Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

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Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby backofthebunch » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:34 pm

Hi peeps,

wanting to buy a roadie soon/ish

having a look and just wanna get my head around groupsets... comparing various brands and models and levels of components to ensure getting what I would consider a good deal..

Shimano:
Dura-Ace
Ultegra
105


Sram:
Red
Force
Rival

is this correct?

what is the difference with SRAM RED BLACK (Is it just the colour of components...)
I was pretty keen to get Ultegra level on Shimano or up.... what if it were SRAM?

I wanna ride a few to get a feel for my personal preference, but I mainly want assistance in just confirming the levels of each brand.
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by BNA » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:26 pm

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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby minez01 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:26 pm

You are basically correct. I suppose Di2 would be above standard dura ace (in terms of cost, at least) and Ultegra electronic Ui2 would fit somewhere in between standard Ultegra and Dura Ace.

From memory, there is no difference between SRAM red black and the standard Red. But you do have all the hierarchies correct. In terms of what you want/need, just go test ride a shimano and a sram bicycle - I dare say you will be able to tell immediately which you prefer to the other (I know I did). Main differences probably being shifting action and shifter size/shape.
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby JustJames » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:22 am

If you're starting with a blank page, is there any reason why you exclude Campagnolo from consideration?
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby backofthebunch » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:15 pm

Thanks minez1.

James, every bike I've looked at in my price range has either SRAM or Shimano on it, haven't seen any campag.
wouldn't rule anything out, though the others seem more common which possibly has it's benefits?
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby __PG__ » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:32 pm

backofthebunch wrote:what is the difference with SRAM RED BLACK (Is it just the colour of components...)

The original SRAM Red was created in 2008 (or 2009?). It was a mainly silver groupset. In 2011 they made a 'black version', the only difference is in the colour.

Take note, the new model SRAM Red (often denoted as 2012 or 2013 SRAM Red) is a new generation of groupset that is almost completely new. The SRAM Red 'Black' refers to the older generation.

The new SRAM Force (denoted as 2013/2014 model) is essentially SRAM Red 'Black' with different stickers.
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby MarkG » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:30 pm

New Sram Red has updated front der too.
Apparently fixes the flex etc people experienced running the previous versions and why some chose to use a Force FD which was steel and not titanium..
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby tommymcguck » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:00 pm

Definitely try both and see which you prefer, it will be pretty clear. For me, it was SRAM all the way.

My opinion (without actually trying them all) on the comparisons/levels between the two would be this (from best downward)

SRAM Red
Shim Dura ace
SRAM Force
Shim Ultegra
SRAM Rival
Shim 105

Of course these are just mechanical groups, you'd need to try electronic to see if it's for you or not.

Also SRAM Red 2012/13 is a huge improvement over the previous Red from the small amount of test rides I have done.
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby Rex Chan » Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:53 pm

Are you new to road cycling? If so (like me), I would recommend spending only around $1000 on the actual bike (Tiagra/105, alum frame levels). I have not ridden the more expensive groups, but have found a noticable difference in a clean vs dirty driveline. This suggests to me that a clean and well tuned driveline is much more important than how expensive/light/precise it is. Since spending $900 on a bike (Orbea with Tiagra), I've spent more than double that on other stuff (clothing, accessories, etc) that actually has much bigger impact on how fun/comfortable it is to ride.

I was having a look through the "Money Pits" thread, and don't understand the logic of spending more than $2k on a bike, but only $50 for shorts+jersey - I like my $50 Sportwool Torms a lot more than synthetic $25 jerseys, and Torm is the low end of Sportwool (Rapha, Road Holland, Shutt VR). Also, "upgrading" from $20 T7 shorts to some $80 Sugoi RS bibs and $150 Assos bibs.

When I was getting my first road bike, I agonised over which groupset to get. Having gone through it - just make sure you're getting an ok deal (value wise), but I just chose on looks in the end. I'm not fit/fast enough to notice the difference.

If you're an experienced roadie, then you'll already know all this (and may very well disagree... :))
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby Bentnose » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:46 pm

What about SRAM Apex, some people say it is superior to 105.
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby backofthebunch » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:20 am

Rex Chan wrote:Are you new to road cycling? If so (like me), I would recommend spending only around $1000 on the actual bike (Tiagra/105, alum frame levels). I have not ridden the more expensive groups, but have found a noticable difference in a clean vs dirty driveline. This suggests to me that a clean and well tuned driveline is much more important than how expensive/light/precise it is. Since spending $900 on a bike (Orbea with Tiagra), I've spent more than double that on other stuff (clothing, accessories, etc) that actually has much bigger impact on how fun/comfortable it is to ride.

I was having a look through the "Money Pits" thread, and don't understand the logic of spending more than $2k on a bike, but only $50 for shorts+jersey - I like my $50 Sportwool Torms a lot more than synthetic $25 jerseys, and Torm is the low end of Sportwool (Rapha, Road Holland, Shutt VR). Also, "upgrading" from $20 T7 shorts to some $80 Sugoi RS bibs and $150 Assos bibs.

When I was getting my first road bike, I agonised over which groupset to get. Having gone through it - just make sure you're getting an ok deal (value wise), but I just chose on looks in the end. I'm not fit/fast enough to notice the difference.

If you're an experienced roadie, then you'll already know all this (and may very well disagree... :))

I have not owned a road bike, however have been doing alot of miles on my single speed and over the last few years built up a bit of a collection of clothing and accessories (bibs / jerseys / gloves / pumps / spare tubes etc).
I am quite competitive and would like to get into some crit racing in the future, so I want a road bike that I can use for this without having to upgrade too heavily.
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby jimsheedy » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:06 pm

tommymcguck wrote:Definitely try both and see which you prefer, it will be pretty clear. For me, it was SRAM all the way.

My opinion (without actually trying them all) on the comparisons/levels between the two would be this (from best downward)

SRAM Red
Shim Dura ace
SRAM Force
Shim Ultegra
SRAM Rival
Shim 105

Of course these are just mechanical groups, you'd need to try electronic to see if it's for you or not.

Also SRAM Red 2012/13 is a huge improvement over the previous Red from the small amount of test rides I have done.




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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby Rex Chan » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:36 pm

backofthebunch wrote:
Rex Chan wrote:Are you new to road cycling? If so (like me), I would recommend spending only around $1000 on the actual bike (Tiagra/105, alum frame levels). I have not ridden the more expensive groups, but have found a noticable difference in a clean vs dirty driveline. This suggests to me that a clean and well tuned driveline is much more important than how expensive/light/precise it is. Since spending $900 on a bike (Orbea with Tiagra), I've spent more than double that on other stuff (clothing, accessories, etc) that actually has much bigger impact on how fun/comfortable it is to ride.

I was having a look through the "Money Pits" thread, and don't understand the logic of spending more than $2k on a bike, but only $50 for shorts+jersey - I like my $50 Sportwool Torms a lot more than synthetic $25 jerseys, and Torm is the low end of Sportwool (Rapha, Road Holland, Shutt VR). Also, "upgrading" from $20 T7 shorts to some $80 Sugoi RS bibs and $150 Assos bibs.

When I was getting my first road bike, I agonised over which groupset to get. Having gone through it - just make sure you're getting an ok deal (value wise), but I just chose on looks in the end. I'm not fit/fast enough to notice the difference.

If you're an experienced roadie, then you'll already know all this (and may very well disagree... :))

I have not owned a road bike, however have been doing alot of miles on my single speed and over the last few years built up a bit of a collection of clothing and accessories (bibs / jerseys / gloves / pumps / spare tubes etc).
I am quite competitive and would like to get into some crit racing in the future, so I want a road bike that I can use for this without having to upgrade too heavily.


I have not been involved with crit racing at all, but have heard that it's quite aggressive, and crashes are common. In light of that, I wouldn't personally spend that much on a racing bike. From reading around, it seems as though 105 should be fine for racing on, and that means ~$1000 for the cheapest 105 bikes (Reid, Cell, Cycling Express). Not sure if they;re considered suitable for racing though. Branded 105 bikes are in the $1300+ range. In any case, have fun on your eventual road bike, and good luck in any races!
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby ftssjk » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:52 pm

Bentnose wrote:What about SRAM Apex, some people say it is superior to 105.


it is somewhat.
you'll have to try it.

personally i have rival and i love it :).

i tried ultegra and 105 at the store, but couldn't get over SRAMS double-tap.
Rival was at that sweet spot in regards to bang vs. buck.
IIrc the main differences between Rival and Force is just weight. There's a big difference between force and red though because of the shifters and the 2:1 throw or something, i forget hehe.
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby queequeg » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:51 am

ftssjk wrote:
Bentnose wrote:What about SRAM Apex, some people say it is superior to 105.


it is somewhat.
you'll have to try it.

personally i have rival and i love it :).

i tried ultegra and 105 at the store, but couldn't get over SRAMS double-tap.
Rival was at that sweet spot in regards to bang vs. buck.
IIrc the main differences between Rival and Force is just weight. There's a big difference between force and red though because of the shifters and the 2:1 throw or something, i forget hehe.


I have SRAM Apex on my CX commuter bike. Even though it is the bottom end of SRAMs Groupsets, I think it is at least on par with Tiagra, and quite possibly 105 (I have only used Tiagra & Ultegra/Dura-Ace, so I have no personal experience with 105). I like the Double-Tap shifting, but the front derailleur performance on the Apex is a bit twitchy. I have never been able to get the derailleur trim configured so that it works, and I am always throwing the chain off the big ring. The Dura-Ace shifters with Ultegra chainset on my road bike gives a perfect shift from small to big ring every time. The SRAM Apex with Apex Chainset is awful in comparison, and I suspect the front derailleur is most of the problem. Back to the workshop!
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby MREJ » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:17 pm

+1 re Apex FD. My wife had SRAM Apex until recently, and moved away from it due to persistent difficulty in shifting to the big ring. In my view it is a product that is not good enough on that dimension. She had Tiagra before that and no problems.
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby ftssjk » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:48 am

are you guys talking about the long throw on the left shifter?
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby antipodean » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:33 pm

queequeg wrote:I have SRAM Apex on my CX commuter bike. Even though it is the bottom end of SRAMs Groupsets, I think it is at least on par with Tiagra, and quite possibly 105 (I have only used Tiagra & Ultegra/Dura-Ace, so I have no personal experience with 105). I like the Double-Tap shifting, but the front derailleur performance on the Apex is a bit twitchy. I have never been able to get the derailleur trim configured so that it works, and I am always throwing the chain off the big ring. The Dura-Ace shifters with Ultegra chainset on my road bike gives a perfect shift from small to big ring every time. The SRAM Apex with Apex Chainset is awful in comparison, and I suspect the front derailleur is most of the problem. Back to the workshop!


If as you say Apex is on par with Tiagra and possibly 105 (even after having never ridden 105) how do you come to this conclusion, if the front shifting on Apex is total rubbish?
Did you have similar issues with Tiagra?
I would take Shimano any day over Sram, admittedly my only experience with Sram is via my 29ers X7/X9 groupset but to me the construction seems flimsy compared to Shimano.
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby Bentnose » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:31 pm

So is the poor SRAM front shifting only on Apex or does it afflict other levels of SRAM?
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby TDC » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:11 pm

antipodean wrote:
If as you say Apex is on par with Tiagra and possibly 105 (even after having never ridden 105) how do you come to this conclusion, if the front shifting on Apex is total rubbish?


Ha ha...because any shortcomings in SRAM are forgiven because it's not Shimano... :lol:
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby queequeg » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:08 pm

antipodean wrote:
queequeg wrote:I have SRAM Apex on my CX commuter bike. Even though it is the bottom end of SRAMs Groupsets, I think it is at least on par with Tiagra, and quite possibly 105 (I have only used Tiagra & Ultegra/Dura-Ace, so I have no personal experience with 105). I like the Double-Tap shifting, but the front derailleur performance on the Apex is a bit twitchy. I have never been able to get the derailleur trim configured so that it works, and I am always throwing the chain off the big ring. The Dura-Ace shifters with Ultegra chainset on my road bike gives a perfect shift from small to big ring every time. The SRAM Apex with Apex Chainset is awful in comparison, and I suspect the front derailleur is most of the problem. Back to the workshop!


If as you say Apex is on par with Tiagra and possibly 105 (even after having never ridden 105) how do you come to this conclusion, if the front shifting on Apex is total rubbish?
Did you have similar issues with Tiagra?
I would take Shimano any day over Sram, admittedly my only experience with Sram is via my 29ers X7/X9 groupset but to me the construction seems flimsy compared to Shimano.


The overall quality of the Apex Groupset is pretty good. The shifters/brake levers do not have a cheap feel, and the RD and Cranks are fine. However, the issues with the shifting performance is related to the FD. I think the cage on the Apex FD is too wide, so getting it positioned correctly is a nightmare. Limit screws too far in = can't shift to big ring, limit screws too far = chain getting thrown off big ring on a frequent basis.

I had Tiagra on my Hybrid, but only for the chain set. It is about the same build quality. The FD issue is either a design issue or I just got a poorly built unit.

I prefer Shimano, but my commuter has Apex so I can use the 11-32 cassette. It also came that way from the manufacturer :-)
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby silentbutdeadly » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:18 pm

Bentnose wrote:So is the poor SRAM front shifting only on Apex or does it afflict other levels of SRAM?


I run Rival on my flat cross bike and the front shift is spot on with an X7 shifter. However, the X5 shifter on the 29er would be flat out moving dead leaves even with the assistance of a strong breeze let alone the FD - the less said about X5 the better. Hopefully (if Jenson comes to the party) I'll move the X7 shifters off the cross bike and onto the 29er if/when the Rival brifters come off back order :x

But the answer to your question is yes.
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby Baalzamon » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:25 pm

My Masi is a bit of a mongrel build but all SRAM.
SRAM apex rear with 11-32 cassette
Sram Rival FD
Sram Rival brifters
Why
Rival brifters & FD where cheaper than the apex counterparts and my shifting is sweet 8)
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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby skull » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:35 pm

silentbutdeadly wrote:
Bentnose wrote:So is the poor SRAM front shifting only on Apex or does it afflict other levels of SRAM?


I run Rival on my flat cross bike and the front shift is spot on with an X7 shifter. However, the X5 shifter on the 29er would be flat out moving dead leaves even with the assistance of a strong breeze let alone the FD - the less said about X5 the better. Hopefully (if Jenson comes to the party) I'll move the X7 shifters off the cross bike and onto the 29er if/when the Rival brifters come off back order :x

But the answer to your question is yes.


X9 and have zero shifting issues with the FD, actually zero issues at all with that grouppo.

Have red on my road bike, 2011, that had some FD shifting issues. Have now after 12 months got it dialed in, however shifting up onto the big ring under power can still be problematic.

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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby im_no_pro » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:02 pm

[2c]

I went from 105 with Ultegra RD to Rival. I wont be going back. Double tap is awesome, took a bit of getting used to but second nature now.

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Re: Groupset Hierachy (sram & shimano)

Postby __PG__ » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:34 pm

skull wrote:Have red on my road bike, 2011, that had some FD shifting issues. Have now after 12 months got it dialed in, however shifting up onto the big ring under power can still be problematic.

Have heard that some versions of the 2011 Red FD had a titanium cage that flexed. There were steel versions floating around. Alternatively some people just used the Force FD.
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