

USADA releases 202-page reasoned decision on Armstrong (the detailed evidence goes to over 1,000 pages). It includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders (11 former teamates of Armstrong, such as George Hincapie, Levi Leipheimer, Jonathon Vaughters who have confessed to doping and never failed a test, so that destroys the Armstrong retort about never testing positive implying he never doped). I like how Tygart in the report says USPS received ten of millions of dollars from taxpayers while running a doping conspiracy (take that Armstrong with your pathetic claims about USADA embarking on a taxpayer funded witch hunt).

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Ross » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:36 am

The long awaited report is out - over 200 pages

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9Yzclx ... w?sle=true
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:42 am

As others have suggested before, the "I'm over it, I am gonna get on with my life now and ignore it all" has immediately elicited a response from his laywer (read "mouthpiece in this era of where lawyers so often take on the role for high profile clients).

And I also note that the "500" tests that many have queired and that no-one has been able to justify is now "500 to 600".

The mouthpiece has labelled it a "one sided hatchet job". Well, we have been waiting for the other side to be put. Do your job mouthpiece, have your client step into the lion's den and give the other side of the story. It's not USADA that is stopping an alternate story from being told.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Chuck » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:48 am

UCI reaction should make for interesting reading :evil:
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby macca33 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:00 am

The fact that Armstrong's crew have decided not to contest the evidence - thus, avoiding all the scrutiny of an open and transparent hearing process says quite a lot.

Given the blind support of Armstrong throughout the world - which is evident in some posts within this thread (not being critical, simply pointing out that his history elicits substantial emotions amongst cyclists, cancer sufferers / families and the wider community) - the USADA would be drawing an incredibly long bow to so publicly condemn Armstrong (an American hero until now) - unless their case has plenty of merit.

Eyewitness testimony under oath is more than satisfactory and from all accounts, there are a multitude of persons citing the same diabolical story......in the absence of evidence to the contrary, of course it will be regarded as case proven.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Xplora » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:50 pm

macca33 wrote:The fact that Armstrong's crew have decided not to contest the evidence - thus, avoiding all the scrutiny of an open and transparent hearing process says quite a lot.

I think it's an admission that the damage is done. Lance could have taken the stand and sworn by his remaining left nut that every statement made was untrue, and perhaps had some evidence to back that up, and the damage would have been done. Courts and evidence are wonderful things, especially from discredited sources. A dingo apparently did a baby and it took 30 years to finally accept that story. It's an embarrassment to elite sport in general that it has come to this - if testing can be beaten, then you shouldn't ban something - because if you can't find a smoking gun or a bullet or a wound, then there is no crime to answer for - even when there is an incredibly strong suspicion that someone was shot.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby norbs » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:01 pm

What I would find hilarious is if they go after him for perjury and he gets done. Would live to see the Yellow Army try and rationalise that.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:18 pm

norbs wrote:What I would find hilarious is if they go after him for perjury and he gets done. Would live to see the Yellow Army try and rationalise that.


Give him the old Al Capone! The couldn't get him for anything else except...tax evasion. I can think of a dozen peripheral crimes he could now be guilty of.
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